Eric Dier

[Phil_2.0]

Takes more than being a better passer to be an upgrade on Dier though.

Yes it depends on how good his organization is and tactical understanding of the game and that is quite difficult to quantify from the outside.

Playing in the middle of 3 he wouldn't have to do much defending. Lenglet could be our version of David Luiz when Conte won the title with him as the middle CB during his time at Chelsa.

 

[CantSmileWithoutYou]

Lenglet would be an upgrade on Dier as a much better passer.

Has Dier run off with your missus or something? You're obsessed with finding issues and replacing him...
Let it go man, embrace it, because I love Eric Dier, and Eric Dier loves me...

 

[Phil_2.0]

Has Dier run off with your missus or something? You're obsessed with finding issues and replacing him...
Let it go man, embrace it, because I love Eric Dier, and Eric Dier loves me...

I think theres little chance Dier gets replaced. I have no problem with him playing next year and believe he is a decent player to have in the middle of the back 3.

I checked the thread and saw a comment about Lenglet being in a similar position to Dier was a few seasons ago so I responded because I agree.

What will really blow your mind is that Dier is probably going to be at the top of his value as a player pretty soon under Conte and we will never get a better chance to cash in on him. When Conte leaves in a year or two and the next manager comes in and wants us to play 4 at the back again and we have a 30 year old Dier having to go into the channels, receive the ball on his left foot in half spaces and jump out of the line and press we will be fucked.

 

[synththfc]

Us under Conte

View attachment 112268

weird, could’ve sworn that role is “easy” to play…

 

[C0YS]

I think Dier has done well too and I can see that with my eyes but its an easy role to play. Stats just confirm what Dier is, solid above-average defender. There are better passers, better goalscoring and more athletic defenders out there that could be an upgrade on Dier. As an example If we had Sergio Ramos in the middle of defence, we'd get 5 goals from that position and some very strong leadership.

At the minute from Dier we get good organisation and an above-average passer. It's nice but it can be improved on and make us a better team if like I said we could get goals from that position or someone who is an elite passer.

The centre of a back three is not an easy role, not at all. They have to be intelligent, they have to be dominant in the air and good markers, they are the principle organisers of the defense and the player who begins most of the attacks from the back.

It's arguably both the hardest and most important role in a back three. The other positions are allowed to press the ball higher up and are 'released' from a lot of responsibility. The middle CB doesn't, however, have to deal with many one on one situations and rarely does he need to meet players further up the pitch.

But it's not an easy role to play, and it's not like, ohh let's just put a defender who can score goals (how many of these CBs are actually in world football, apart from Sergio Ramos, who frankly I have many doubts if he is actually good enough at this point) or athletic players sure, but athleticism in what way?

There is no one way to play a back three, some teams play with all three players pressing, some play with a quick sweeper in the middle, more like an extra man, while the other defenders are given principle playmaking roles (like under Porch) but in Conte's system the middle defender is a sitter, and to hit, just like as it is in midfield, the most important attribute is intelligence.

I don't think it's easy to 'upgrade' on Dier, I think we do need another defender who can play centrally and possibly compete with him. But his role is arguably the hardest in defense not the easiest, yes it is a role that protects Dier from exposing his limitations but that doesn't mean it's an easy role to play, it just means he is a good fit for that role.

 

[C0YS]

View attachment 112256

These are the stats. Like Coady Dier doesn't have to do much actual defending. He role is about control, communication and support.

As I said above, if we could find a player that can do that and give you 5 goals like Sergio Ramos it would be an upgrade orr an extremely good passer/communicator. Dier is fine. Could be better though.

I'm sorry, that is what defending is about. Defenders rarely make that many tackles, not when compared to midfielders. A defenders job is largely a positional one beyond anything else. Generally if a defender is making a lot of tackles and interceptions it's a sign that they are playing in a team doing poorly. Obviously it depends, in a back three the other two defenders are able to press up and actually win the ball, something which in a back two is usually avoided, which is why you can play, say, a fullback in the position as a lot of the skills are actually ones often employed by fullbacks, or you can employ very aggressive defenders who no longer need to worry about vacating space behind them. But that isnt actually any more part of defending as the positional aspect of it, infact I would argue it is much less. There is a reason Davies and Romero have a license, in fact expectation to push high up the pitch when facing a low block, they aren't traditional defenders in this system.

 

[HildoSpur]

I don't see that we need to upgrade Dier at all to be honest as he is clearly very good in that role. What we do need is adequate replacement for him if he is injured and Sanchez has done well but we don't have an obvious leader at the back other than Dier.

 

[rabbikeane]

Its easy to play the Dier role except for when our defence fell apart without him

Want to champion for Dier, but not sure I agree with all of the point you're making.
Main reason the defence fell apart was because there was no one to step in who can do the same role.
Another organizer would likely have kept it together, but we had non.

 

[rabbikeane]

Lenglet would be an upgrade on Dier as a much better passer.

Surely just a candidate for Davies's spot, I don't see Lenglet being the plug in the middle

 

[mil1lion]

Want to champion for Dier, but not sure I agree with all of the point you're making.
Main reason the defence fell apart was because there was no one to step in who can do the same role.
Another organizer would likely have kept it together, but we had non.

This was my whole point though in response to suggestions it's easy to play his role
We've kept it tight with Dier in defence so not sure what more we can do other than have another option for when he's out
People are talking like it's a problem position. If anything our biggest weakness in defence is from set pieces and people not picking up their man. I'm not sure Dier has been one of those responsible for that though. Yet when Dier was out we had more issues defending in open play.

 

[Phil_2.0]

I'm sorry, that is what defending is about. Defenders rarely make that many tackles, not when compared to midfielders. A defenders job is largely a positional one beyond anything else. Generally if a defender is making a lot of tackles and interceptions it's a sign that they are playing in a team doing poorly. Obviously it depends, in a back three the other two defenders are able to press up and actually win the ball, something which in a back two is usually avoided, which is why you can play, say, a fullback in the position as a lot of the skills are actually ones often employed by fullbacks, or you can employ very aggressive defenders who no longer need to worry about vacating space behind them. But that isnt actually any more part of defending as the positional aspect of it, infact I would argue it is much less. There is a reason Davies and Romero have a license, in fact expectation to push high up the pitch when facing a low block, they aren't traditional defenders in this system.

Romero is one of the highest tacklers and interceptors in the league. DIer one of the lowest, Davies way below average. Romero is an excellent defender.

The centre of a back three is not an easy role, not at all. They have to be intelligent, they have to be dominant in the air and good markers, they are the principle organisers of the defense and the player who begins most of the attacks from the back.

It's arguably both the hardest and most important role in a back three. The other positions are allowed to press the ball higher up and are 'released' from a lot of responsibility. The middle CB doesn't, however, have to deal with many one on one situations and rarely does he need to meet players further up the pitch.

But it's not an easy role to play, and it's not like, ohh let's just put a defender who can score goals (how many of these CBs are actually in world football, apart from Sergio Ramos, who frankly I have many doubts if he is actually good enough at this point) or athletic players sure, but athleticism in what way?

There is no one way to play a back three, some teams play with all three players pressing, some play with a quick sweeper in the middle, more like an extra man, while the other defenders are given principle playmaking roles (like under Porch) but in Conte's system the middle defender is a sitter, and to hit, just like as it is in midfield, the most important attribute is intelligence.

I don't think it's easy to 'upgrade' on Dier, I think we do need another defender who can play centrally and possibly compete with him. But his role is arguably the hardest in defense not the easiest, yes it is a role that protects Dier from exposing his limitations but that doesn't mean it's an easy role to play, it just means he is a good fit for that role.

Dier was bad for 2 years playing in a 4. He couldn't cope. Now he is hidden and can stand still and talk his way through the game. He's fairly good at it, there are players that would be better in a limited role. David Luiz prime example of a player that was able to hide in that role and use his passing and communication to hide his madness.

Southgate who was the master of playing in a Back 3 himself said about leaving Dier out and the reason was that role of playing in the middle of a 3 is very specific. It is, doesn't mean it's difficult. Players play there when they have significant weaknesses that can be hidden and it allows them to use their other skills to help the team.

Playing with 3 defenders makes defending easier for the people involved. I mean that's just logic, Dier has looked better because hes not as exposed. Hes not suddenly learnt to be a great defender in the space of a few months, his significant weaknesses as a player have been hidden. We could do better if we had a better passer or someone who could drive into midfield with the ball.

If Dier was such an amazing organizer why was our defence a shambles when we played 4 ATB for 2 years?

 

[mil1lion]

Funny I thought his issue playing in a back 4 was playing on the left. He never looked comfortable that side, also struggled for England there. The central position was always his best and it's where he was most comfortable in midfield when we played a high line. He's just one of those that is at his best central where he can see the picture in front. Dropping into a back 3 was just a natural transition for him.

 

[Thenewcat]

If Dier was such an amazing organizer why was our defence a shambles when we played 4 ATB for 2 years?

The simple answer is it wasn’t. We conceded 45 goals in 2020/21, only 1 more than United who finished second, and less than West Ham and Leicester who finished above us. In 2019/20, we conceded 47, less than Chelsea who made the champions league. Add in the fact that Dier only converted to CB full time after the Covid lockdown and your claim that he can’t defend in a 4 has even less merit. He’s a very good defender

 

[Phil_2.0]

The simple answer is it wasn’t. We conceded 45 goals in 2020/21, only 1 more than United who finished second, and less than West Ham and Leicester who finished above us. In 2019/20, we conceded 47, less than Chelsea who made the champions league. Add in the fact that Dier only converted to CB full time after the Covid lockdown and your claim that he can’t defend in a 4 has even less merit. He’s a very good defender

Why are you picking random other teams to compare our defence too?

Using the term shambles loosely when you consider our record for a team as big as ours

21-22 4th xGA (Pre Conte we ranked 12th xGA vs 4th xGA after he joined)

20-21 - 11th in xGA

19-20 - 10th xGA


Very average totals when Dier was playing in defence in a 4, we were awful by the levels a team of our standard should be at. The improvement this year is all down to Conte and the system he introduced that improved and hid very average defenders like Dier and Davies.

 

[SanDiegoSpur]

Why are you picking random other teams to compare our defence too?

Using the term shambles loosely when you consider our record for a team as big as ours

21-22 4th xGA (Pre Conte we ranked 12th xGA vs 4th xGA after he joined)

20-21 - 11th in xGA

19-20 - 10th xGA


Very average totals when Dier was playing in defence in a 4, we were awful by the levels a team of our standard should be at. The improvement this year is all down to Conte and the system he introduced that improved and hid very average defenders like Dier and Davies.

He started 10 games in the league at CB in 19-20

 

[Phil_2.0]

He started 10 games in the league at CB in 19-20

Couldn't even get into a weak defence regularly in 19-20

 

[Aleks]

ok seriously, did Dier shag your missus or something?

 

[McFlash]

I think theres little chance Dier gets replaced. I have no problem with him playing next year and believe he is a decent player to have in the middle of the back 3.

I checked the thread and saw a comment about Lenglet being in a similar position to Dier was a few seasons ago so I responded because I agree.

What will really blow your mind is that Dier is probably going to be at the top of his value as a player pretty soon under Conte and we will never get a better chance to cash in on him. When Conte leaves in a year or two and the next manager comes in and wants us to play 4 at the back again and we have a 30 year old Dier having to go into the channels, receive the ball on his left foot in half spaces and jump out of the line and press we will be fucked.

What? So we should be selling our best players when they are at "peak value"?
Should probably look to ship Son out then and we probably missed the boat with Kane!

We get it, you have an irrational dislike of Dier but you really do seem to be finding any angle to prove that he should be sold.

Tellingly, you're pretty much the only person here that thinks that.

 

[SpursSince1980]

Why are you picking random other teams to compare our defence too?

Using the term shambles loosely when you consider our record for a team as big as ours

21-22 4th xGA (Pre Conte we ranked 12th xGA vs 4th xGA after he joined)

20-21 - 11th in xGA

19-20 - 10th xGA


Very average totals when Dier was playing in defence in a 4, we were awful by the levels a team of our standard should be at. The improvement this year is all down to Conte and the system he introduced that improved and hid very average defenders like Dier and Davies.

Gotta admit. I'm impressed with your commitment to this argument. Even if it is a little weird. (Sorry, but making out Dier and Davies to be average in this system is wrongheaded, as they have both been excellent... the results speak for themself). But, hella props for sticking to your guns. Good for you!

 

[Phil_2.0]

What? So we should be selling our best players when they are at "peak value"?
Should probably look to ship Son out then and we probably missed the boat with Kane!

We get it, you have an irrational dislike of Dier but you really do seem to be finding any angle to prove that he should be sold.

Tellingly, you're pretty much the only person here that thinks that.

There are lots of people that believe he is average. Go back and look at this thread from a year ago and people were saying hes complete shit. Its really funny to go back and read how bad people think he was.

Conte is one of the best coaches in the world and has made Dier a better player in a position his weaknesses can be hidden. Dier isn't a magical player thats learnt how to be a centre back in a few months. Hes playing for a top 5 coach in the world in a role that protects him, thats how good Conte is.

So I don't consider him one of our best players like Kane or Son who have performed when we haven't had the best coach in the world at our club and therefore I believe as an average player thats now reaching the top of his value you COULD make an argument this is the time to cash in because you can get someone who isn't average and younger.

BUT I don't want him sold, I think he does a decent job for us in the back 3 and we have 6 more pressing positions we need to buy in. This conversation was started by me showing a stat of how little involved Dier was in actively defending this season. He seems to be a good organizer, doesn't chip in with goals, above average passer and not dominant aerially. We could improve him but its not a pressing issue.