Doesn't Danny Rose Teach Us Anything About Ryan Mason?

[danielneeds]

I'm sick to death with the bashing of Mason after a few poor games. "He's not good enough", "We'll never be a top 4 side with him in midfield", "He's a Championship player" are the usual junk spouted.

Yet on the left hand side we have Danny Rose, now getting universally praised as the best player on the pitch most weeks, and our 2nd most improved player after Kane. Wasn't this the same Danny Rose who 12 months ago was getting caned week in, week out as "not good enough", with constant calling to upgrade the LB position?

What's changed? i would argue that it's that he's been given time, and the confidence of his manager, he's had time to figure out his game, and learn from some mistakes. Like Mason, he came into the PL in a position that was relatively unfamiliar to him, having played a lot of his development football in midfield, of course it was going to take time to learn the art of playing fullback.

Similarly Mason spent much of his youth career as a number 10, relatively free of defensive responsibility. Playing in a midfield two with another novice in Bentelab he's having to make decisions all the time, in fact the biggest part of playing midfield is making decisions - where to stand, who to pick up, what runs to track, when to break forward? It's like a game of chess, and of course inexperienced players get it wrong. And when they do, their confidence gets knocked, and they start taking an extra touch and things go from bad to worse.

The point is, Mason hasn't suddenly become shit, and while he may eventually be replaced in our starting XI by Alli or someone else bought in, us as fans should be giving him more time and space to develop as a player. This is why so few managers play young players, because you need to invest on them long term, and accept that there will be dips in their development. It's far easier to go with a seasoned pro who knows his own game inside and out.

 

[Shadydan]

Whilst I agree with the tone of the thread and I don't like to actively bash our players the difference here is that Rose had actually played on or near this level before when he was at Sunderland and under AVB before he got injured. The concerns for Mason is that this is his first full season in the league and he has never played at such a high level before and is making some elementary errors so whilst some of the criticisms are typically OTT I think there is enough to warrant concern.

 

[Imnotacticalgenius]

Agree with TS. Its not only Mason but i also feel Chadli has improved over last season as do Lamela now. Don't ever be quick to "flock" our new players.......The Rose story and Bale story has taught us it pays to be patient. COYS!!!

 

[poc]

It should though I doubt very much whether will save him. Thing is having Bentaleb playing so well along side him it is showing up his limitations more I think.

 

[WiganSpur]

Whilst hardly anyone is advocating we sell him, he needs to improve and quickly. I'm afraid it's the harsh realities of top level football. I'm not sure he's had one good game since Liverpool away.

He's not a young lad, he's 23 years old. He's making simple mistakes still. Yesterday a few times he had plenty of time to make simple balls and gave the ball away or slowed down the play with unnecessary clipped passes.

Bentaleb's been given similar time but he's really starting to kick on now and get more consistency. Yesterday Bentaleb looked the far more accomplished footballer.

I'm not saying we give up on him at all, i'm all for patience. He was very good for us when he started out, but with this lengthy dip in performances he needs to prove himself and quickly if he wants to convince us he's got what it takes. It would be extremely risky to persist with him in the league starting XI next season, although I would very much like him to continue his development in the Europa League like Kane did. Do well in that and then we can think about bringing him back in the fold.

 

[Gbspurs]

I haven't seen a huge amount of bashing but CM in the premier league is one of the most high profile positions so as a club we need the players there to be the best we can get.

Mason has been as good as he can be this season (IMO) so is that good enough? I don't think anyone is suggesting we should sell but its a position we could do with strengthening as clearly Bentaleb is the better prospect of the 2.

 

[danielneeds]

Whilst hardly anyone is advocating we sell him, he needs to improve and quickly. I'm afraid it's the harsh realities of top level football. I'm not sure he's had one good game since Liverpool away.

He's not a young lad, he's 23 years old. He's making simple mistakes still. Yesterday a few times he had plenty of time to make simple balls and gave the ball away or slowed down the play with unnecessary clipped passes.

Bentaleb's been given similar time but he's really starting to kick on now and get more consistency. Yesterday Bentaleb looked the far more accomplished footballer.

I'm not saying we give up on him at all, i'm all for patience. He was very good for us when he started out, but with this lengthy dip in performances he needs to prove himself and quickly if he wants to convince us he's got what it takes. It would be extremely risky to persist with him in the league starting XI next season, although I would very much like him to continue his development in the Europa League like Kane did. Do well in that and then we can think about bringing him back in the fold.

His age is somewhat irrelevant, as this is still his first PL season. Bentelab has had almost another 12 months more of 1st team football, and a World Cup to learn from. If you remember rightly at the tail end of his first season, people were asking if Bentelab was Sherwood's rent boy, such was his dip in form.

 

[wiggo24]

IMO he's a perfect squad player.
He loves the club, works his socks off, is homegrown, and wouldn't need huge wages.

However, I think the reason Poch has played him so much is because he's the only CM we've got who fits his "philosophy"... Passing forward, quickly, with high intensity.

I think we need the same type of player as Mason, but just a slightly better version.

 

[mpickard2087]

The problem is that he isn't a central midfielder in a two. He's a box to box player who needs license to get forward and arrive late in the thick of the action. In a cm3 you'd be able to give him this license, plus still be able to count on him putting in a shift and helping out defensively/with the pressing effort, without him having to worry about being disciplined positionally.

He's missed a couple of great chances against City this season but those show what his game is all about and to be honest are probably two of the best runs from midfield we have had all season. In a cm2 though he doesn't get to do this enough. I think some of the problems are a lack of experience, such as when he tries to force the play too much with an over-ambitious pass, but he isn't really a playmaker-type who is going to sit and dictate the proceedings. A cm2 stifles what his game is all about and puts the focus on him dictating play and defensive capabilities.

On a more general note, I think its often easy to bash central midfielders and have unrealistic expectations on just what we expect of them... I was reading one page of a thread yesterday and various complaints were that a) we needed them to be defensively better b) better playmakers and c) needed more goals from them. So basically the total package of a goalscoring defensive maestro who conducts play for 90 minutes... It's arguable if one of those exists, and if he does, he won't be playing for Spurs any time soon. It's also incredibly hard for any cm2 when you set up with what effectively is a 4-2-4, the press is lazy, and we seem to be carrying a couple of passengers every match.

 

[eddiebailey]

He may be 23 but he is learning a new position whilst playing at a much higher technical level than ever before. I seem to recall that even last season at Swindon he was still the most attacking of a midfield three with Luongo and Kasim; this is his first season in a CM2. Given his history I am just delighted to see that we have found a way to keep him fit while playing high intensity football. As he grows in confidence I think we will see more of the Ryan who was known in his academy days for his parsimoniousness in possession and deadly finishing.

Also worth noting that he has won admirers in the likes of Roy Hodgson and Paul Scholes, whose eye for a player I trust rather more than I do the blowhards on Spurscommunity.

 

[THOWIG]

He's a great player to have. Reminds me of Steven Davis at Southampton. Just a real solid pro.

 

[Bensonrecon]

Plenty of people were quick to write off Kane too, even as recent as the start of this season. Mason has played virtually every game since Forest without break, kid must be knackered. Add to that that he will know himself that his form has dipped while getting the usual abuse at the ground and on social media and I get the feeling he's now over thinking things and trying to force it rather than allowing things to come naturally.

Another "Pochettino type" central midfielder brought through or bought for next season to give him competition, and more importantly allow him to have a rest, then we'll be able to better judge him in a year's time

 

[Bus-Conductor]

The problem is that he isn't a central midfielder in a two. He's a box to box player who needs license to get forward and arrive late in the thick of the action. In a cm3 you'd be able to give him this license, plus still be able to count on him putting in a shift and helping out defensively/with the pressing effort, without him having to worry about being disciplined positionally.

He's missed a couple of great chances against City this season but those show what his game is all about and to be honest are probably two of the best runs from midfield we have had all season. In a cm2 though he doesn't get to do this enough. I think some of the problems are a lack of experience, such as when he tries to force the play too much with an over-ambitious pass, but he isn't really a playmaker-type who is going to sit and dictate the proceedings. A cm2 stifles what his game is all about and puts the focus on him dictating play and defensive capabilities.

On a more general note, I think its often easy to bash central midfielders and have unrealistic expectations on just what we expect of them... I was reading one page of a thread yesterday and various complaints were that a) we needed them to be defensively better b) better playmakers and c) needed more goals from them. So basically the total package of a goalscoring defensive maestro who conducts play for 90 minutes... It's arguable if one of those exists, and if he does, he won't be playing for Spurs any time soon. It's also incredibly hard for any cm2 when you set up with what effectively is a 4-2-4, the press is lazy, and we seem to be carrying a couple of passengers every match.

In the words of the famous SC/Twitter ITK, one million percent this.

We've also seen what Bentaleb is capable of when he's given a bit of license to get forward too. I know Capoue wasn't everyone's favourite flavour but he would have been perfect sitting in the middle of a CM3 (or even Stambouli or Veljkovic) with Mason right and Bentaleb left. It would also have allowed Lamela to play in the position he scored all those goals for Roma in, with Chadli or Eriksen on the left.

It's so infuriatingly obvious that this system would have got the best from several of our players and almost certainly us collectively and it's been completely ignored for a system that instead often exposes weaknesses individually and collectively.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

Danny Rose may teach us something, but so may Bongani Khumalo, too.

Mason is and will be too weak for Pochettino's system, and we have no choice but to drastically upgrade CM this summer (or change system, as I would prefer, but that's not happening).

 

[mpickard2087]

In the words of the famous SC/Twitter ITK, one million percent this.

We've also seen what Bentaleb is capable of when he's given a bit of license to get forward too. I know Capoue wasn't everyone's favourite flavour but he would have been perfect sitting in the middle of a CM3 (or even Stambouli or Veljkovic) with Mason right and Bentaleb left. It would also have allowed Lamela to play in the position he scored all those goals for Roma in, with Chadli or Eriksen on the left.

It's so infuriatingly obvious that this system would have got the best from several of our players and almost certainly us collectively and it's been completely ignored for a system that instead often exposes weaknesses individually and collectively.

Yeah it applies for Bentaleb too, I've made that point a number of times. It would apply for the likes of Dembele/Paulinho as well. I have just said in another thread, I don't know to whose benefit Poch is thinking of when he goes with 4-2-3-1/4-2-4 every week, given that apart from a very small number of games Eriksen and Lamela have struggled to co-exist.

For me I'd have no qualms playing Veljkovic as an anchor alongside the other two until the end of the season (given that Capoue is persona non grata and I'm not convinced Stambouli is an anchorman, he seems to like to chase the game and get stuck in). As you say, with a bit of freedom I'd be fairly confident we'd see even more from them.

 

[eddiebailey]

Danny Rose may teach us something, but so may Bongani Khumalo, too.

I am not sure Khumalo has taught us anything, at least not of relevance to this discussion.

 

[Kiedis]

Mason is a lovely player, but I reckon some people may be a bit tired of him still keeping his place in the team after a string of mediocre performances whil guys like Fazio, Stambouli, Capoue, Paulinho and Dembele were cast aside very quickly.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

I am not sure Khumalo has taught us anything, at least not of relevance to this discussion.

Kind of my point, in a way. Why is it exactly Rose that is the proof for Mason becoming even better in the future? Is it only that Rose has had a few really good matches? Or is there anything else about Rose that makes him and Mason comparable? If Rose as an example is simply randomly chosen, then it is as relevant as Khumalo.

 

[Blake Griffin]

Kind of my point, in a way. Why is it exactly Rose that is the proof for Mason becoming even better in the future? Is it only that Rose has had a few really good matches? Or is there anything else about Rose that makes him and Mason comparable? If Rose as an example is simply randomly chosen, then it is as relevant as Khumalo.

rose isn't proof that mason or any other player will get better. rose is proof that you write off a young player you risk being made to look a mug in the future. what that has to do with bongani khumalo who has never played a single meaningful game for spurs i don't know.

 

[eddiebailey]

Kind of my point, in a way. Why is it exactly Rose that is the proof for Mason becoming even better in the future? Is it only that Rose has had a few really good matches? Or is there anything else about Rose that makes him and Mason comparable? If Rose as an example is simply randomly chosen, then it is as relevant as Khumalo.

Er Rose was a player who was given a chance, became a scapegoat for poor performances but then came good; Mason is a player who was given a chance and is in the process of becoming a scapegoat for poor performances; Khumalo is a player who was never given a chance.

Rose seems the more relevant precedent.