Is 442 dying

[llamafarmer]

The best 4-5-1 I've seen to this day though was the French team around the 1998 World Cup. But then they had Petit and Vieira sat behind ZZ, possibly the best midfield triumvirate ever.

But then Zizou would have made Bolton exciting! :bowdown:

 

[yanno]

Not pointing fingers, but there was an interesting discussion going on with several lengthy posts in the "Spurs Chat" version of this thread. I've no problem with the thread being moved to wherever the mods think it belongs, but couldn't the two threads have been merged to preserve all the posts?

Or is the other thread lurking somewhere else on SC?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I didn't do it mate, but it is definitely a poser about football rather than specific to Tottenham. We try to keep specific things affecting the club in Spurs Chat and everything else in GF, so guess thats why it got moved.


I agree, by the way. I've always had a soft spot for the 3-5-2, but have been shown time and again how it simply isn't the right formation to win on a consistent basis.

But if you read the post it is specific to tottenham. Very. More specific than a "movie poster thread" I would have thought. Or Espanyols goalkeeper thread.

You try to come up with something a little more thought challenging than "Robinson is a fat useless ****" and some "moderator" decides that it's too cerebral and moves it.

FFS.

 

[yanno]

B-C: several of us had responded in some detail to your interesting points. But those comments seem to have disappeared into the aether.

I hope SC can find the other thread and merge them.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

And now I've been infracted by Archibald and Crooks for calling the "person" that moved it a dickhead. Even though I didn't name names (as until my PM I didn't even know who it was)

 

[idlepete]

Yeah, where have the other posts gone? That was a good thread. Get merging!

 

[Bill_Oddie]

Hold your knickers. I'll see what I can locate in 'the back room'.

If you hear screeching and the blood-curdling sound of cannibalistic frenzy, it's just Geez clearing his nose in his sleep.

 

[Bill_Oddie]

Right, there you go.

You're right this was good chat. But don't go calling people (even indirectly) dickheads. Things get done a lot quicker and people stay a lot happier if things are pointed out politely and reasonably (such as yanno's remark).

 

[yanno]

Bill_Oddie - good stuff! :up:

I wonder what else is lurking in the SC "back room"?

Re: Legend10's comments about Fat Frank. I think he and Cahill are both examples of players who can't really play in a 4-4-2. And Benitez has had several seasons trying to accomodate Gerrard as a CM when you know he'd rather play him wide.

The big point is that there are very few top teams who play a 4-4-2 with a box-to-box CM playing alongside a holding CM - which Jol managed very successfully with JJ alongside Carrick.

The problem is that your CM gets overrun by the opposition as soon as the box-to-boxer runs forward and you lose the ball. This is why the most common formations in Spain are: 4-4-2 with two holding CMs, or 4-2-3-1, which is really just a way of saying the wide midfielders have a licence to attack and the CMs don't.

An example of a 4-2-3-1 is Real Madrid, where Gago and Diarra will both primarily sit. When Navas and Diego Capel are the wide midfielders for Sevilla, and Kanoute plays as the fulcrum, deeper than Fabiano, it's arguable that they're playing a 4-2-3-1 as well.

 

[idlepete]

Cheers Bill.

The big point is that there are very few top teams who play a 4-4-2 with a box-to-box CM playing alongside a holding CM - which Jol managed very successfully with JJ alongside Carrick.

It really only worked because he had Davids/Tainio tucking in making up a midfield three. We had the same problem last season where our most effective midfield had JJ, Zoko and Tainio tucking in again. It just wasn't solid enough with two wingers unless we were playing someone shit.

I reckon Carrick and JJ could run a CM on their own these days though.

 

[yanno]

It really only worked because he had Davids/Tainio tucking in making up a midfield three. We had the same problem last season where our most effective midfield had JJ, Zoko and Tainio tucking in again. It just wasn't solid enough with two wingers unless we were playing someone shit.

Yes - Davids or Taino usually made it 3 CMs in reality. It would have been interesting to see that team with an attacking LB like Bale, rather than YP Lee.

I increasingly think Ramos has been firefighting and assessing the squad since he's arrived. For instance, although Malbranque's been very committed and often played very well, I don't think Steed is Juande's idea of a LMer, and he'll probably see more playing time on the right flank next season.

Come August, I do think Hutton, Lennon, Steed and Gunter will provide us with lots of attacking flair down the right flank. And Bale, Gilberto and a new leftie such as Diego Capel will have us flying down the left flank. To play with such an attack-minded 4-4-2, both CMs have to be very disciplined - which is part of the point of B-C's 4-4-2 thread.

 

[Bobishism]

How is the 4-4-2 any more mathematically beautiful than a dynamic 4-5-1?

 

[idlepete]

How is the 4-4-2 any more mathematically beautiful than a dynamic 4-5-1?

I dunno, it just makes my special area go all tingly.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

How is the 4-4-2 any more mathematically beautiful than a dynamic 4-5-1?

It is about interactive partnerships all over the pitch, it's not about compromise or accomodation anywhere which is what 451 will almost always be. 442 says "we want to win" not "we don't want to loose". It does require discipline and organisation and it does require those players - especially the CM's to be very good. If you imagine a pitch divided into nine squares (3x3) it spreads your formation more evenly over every square. With 451 you cover some squares better than others. Thats why it's purer mathamatically. 442 doesn't have to be inflexible either as we see with Sevilla/Kanoute. And starting with 442 doesn't mean that's how you finish.If your coach is good.

 

[SpurSince57]

If we have two wingers continually pushing up ahead of the two central midfielders, won't we be playing a 4-2-4? :grin:

 

[deselina]

4-5-1 is the new 4-3-3

 

[Rocksuperstar]

4-5-1 is the new 4-3-3

Says the man who's sig appears to favour a 5-4-1... or is it a 3-2-4-1? :lol:

I like the flat four across the middle but, as stated, it mostly depends on the players at your disposal. Personally i think that playing a flat 4 across the middle, whilst effective, isn't as effective as it could be. It doesn't play 100% to our strengths.

Take Christine Ronaldo, for example - the ladyboy could play that wing like a traditional winger but instead plays waaay deep, pretty much hanging around in a wingback position when he's not on the ball - this gives the opposition two options to deal with him. They can push further up and risk leaving gaps open behind them, or they can hang off of him and give him all the time he needs.

If they give him room then he's got all the time he needs to build up to speed and, by the time he meets the first oppo, he's skinned them and gone. He appears to see their midfield as nothing more than a minor hurdle - his target is the touchline.

By comparison, Lennon plays a long way forward, waiting to receive the ball somewhere up around the halfway line meaning that, if he does get the ball, he's often got no room to maneuver, or get a head of steam up, before he's under pressure.

Maybe the 4-4-2 is the future, but it needs to be flexible and the players need to be aware enough to adapt as they see fit, not only when the manager decides to reorganise.

 

[yanno]

If we have two wingers continually pushing up ahead of the two central midfielders, won't we be playing a 4-2-4? :grin:

Technically a 4-2-3-1, SS57, if the linking striker is dropping a bit deeper.... :wink:

But as many have said, formations should be fluid. With Ramos, I think the crux of it is that he wants to attack at pace down the flanks, with both FBs and wide midfielders able to get to the byline and cross. That leaves the team wide open to a counterattack if the move breaks down, which is why his CMs at Sevilla were very disciplined. Their job was to control the middle of the pitch and provide cover when the wide players bombed forward.

If that's correct, the good news is that a box-to-box CM like Fat Frank will never play for Spurs under Ramos...

 

[yanno]

Our fitness coach, Marcos Alvarez, has just confirmed Don Juande's desire to attack down the flanks here:

"[Ramos] came with his philosophy - to play a quick, passing game with wingers, but compact," Alvarez told Guillem.

http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11675_3288587,00.html

 

[Legend10]

Technically a 4-2-3-1, SS57, if the linking striker is dropping a bit deeper.... :wink:

But as many have said, formations should be fluid. With Ramos, I think the crux of it is that he wants to attack at pace down the flanks, with both FBs and wide midfielders able to get to the byline and cross. That leaves the team wide open to a counterattack if the move breaks down, which is why his CMs at Sevilla were very disciplined. Their job was to control the middle of the pitch and provide cover when the wide players bombed forward.

If that's correct, the good news is that a box-to-box CM like Fat Frank will never play for Spurs under Ramos...

Do you mean that 'edge of their own centre circle to box' CM like fat Frank will never play for Spurs under Ramos?:wink: