Do we draw a transfer line on the sand now ?

[Bus-Conductor]

I've pondered this long and hard for a very long time and I really can't come up with a difinative answer.

We had never really had players that the top teams coveted, certainly not to the tune of £18-30 million before Carrick came along.

The only notable exceptions in recent years were United taking Sheringham off us to polish their bench with his arse and Barca taking Popescu. Before that you rally have to go back to Gaza for a major sale to a big european club (unless I'm forgetting someone).

But now, credit to Levy, Comolli, Arnesen we have started buying real quality players that often increase in value.

People often bleat about us being a selling club but it is nowhere near that simple. To survive and flourish a club - be they privately owned or not - must turn a buck. Must make some profit to invest in all areas, especially the playing staff. You sell a Carrick you buy a Lennon, Huddlestone, Ekotto & a Berbatov. You sell a Berbatov you buy a Palcios, Pavlyuchenko and a Bale.

Just as we are only really vulnerable to a United, Arsenal have proved to be vulnerable to Real Madrid or Barca. It's the evoloutionary food chain.

And as we have seen with people like Arsharvin, Hleb, Viera, Henry, Figo etc etc. when aplayer wants a move it is fucking hard to actually prevent it. All you can do is dig your heals in and make it hurt the the club that buys him as much as possible.

But.....and there is a but. We are a rich club, one of the richest and best run clubs in world football. Could we, and should we try to make a stand the next time this happens. Say Man U come in for Modric. Should we do say fuck it, you can rot in the reserves, we'll write off your - not incosiderable - wages and the 25 million quid we could wisely invest elsewhere and say bollocks to you and ManU. Obviously we would try to say it nicer to Modric. But you get the drift.

It's a fucking toughie isn't it. Ok so if told he can't go he'll still play because you could dock his wages if he refused to play but you've then got a player whose hear is very much not in it effecting the dressing room etc.

I would favour a quiet word, ie to the effect. Listen Luka, we love you here and we will offer you an uber contract but under no circumstances will we sell you as we intend to reach the top4 and if we sell you we never will etc etc. A bit of tough love. But if that doesn't work and he and his ambitious (for his 10%) agent keep stirring it, a la Berbatov then....

What should we do ?

 

[There's always next year]

Unless we regularly achieve champions league qualification, win a few cups and challenge for the premier league, we will always run the risk of or the inevitability of losing our best players to teams who can offer the aforementioned factors.

We need stability more than anything at present. This is in the form of a settled squad and a manager who is given time.

 

[danielneeds]

Thing is if we let a Modric or Palacios rot in the reserves after a United came in, then agents would tell future potential transfer targets not to join us as their career movement may be hindered.

 

[Hoowl]

I think the first key point is whether there is a chance that the player will play for Tottenham again?

Looking at the Berbatov situation and taking a dispasionate approach, I'd much rather have £30m to spend on players than an unhappy player who's not going to contribute anything to the club bar a gloomy atmosphere. That £30m is a huge amount of money to be re-invested. Obviously the club have to re-invest this money wisely but that's a debate for another thread. I hardly think docking wages would have helped his demeanour and had we frozen him out or put him in the reserves it would have rumbled on in the media casting a cloud over the club. I don't see how it would have benefitted the club, in the short term, by keeping the player. However, I'm speculating here and making assumptions from his pervieved sullenness and snippets of ITK. Who knows what would have happened if we'd kept Berbatov. Maybe he would have realised that not playing would be negative for his career, but then if he suddenly wanted to play again how would his hard-working team-mates react? There are so many ifs and buts.

The reaction of any individual to a refusal to move depends on the disposition of the player, and the advice he gets from his agent. The transfer of Berbatov left us with a bitter taste in our mouths, mainly because it dragged on into the season and he wasn't in a fit state to play for us. What about the Carrick or Keane situations? The players both left before a ball was kicked so we don't really know too much about their attitudes and how much they fought for the transfers. Furthermore, both Carrick and Keane seem to be less temperamental than Berbatov so it's easy to specualte that they might have just got on with it if we have rejected their move, almost like Gareth Barry (like Gareth Barry in attitude but it should be noted that Villa didn't refuse to sell, they just named a price which Liverpool refused to meet.). However, we just don't know the players well enough to predict what would have happened.

The second key point is that if we do say no to a player and stop him leaving will it actually discourage players to do it in the future?

What's the point in making a stand if it's going to have no effect on whether it happens again in the future? If these kind of transfer sagas are largely based on the attitiudes on the players themselves then sooner or later you're going to get another good player who's determined to leave and you might freeze out another £30m asset. Can even a rich club afford to take those kind of business decisions (and yes i do think it goes beyond football to become a business decision). The club could also find that they are less likely to sign players who view them as a stepping stone (Carrick and Berbatov arguable fit into this category) and I for one would rather have loved and lost than never loved at all.

 

[mil1lion]

It shouldn't matter if a player wants to leave. The most important thing is to have a settled team under 1 manager. And to have good quality young talent coming through. That way, if a player does leave then someone else comes in, be it a young talent given his chance, or a new signing. It should be a case of having a team put together so that any player sales are replaced like for like. Arsenal are a great example. They sell top players all the time, but they continue to feed through young talent, and sign like for like replacements when needed.

We now have the foundation in place. We have some promising young players coming through. And we have plenty of young players in the first team too. But we also have quiete a bit of experience aswell. We need to stick with the same manager, let him build and settle as a team. Stop chasing managers everytime we fail to make the top 4. We've never finished in the top 4 of the Premier League. So we should settle with a top 6 finish which is a lot more realistic. I'd love Harry to stay for a couple of years, and then see Clive Allen take over for the long run. Keep the same people at the club. Then we can afford to lose a great player or two but not be too badly affected by it. Its not the individual sales that are the biggest problem. Its the mass changes throughout the squad every year that unsettles us.

 

[Mr Gamgee]

its a good point. It does annoy me, knowing that as soon as we start getting good the top four teams pick off our best players.

At some point if we really have Champions league aspirations we have to say NOT FOR SALE, otherwise we will continue on the same merry go round for as long as we are in existance.

It does make me wonder sometimes how Villa and Everton manage to keep there top players, Arteta, Cahill, Lescott Young, Barry (ok so he could have gone to liverpool). Yet we have sold our three best players in the last four years. Look where they are now and where we are.

 

[Hoowl]

It does make me wonder sometimes how Villa and Everton manage to keep there top players, Arteta, Cahill, Lescott Young, Barry (ok so he could have gone to liverpool). Yet we have sold our three best players in the last four years. Look where they are now and where we are.

Did any of those players want out? Were any big clubs in for them?

Barry would certainly have gone to Liverpool if they had stumped up the £18m asking price, which is Basically what happened with Berbatov and united except we didn't make the price public.

 

[$hoguN]

tbh i think Levy will be drawing a line in the sand now (especially with accordance to Utd as Fergie has really been burning bridges with everyone recently) with big players leaving we are damaging our progression and I think Redknapp would walk if we sold them, so I cant see any of our big players leaving for 2-3 seasons...

So if the situation arises where bigger fish come calling for Palacios and Modric, I can see Levy and Redknapp telling Utd they can fuck themselves flat out, however if there is really big money being offered I do see us eventually selling them to a different big club after a few more seasons...

 

[Bus-Conductor]

It shouldn't matter if a player wants to leave. The most important thing is to have a settled team under 1 manager. And to have good quality young talent coming through. That way, if a player does leave then someone else comes in, be it a young talent given his chance, or a new signing. It should be a case of having a team put together so that any player sales are replaced like for like. Arsenal are a great example. They sell top players all the time, but they continue to feed through young talent, and sign like for like replacements when needed.

We now have the foundation in place. We have some promising young players coming through. And we have plenty of young players in the first team too. But we also have quiete a bit of experience aswell. We need to stick with the same manager, let him build and settle as a team. Stop chasing managers everytime we fail to make the top 4. We've never finished in the top 4 of the Premier League. So we should settle with a top 6 finish which is a lot more realistic. I'd love Harry to stay for a couple of years, and then see Clive Allen take over for the long run. Keep the same people at the club. Then we can afford to lose a great player or two but not be too badly affected by it. Its not the individual sales that are the biggest problem. Its the mass changes throughout the squad every year that unsettles us.

But Arsenal haven't managed to replace Viera, Henry, Bergkamp, Adams, Keown, Pires, Overmars, etc etc. They are going backwards because of this.

its a good point. It does annoy me, knowing that as soon as we start getting good the top four teams pick off our best players.

At some point if we really have Champions league aspirations we have to say NOT FOR SALE, otherwise we will continue on the same merry go round for as long as we are in existance.

It does make me wonder sometimes how Villa and Everton manage to keep there top players, Arteta, Cahill, Lescott Young, Barry (ok so he could have gone to liverpool). Yet we have sold our three best players in the last four years. Look where they are now and where we are.

Barry would be gone now if Liverpool hadn't have wasted 20m on Keane. The others are good players within a well organised team but not individually top4 material. Arteta is borderline.

 

[gibbs131]

I would favour a quiet word, ie to the effect. Listen Luka, we love you here and we will offer you an uber contract but under no circumstances will we sell you as we intend to reach the top4 and if we sell you we never will etc etc. A bit of tough love. But if that doesn't work and he and his ambitious (for his 10%) agent keep stirring it, a la Berbatov then....

What should we do ?

hahahah!Hhahhaahahahahahahhaha!!!!!

oh god...stop...hahahahahhahahahahahahaahaha

Levy???? hahahahahahaaahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[danielneeds]

But Arsenal haven't managed to replace Viera, Henry, Bergkamp, Adams, Keown, Pires, Overmars, etc etc. They are going backwards because of this.

Wenger did it once when he sold Overmars, Petit, and Anelka for £50m plus and bought Henry, Pires and Gilberto for less than £20m.

He thinks he has replaced Henry and Bergkamp with Adebayor and Van P, although there is no shame in not quite the latter two not being quite up to the level of the former. They are two of the finest players I have ever seen in my lifetime.

 

[Coyboy]

It's what I worry about in the summer, not whom we will sign but whom we will lose. I would say that Modric, Woodgate and Palacios could be coveted. The advantage though of having such a fucked up season is that the unimaginative strands of Ferguson and Benitez' brains will not have noticed too much the form of these three. Carrick was bought because it was seen that he pivoted Spurs wheras Keane and Berba were bought because, well, they are class but I think if we can just tread quietly through the summer (a likely story) we will not lose any key players.

Hopefully Ferguson shares some of the fools' views in redcafe of Modric (would there be a better replacement for Scholes) and that Benitez doesn't look to Woodgate when he realises Skrtl is their only top class centre back. I don't think we can categorically say 'sell him if he wants out' or 'keep him at all costs' because we won't know what goes on behind closed doors. I am confident we can keep our players and go ahead next year with a more balanced squad than before-no Berbatov or Carrick- but strikers that can score goals and a midfield with the collective attributes of Carrick.

Assuming we stay up of course, if not it's adios to most players minus O'Hara and King.

 

[Coyboy]

hahahah!Hhahhaahahahahahahhaha!!!!!

oh god...stop...hahahahahhahahahahahahaahaha

Levy???? hahahahahahaaahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Good post. Added so much to the debate.

 

[DC_Boy]

I don't think there's much you can do to stop players going if they want out - and AFAIK that's Harry's position too (inded it is Levy's as well AFAIK

you do, and again I think HR & DL think the same, what we continue to do

slap a massive price on them and if someone meets it - ok x you have your wish

so if LM wants out and if (for argument's sake Utd want to pay £35m for him, then it's goodbye Luka)

What you don't do is where we went wrong last time round is sell one of our top strikers (Keane) and then don't replace him, tiill far too late in the day when you buy another one to only partly cover the fact you're about to lose a second star striker

that was poor decision making

had we replaced Keane with another striker - my suggestion was milito - but others would have done - (THFC have a scouting network- I don't) then gettting Pav in would have left us ok for losing Berbs

now I'm nowhere near as good a negotiator as Levy - but it's pretty clear that before you sell a star player, you decide if he needs replacing, and if so we replace before we sell or we replace in a timely fashion afterwards

easier said than done - but that's what has to be done

 

[JonnySpurs]

I don't believe there is any good to come from attempting to keep a player who either doesn't want to play for the club anymore or worse than that, thinks he's bigger and better (Berbatov).

This is a story that has been told many times in football and is not going to change, as you have said yourself, it's the footy food chain and as much as Man U and Arsenal are prone to losing players to Madrid and Barca, that is also a vice versa....there is no club in football that can say they would never lose a player to another club somewhere else in the world.

I think the bigger thing nowadays, especially in light of what has happened at Spurs with the return of Keane, Chimbo and Defoe and also what Ricardo Oliveira has done with Betis is that sometimes players need to realise that the grass isn't always greener and if you have a REALLY good thing going then why change that.

I'm glad that Keane is back and I understand why he left, in the same way I did with Carrick but at the time when he left, had Carrick given us ONE more season to see what would happen, I genuinely believe we'd have broken the top 4 and only gone from strength to strength. After he left, and despite a consecutive 5th place finish, we were always swimming against the current and I honestly feel that it's led us to where we are today, along with a number of other factors of course.

The trick now is to stabilise this team, it's full of talent, good manager, good coaching staff. Stay up this season, which is far from certain, then we have the foundation to really build something special for next year.

 

[elvis7754]

I think JonnySpurs' "one more season" model is a very practical and realistic approach to take. I believe O'Neill took this approach with Barry, probably encouraging him to stay on one more season to see if they could break into the Top4. As it happens, Villa look likely to do so; who knows, possibly even at the expense of Liverpool, Barry's CL suitors. If Villa can make CL footy, Barry looks set to stay. If they fall away, I think O'Neill will probably allow to him leave for Liverpool.

Unless the player is tempramental (Berba) or ageing, this approach finds some middle-ground and I believe would be successful if Utd came in for LM, WP or Bale in the next couple of years.

I accept this is a very simplistic way of looking at things but there will always be a load of complicating factors.

x

 

[idlepete]

A minimum fee release clause that only gets activated if we don't achieve CL football within a given period would be acceptable IMO. Puts more pressure on everyone to pull in the same direction.

 

[EZSpur]

I've pondered this long and hard for a very long time and I really can't come up with a difinative answer.

We had never really had players that the top teams coveted, certainly not to the tune of £18-30 million before Carrick came along.

The only notable exceptions in recent years were United taking Sheringham off us to polish their bench with his arse and Barca taking Popescu. Before that you rally have to go back to Gaza for a major sale to a big european club (unless I'm forgetting someone).

But now, credit to Levy, Comolli, Arnesen we have started buying real quality players that often increase in value.

People often bleat about us being a selling club but it is nowhere near that simple. To survive and flourish a club - be they privately owned or not - must turn a buck. Must make some profit to invest in all areas, especially the playing staff. You sell a Carrick you buy a Lennon, Huddlestone, Ekotto & a Berbatov. You sell a Berbatov you buy a Palcios, Pavlyuchenko and a Bale.

Just as we are only really vulnerable to a United, Arsenal have proved to be vulnerable to Real Madrid or Barca. It's the evoloutionary food chain.

And as we have seen with people like Arsharvin, Hleb, Viera, Henry, Figo etc etc. when aplayer wants a move it is fucking hard to actually prevent it. All you can do is dig your heals in and make it hurt the the club that buys him as much as possible.

But.....and there is a but. We are a rich club, one of the richest and best run clubs in world football. Could we, and should we try to make a stand the next time this happens. Say Man U come in for Modric. Should we do say fuck it, you can rot in the reserves, we'll write off your - not incosiderable - wages and the 25 million quid we could wisely invest elsewhere and say bollocks to you and ManU. Obviously we would try to say it nicer to Modric. But you get the drift.

It's a fucking toughie isn't it. Ok so if told he can't go he'll still play because you could dock his wages if he refused to play but you've then got a player whose hear is very much not in it effecting the dressing room etc.

I would favour a quiet word, ie to the effect. Listen Luka, we love you here and we will offer you an uber contract but under no circumstances will we sell you as we intend to reach the top4 and if we sell you we never will etc etc. A bit of tough love. But if that doesn't work and he and his ambitious (for his 10%) agent keep stirring it, a la Berbatov then....

What should we do ?

BC - a really good post, and somewhat of a head-scratcher because you're right, it really is a toughie!

Just to add my 2-pennies, lets look at this from a different point of view.

We are ALL Spurs supporters and therefore have fondness and ultimately loyalty for the club and its players (in fact EVERYTHING about it!!).

However, imagine if you were PAID to be a fan!! If Man U or the Arse came calling with offers of more money, european tickets, better seats etc - would you turn!!?
My feeling is that 99% of us wouldn't - WHY?? Because we LOVE Spurs, we're LOYAL and ultimately we ARE Spurs!!!

Now lets look at it from the players point of view!
Unfortunately, football is much more an industry now - and a very profitable one at that, especially the premiership.
Players therefore are 'just doing a job' and have no alleigence or loyalty to a club, hence IMO if the pay-day is right, players will always seek to move on! Regardless of their 'feelings' for the club they are with.

I also think that the excuse of chasing regular CL football, or regular trophies is a load of bull.
I mean look at Wayne Bridge - did he move to Man Citeh to chase CL, or was it the fact that he's now getting paid 80k a week??
Did Cashley move to Chelski to expand his career or expand his wallet!?

I guess the point i'm trying to make is this (and i'm not trying to be negative): but in this day and age, it will ALWAYS be difficult to keep players once their heads have been turned, its unfortunate, but its also the truth! No matter how much sweet talking we do - remember that Sol Campbell fellow!?

 

[DC_Boy]

well AFAIK if Pool had paid the price Villa wanted, then Barry would have gone

would Berba have come round to Levy's way of thinking if he'd have said 'just give us one more season Dimitar'?

and what sort of a season would we have got anyway?

obviously different players have different temperaments - some can be talked around - some and I think Berbs was in that category can't be

of course if Utd hadn't met our price then we'd have presumably kept Berbs - to what end?

incidentally I think CFC must now regret not letting Drogba go, when I believe he wanted out, what a farce keeping him has turned out to be

 

[Hoowl]

I think JonnySpurs' "one more season" model is a very practical and realistic approach to take. I believe O'Neill took this approach with Barry, probably encouraging him to stay on one more season to see if they could break into the Top4. As it happens, Villa look likely to do so; who knows, possibly even at the expense of Liverpool, Barry's CL suitors. If Villa can make CL footy, Barry looks set to stay. If they fall away, I think O'Neill will probably allow to him leave for Liverpool.

Unless the player is tempramental (Berba) or ageing, this approach finds some middle-ground and I believe would be successful if Utd came in for LM, WP or Bale in the next couple of years.

I accept this is a very simplistic way of looking at things but there will always be a load of complicating factors.

x

The closest Spurs comparison is with Carrick. If he had the right attitude, we could have kept him for another season and tried to convince him to sign a new contract with the risk of letting him leave on a free. However, I think it would have been very hard to get him to sign a new deal. One swallow doesn't make a summer and even if we had qualified for the Champions League that once, it would have been a far cry from being at United and having a good chance of winning it every year (let alone winning the league, FA Cup...). I think Carrick would have still definately left at the end of his deal and we would have effectively spent a guarenteed £18m on a better chance to get into the Champions League (just that once, which is merely a stepping stone and no way would assure us a continued top 4 finish).