ENIC...

[Led's Zeppelin]

Perhaps mine is a tiny minority view, but I’d be almost equally unhappy about any club including my own being bought by any country , no matter how spotless its behaviour.

I wasn’t happy back when Jack Walker bought the league title for Blackburn Rovers. It wasn’t a club getting wealthy as a result of its ability to attract more supporters, leading to greater spending power. It was external wealth taking the game away from supporters.

This has since become a much bigger issue with Chelsea and Man City, and now probably Newcastle, simply using national resources ( not football-generated income) to buy trophies. This is why the trophies are devalued.

The human rights records are a different issue, which we can debate separately, in my view, because as has been said, no nation is spotless. But no nation is a football club!

If the nations involved happen to have a dubious human rights record, all the more reason to object, but from my point of view, the main problem is a sporting problem; it is simply that ”success” is no longer anything directly to do with sport. it’s almost exclusively to do with entirely non-sporting wealth.

 

[Albertbarich]

We can do something about that though. The average Qatari can’t vote for a different government. It’s an absolute monarchy. And while there may be poverty and poor conditions, I think it’s a bit sick to compare that to the kind of thing that goes on in Qatar. We can have some direct comparisons. How many died making Our Stadium, the Olympic Stadium, the Emirates and the Etihad? You could probably count the numbers on your fingers and toes. You’d need a lot of fucking toes to count the thousands that were worked to death in the desert heat to build the World Cup stadiums though.

So no, that kind of whatabouterry doesn’t wash with me.

It's not whataboutary to believe it's not a Hollywood style good versus evil argument.

They do some messed up things, so do we. They do things I'd like to see changed, so do we.

I would think you would know that with the amount of time you spend in the politics thread.

I found out yesterday that they're the largest stakeholder in the company I work for. Should I quit? Are we all going to go down lists of companies owned by them and boycott them all?

And no it's different. The bull shit about withdrawing from everyday life argument doesn't hold up because football clubs aren't the pillars of community they once were. We have a sponsor supporting Chinese rule in Hong Kong , a chairman who is shady to say the least and we play clubs owned by far worse than this lot.

If you can hold your nose when you use your smartphone I'm sure you will manage it when watching spurs.

 

[mattstev2000]

I don't really see the value in trophies won just because your club gets bought out or a massive cash injection from somewhere. You as a club haven't really achieved anything, you've just spent someone else's money - where's the achievement there?

It's why none of Man City's trophies really bother me or register, any club in the league that got that money handed to them at that time would be in the same position Man City are now.

That's before you even take into account where the money comes from.

 

[dontcallme]

There's always a leak like this when the fans are disgruntled with Levy and ENIC.

As for sports washing - this country is not one to speak, our consumerism leads to injustices around the under developed world (like your iPhone made on the cheap by a Chinese working 60 hours a week and powered by battery with lithium dug up in soul destroying conditions in Bolivia etc ). The UK have a horrible history when it comes to human rights with slavery, imperialism, death penalties (hangings stopped in the 50s or 60s), inventing the current class system, giving birth to the industrial revolution (planet has suffered from that), turning a blind eye for economic reasons (Chinese human rights issues) many cultural divisions, invaded something like 90% of the world's countries (albeit they were a different country or part of another at that time).

I do feel uncomfortable with QSI but how are ENIC saints and how can the UK preach with a clean conscious? Didn't Joe's Lewis have his helicopter blown up on an attempt on his life? Who attempted that and why? A millionaire's world is very questionable (Ricky Gervais's last awards hosting summing it up) but a billionaire's World is a totally different kettle of fish.

I really don’t get this thought process that individuals can’t take moral stances. The whataboutery used by many is frankly pathetic.

If I knew more about Lewis I might be opposed to him. But without any real knowledge I’m not going to criticise. I’m definitely not attack him because god helicopter was blown up, that’s excessively weird.

There’s a lot of sport washing and people gaining ownership of major British institutions. Many don’t like this. The fact that Britain doesn’t have a morally good past or present really has no relevance.

 

[Albertbarich]

There’s a lot of sport washing and people gaining ownership of major British institutions. Many don’t like this. The fact that Britain doesn’t have a morally good past or present really has no relevance.

Is it sportswashing or is it rich entities investing money?

A quick bit of research would reveal most of us have no idea who and what they own .

Even the world cup. They got so much shit over it if they did it to wash away bad publicity it backfired massively.

People will buy their gas /oil / whatever they got rich off either way as shown by our government. so they don't need it for that.

Take Man City I'm not even sure what UAE country it is owns them. They're cheats that's for sure but what are they washing? Nobody is talking about the country .

Mega rich people buy shit all the time and whether we want to admit it or not Tottenham Hotspur is first and foremost a company to invest in , it ceased being an hold fashioned football club decades ago.

 

[Gb160]

Has it? I'm not against the investment but it won't change my opinions on the country - and I assume that applies to many people.

This is what I don’t understand and comes back to this famous ‘line in the sand’ that we all draw somewhere.
I use all the software and products made by Arab invested companies, their supermarkets etc like I would imagine every single one of us does....but that doesn’t mean for one second that I don’t believe most of these places aren’t barbaric and in screaming need of reform.
But why draw that line in the sand when it comes to investment in Sport? Surely by using any Arab backed products/services/shops etc we’re all turning a blind eye.

I don’t buy the ‘consumerism/capitalist/no choice’ argument either. You’re either part of the problem or you’re not. You do have a choice, you don’t get to draw your own line.

I mentioned this before and got a few negs, but I feel that’s just some people who I’ve made feel uncomfortable with the choices that they make, and they don’t like this being highlighted.

 

[ginola99]

I really don’t get this thought process that individuals can’t take moral stances. The whataboutery used by many is frankly pathetic.

If I knew more about Lewis I might be opposed to him. But without any real knowledge I’m not going to criticise. I’m definitely not attack him because god helicopter was blown up, that’s excessively weird.

There’s a lot of sport washing and people gaining ownership of major British institutions. Many don’t like this. The fact that Britain doesn’t have a morally good past or present really has no relevance.

I think it does. But happy to leave it there.

 

[Tucker]

It's not whataboutary to believe it's not a Hollywood style good versus evil argument.

They do some messed up things, so do we. They do things I'd like to see changed, so do we.

I would think you would know that with the amount of time you spend in the politics thread.

I found out yesterday that they're the largest stakeholder in the company I work for. Should I quit? Are we all going to go down lists of companies owned by them and boycott them all?

And no it's different. The bull shit about withdrawing from everyday life argument doesn't hold up because football clubs aren't the pillars of community they once were. We have a sponsor supporting Chinese rule in Hong Kong , a chairman who is shady to say the least and we play clubs owned by far worse than this lot.

If you can hold your nose when you use your smartphone I'm sure you will manage it when watching spurs.

Of course it’s whataboutery. You’re comparing things that are completely and utterly imbalanced. Nobody in this thread or the other one is saying Britain is perfect, or that we don’t all make compromises in our lives to get by.

We may be imperfect, we may have our own social issues, but at least we don’t actively encourage a literal slave trade, or persecute people for being gay. This shouldn’t need explaining. I shouldn’t need to explain to you why 6000 migrant deaths building their stadiums are a bigger problem than immigrant poverty in the U.K. Both are bad, but one is much much worse.

This is the kind of mental gymnastics that we’ve all mocked when we have seen it on City and Newcastle forums/twitter.

Modern life is dirty and we are all forced to buy oil, or gas from countries we would rather not have to do business with. We’d all rather our smartphones were built in ethical factories, and our cheap t-shirts and trainers weren’t made in vietnamese sweat shops. But most of these things are what we all need to do to get on in life, we don’t have much of a choice.

Supporting Tottenham Hotspur isn’t a necessity in my life. I like it, and it sometimes brings me a lot of happiness. But I don’t need to do it, I don’t need them to have Qatari money in order to get on in life or survive the next week. I don’t need them to buy trophies and devalue the sport I love in doing so.

I assume you need your job, there’s not a lot you can do about who invests in the company you work for.

As fans of a football club, that isn’t essential to our day to day lives, we all have the choice of walking away.

 

[mil1lion]

Their sportswashing isn't going to work on us when we fail to win anything still. That will teach them.

 

[Tucker]

This is what I don’t understand and comes back to this famous ‘line in the sand’ that we all draw somewhere.
I use all the software and products made by Arab invested companies, their supermarkets etc like I would imagine every single one of us does....but that doesn’t mean for one second that I don’t believe most of these places aren’t barbaric and in screaming need of reform.
But why draw that line in the sand when it comes to investment in Sport? Surely by using any Arab backed products/services/shops etc we’re all turning a blind eye.

I don’t buy the ‘consumerism/capitalist/no choice’ argument either. You’re either part of the problem or you’re not. You do have a choice, you don’t get to draw your own line.

I mentioned this before and got a few negs, but I feel that’s just some people who I’ve made feel uncomfortable with the choices that they make, and they don’t like this being highlighted.

I negged you because it’s a bullshit argument. Just because you’re repeating it doesn’t make it any less bullshit.

 

[IfiHadTheWings]

Of course it’s whataboutery. You’re comparing things that are completely and utterly imbalanced. Nobody in this thread or the other one is saying Britain is perfect, or that we don’t all make compromises in our lives to get by.

We may be imperfect, we may have our own social issues, but at least we don’t actively encourage a literal slave trade, or persecute people for being gay. This shouldn’t need explaining. I shouldn’t need to explain to you why 6000 migrant deaths building their stadiums are a bigger problem than immigrant poverty in the U.K. Both are bad, but one is much much worse.

This is the kind of mental gymnastics that we’ve all mocked when we have seen it on City and Newcastle forums/twitter.

Modern life is dirty and we are all forced to buy oil, or gas from countries we would rather not have to do business with. We’d all rather our smartphones were built in ethical factories, and our cheap t-shirts and trainers weren’t made in vietnamese sweat shops. But most of these things are what we all need to do to get on in life, we don’t have much of a choice.

Supporting Tottenham Hotspur isn’t a necessity in my life. I like it, and it sometimes brings me a lot of happiness. But I don’t need to do it, I don’t need them to have Qatari money in order to get on in life or survive the next week. I don’t need them to buy trophies and devalue the sport I love in doing so.

I assume you need your job, there’s not a lot you can do about who invests in the company you work for.

As fans of a football club, that isn’t essential to our day to day lives, we all have the choice of walking away.

Yeah but only wimpy little quitters like @scat1620 actually do it.

 

[dontcallme]

I think it does. But happy to leave it there.

Apologies for quoting you again when you have said you’re happy to leave it. I just want to make a point rather than debate you further.

I think it’s fair for people to judge individual cases on their own merit. If this group are going to buy a stake then it’s acceptable for fans to want to know who they are, what the intentions behind their investment are and what kind of people they are.

I really think British colonialism is a separate issue. Being against Qatari ownership does not mean you dismiss any negatives of the British empire.

 

[rossdapep]

I don't really see the value in trophies won just because your club gets bought out or a massive cash injection from somewhere. You as a club haven't really achieved anything, you've just spent someone else's money - where's the achievement there?

It's why none of Man City's trophies really bother me or register, any club in the league that got that money handed to them at that time would be in the same position Man City are now.

That's before you even take into account where the money comes from.

Whilst I do completely agree with this stance and City have indeed bought these titles. I would say with Newcastle now in the pot, there would be 3 teams so it wouldn't be as simple as to just 'buy the trophies".

We've also been knocking on the door, so it's not like we are in the same situation both Newcastle and City were beforehand which was nowhere.

 

[dontcallme]

Of course it’s whataboutery. You’re comparing things that are completely and utterly imbalanced. Nobody in this thread or the other one is saying Britain is perfect, or that we don’t all make compromises in our lives to get by.

We may be imperfect, we may have our own social issues, but at least we don’t actively encourage a literal slave trade, or persecute people for being gay. This shouldn’t need explaining. I shouldn’t need to explain to you why 6000 migrant deaths building their stadiums are a bigger problem than immigrant poverty in the U.K. Both are bad, but one is much much worse.

This is the kind of mental gymnastics that we’ve all mocked when we have seen it on City and Newcastle forums/twitter.

Modern life is dirty and we are all forced to buy oil, or gas from countries we would rather not have to do business with. We’d all rather our smartphones were built in ethical factories, and our cheap t-shirts and trainers weren’t made in vietnamese sweat shops. But most of these things are what we all need to do to get on in life, we don’t have much of a choice.

Supporting Tottenham Hotspur isn’t a necessity in my life. I like it, and it sometimes brings me a lot of happiness. But I don’t need to do it, I don’t need them to have Qatari money in order to get on in life or survive the next week. I don’t need them to buy trophies and devalue the sport I love in doing so.

I assume you need your job, there’s not a lot you can do about who invests in the company you work for.

As fans of a football club, that isn’t essential to our day to day lives, we all have the choice of walking away.

Thanks. You said what I wanted to but didn’t have time to go into at this time.

 

[Albertbarich]

Of course it’s whataboutery. You’re comparing things that are completely and utterly imbalanced. Nobody in this thread or the other one is saying Britain is perfect, or that we don’t all make compromises in our lives to get by.

We may be imperfect, we may have our own social issues, but at least we don’t actively encourage a literal slave trade, or persecute people for being gay. This shouldn’t need explaining. I shouldn’t need to explain to you why 6000 migrant deaths building their stadiums are a bigger problem than immigrant poverty in the U.K. Both are bad, but one is much much worse.

This is the kind of mental gymnastics that we’ve all mocked when we have seen it on City and Newcastle forums/twitter.

Modern life is dirty and we are all forced to buy oil, or gas from countries we would rather not have to do business with. We’d all rather our smartphones were built in ethical factories, and our cheap t-shirts and trainers weren’t made in vietnamese sweat shops. But most of these things are what we all need to do to get on in life, we don’t have much of a choice.

Supporting Tottenham Hotspur isn’t a necessity in my life. I like it, and it sometimes brings me a lot of happiness. But I don’t need to do it, I don’t need them to have Qatari money in order to get on in life or survive the next week. I don’t need them to buy trophies and devalue the sport I love in doing so.

I assume you need your job, there’s not a lot you can do about who invests in the company you work for.

As fans of a football club, that isn’t essential to our day to day lives, we all have the choice of walking away.

We all have a line and I was where you are not long ago.

But when it's everywhere and I mean everywhere what is the point in me cutting out my lifelong passion?

If you think you can give up spurs then fairplay but I'm at the stage where if I was going to give up spurs for it then I should probably do it now as football as a whole is awash with it.

 

[Gb160]

I negged you because it’s a bullshit argument. Just because you’re repeating it doesn’t make it any less bullshit.

Sorry my post made you feel that way x

 

[arunspurs]

Perhaps mine is a tiny minority view, but I’d be almost equally unhappy about any club including my own being bought by any country , no matter how spotless its behaviour.

I wasn’t happy back when Jack Walker bought the league title for Blackburn Rovers. It wasn’t a club getting wealthy as a result of its ability to attract more supporters, leading to greater spending power. It was external wealth taking the game away from supporters.

This has since become a much bigger issue with Chelsea and Man City, and now probably Newcastle, simply using national resources ( not football-generated income) to buy trophies. This is why the trophies are devalued.

The human rights records are a different issue, which we can debate separately, in my view, because as has been said, no nation is spotless. But no nation is a football club!

If the nations involved happen to have a dubious human rights record, all the more reason to object, but from my point of view, the main problem is a sporting problem; it is simply that ”success” is no longer anything directly to do with sport. it’s almost exclusively to do with entirely non-sporting wealth.

Leaving QSI out of this for a bit...
Spurs are already worth 3bn+ , none of it came because owner invested money. We organically grew from 20m club to 3bn.

If a takeover comes for 4bn, I view it as a investment done in interms of value we have created till now. If this was any business, this would be welcomed by all.

My problem with money in football is - how it transforms a club with debt & problems, overnight into heavyweights. This is my problem with likes of Chelsea or City who got rich because they were lucky not because they were competent

 

[Tucker]

Sorry my post made you feel that way x

It’s ok babe.

 

[dontcallme]

We all have a line and I was where you are not long ago.

But when it's everywhere and I mean everywhere what is the point in me cutting out my lifelong passion?

If you think you can give up spurs then fairplay but I'm at the stage where if I was going to give up spurs for it then I should probably do it now as football as a whole is awash with it.

I’d love to give up Spurs. I feel like it’s an addiction over a passion.

I’m currently meant to be working but instead discussing the merits of Qatari investment into the club and whether British colonialism is relevant to this.

The investment probably isn’t even going to happen.

 

[Albertbarich]

I’d love to give up Spurs. I feel like it’s an addiction over a passion.

I’m currently meant to be working but instead discussing the merits of Qatari investment into the club and whether British colonialism is relevant to this.

The investment probably isn’t even going to happen.

An idea when Stratford was being mooted I loved was setting up a fan version of Spurs in the non leagues.

Something like Hotspur of Tottenham.

I'd have loved that