can ramos motivate ?

[There's always next year]

Ramos may appear distant, but this is down to his limited English and a requirement to take a set back and assess his squad. He seems to be methodical and thorough with his approach and this may appear a little aloof to some, especially those who need a arm around thier shoulders at times.

Next season Ramos will realise that he does not have the luxury of under achieving in the same manner as this year and will be looking for a good start and maintain this level. I believe he will suceed in doing this. If he does not then we will see a ruthless streak and place pressur on the under achieves and ultimatley drop nan replace with hungrier players

 

[Marty]

Ramos is a fine manager who came in and rescued our season. From a backward moving start with a team in absolute crisis full of bewildered players whose confidence was so shot that an opposing team merely had to hint at crossing the ball for them all to cower away, Ramos got us believing. We went from strength to strength, beat Arsenal 5-1 and won the Carling Cup coming from a goal down against Chelsea in the final. Our season only ended when Jenas had his penalty saved in the shoot-out against PSV.

Good post, but Jenas wasn't the only one to miss in the shoot-out, Chimbonda is equally to blame for missing the last one (even though I know we would've won if JJ's had gon in)

 

[AngerManagement]

agree with that jfk - to me the man city away game would have been where we stopped had Jol stayed

that game was truly heroic and we didn't have it in our locker this season till JR arrived

IF any game answers this threads question it is this one.

Of course Ramos can motivate players, I highley doubt he would have had the success he has had at Sevilla if he could not and we certainly would not have come through tough games like Man CIty away an the 2 legs against Arsenal let alone come from behind in the cup final if he could not do these things.

I think currently he and Gus have took the foot off the gas themselves, probably to see what the players are made of, who has the self motivation to give all the go when little is at stake.

Why should he work his magic with players who dont really want to be with us and thus dont deserve to be with us.

Once Ramos has removed the deadwood, brought in the new players he wants, had time to work with the squad and the games are competitive again I have zero doubt everyone will be singing Ramos' praises again.

I like Jol as much as the next guy, he is a good manager and a great personality to have as your manager. Ramos however is a winner, Ramos is clearly a better manager in my opinion easily the best we have ever had since I have been watching SPurs (dating back to Venables).

Im shocked that anyone would questioning Ramos, he has won a throphey at the first time of asking.... let us all reserve negative judgement until next season.

If you still feel he is not so special halfway through his first full season (in terms of league postion) then by all means question him if you have doubts, but right now it is pointless.

If the motivation for doing so if bitterness over Jol's exit, let it go, Jol is gone. The way he was treated was regretable, but we are Tottenham supporters not the Martin Jol fan club (surely there is a website for that) good luck to him in his next job but from a SPurs point of view he is now irrelevant and the likes of Kaboul would be best served not mentioning him.

 

[SpurSince57]

I cannot believe the snide comments from some on here. Some of you are just young with goldfish style perspective, others (SS) should simply know better.

Ramos is a fine manager who came in and rescued our season. From a backward moving start with a team in absolute crisis full of bewildered players whose confidence was so shot that an opposing team merely had to hint at crossing the ball for them all to cower away, Ramos got us believing. We went from strength to strength, beat Arsenal 5-1 and won the Carling Cup coming from a goal down against Chelsea in the final. Our season only ended when Jenas had his penalty saved in the shoot-out against PSV.

That's the reality.

If since then the team's lacked motivation then that reflects badly on the players and on specific players. As head coach Ramos will have learnt as much from that reaction as in the Carling Cup run and no doubt will take action accordingly.

But really, it's too much, to try and compare Ramos' apples with Jol's pears. Let it go why don't you. Jol was sacked (and rightly so imo) for the ineptitude of his team this year, his poor decision making under pressure and his public lack of ambition and unwillingness to work within the club's structure. You can disagree with the decision, but these are the reasons. Jol had consecutive pre-season's which led to lack-lustre starts, the second of which left clear psychological scarring on what previously had been top four players. "Top four players!" you laugh, but until this season and other than our poor start last, we were in the top four, ppg, for virtually a year and a half.

Now Ramos has a chance at doing pre-season his way, he'll discard the players he feels aren't up to it, which will mean curtains for Jol favourites (ruined by the dutch man btw) such as Dawson and Robbo, he'll benefit from what the board has learned from the mistakes they made which contributed to this season's debacle, but most of all he'll be able to prepare the team in the fashion he wants and he believes is best to hit the ground running and keep running till the end of the season. By which time, we hope, we'll be in the top three or four and pushing for a place in the CL and, who knows, maybe even have put up a challenge for the Championship. If you want to judge then, go ahead, but in the meantime how about a bit of perspective eh? A bit of pride in yourselves. Instead of this, frankly, slightly embarrassing, carping at the edges. Jol's gone. Ramos is here. And he's actually pretty damn good :up:

The reality is that we've taken 19 points from a possibly 48 since the turn of the year, and 11 from the last 30; that isn't hugely better than 7 from 30 at the start of the season, is it? And we've spent the thick end of £25m in the meantime (and it could easily have been closer to £40m). It's not just been since the UEFA exit that we've been turning in lacklustre (to put it kindly) performances. We've seemed to be able to raise ourselves for the big games, which is great, but not against the league's lesser lights. Even in some of the games we've won we've hardly been convincing—it's been largely pretty dismal fare for the poor sods who part with their hard-earned every week. It's bad enough having to listen to it on the radio. Call me old-fashioned, but this, 'Oh, there wasn't anything to play for after we went out of the UEFA Cup' line cuts no ice at all.

Funnily, when some of us questioned the players' mentality at the start of the season we were told it was all Jol's fault (and a pre-season that seemed more geared to raising the global brand profile than getting the squad in shape). Now it does appear to be a problem with the players.

Well, here it is from the horse's mouth:

"All the players have had their opportunities, they have all been used at some point when I've made substitutions and they've all had their chances," he said. "We always want to produce the best performance possible but you have to understand the situation the team is in.

"We are in the middle of the table, the points aren't excessively important—we can't reach the top part of the table and we don't seem to be in danger. It is not easy to get the maximum motivation when the team is in this situation."

I can just imagine the reaction on here if Jol had come out with that line.

 

[AngerManagement]

If that interpretation of events is correct, Levy is guilty of effectively writing off our season.

Maybe not writing off the season per say, but writing off any chances of catching the top four this season for sure.

Im assume he realised that to break into the top four was going to require investement in 3/4 top quality players, he wanted his new man to over see these signings as the project is a long term one in reality.

Now while the whole Jol affair has no doubt cost us having an effective league campaign as we got off to a bad start and really had no chance of even equalling the achievements of the last two years nevermind surpassing them..... he did get his man and bring a proven winner in to man the ship. (its no coincidence we went on to win our first silverwear of the decade.)

So bearing in mind in all reasonable assement the best we could have hoped for without spending major money on proven quality last term would have been 5th and the best of the rest and most likely been thropheyless.

So the end result is the same, we achieve UEFA cup qualification again although not via the league.

I dont think the season has been a write off at all, the league was poor but we went to wembley and won and I think we are moving in the right direction.

So you could argue that he wrote it off by not making the investments required with Jol in charge and letting Jol have a crack at breaking the top four. Well he had already decided Jol was not the man to take us forward long term so it would have been wasted money to spend on players without the new mans input (even with DC in place).

I think its true, much as I like Jol, we would not have won the CC under him (my own opinion).

I think Ramos is better and we will be better off long term for having changed manager.

So I dont mind writing off the season in that way, seeing as we reached the same end result (Uefa cup qualification) and the only reason we had been so close to Arsenal in previous years was their underachievement rarther then us being on their level.

We are still looking up but hopefully now with Ramos at the helm and the big players (Modric...) starting to be targeted I have more optimism that I will not have this neck ache for too much longer and finally be able to see us up there with the big boys some time soon.
(something I like mr Levy couldn't see happening under Jol)

My only real concern is that had the Ramos Jol switch been made before the season started we may have made the signings we need sooner, performed better and had a stronger chance of keeping Berbatov (yet that is not concluded, so we will see)

 

[sloth]

The reality is that we've taken 19 points from a possibly 48 since the turn of the year, and 11 from the last 30; that isn't hugely better than 7 from 30 at the start of the season, is it? And we've spent the thick end of £25m in the meantime (and it could easily have been closer to £40m). It's not just been since the UEFA exit that we've been turning in lacklustre (to put it kindly) performances. We've seemed to be able to raise ourselves for the big games, which is great, but not against the league's lesser lights. Even in some of the games we've won we've hardly been convincing—it's been largely pretty dismal fare for the poor sods who part with their hard-earned every week. It's bad enough having to listen to it on the radio. Call me old-fashioned, but this, 'Oh, there wasn't anything to play for after we went out of the UEFA Cup' line cuts no ice at all.

Funnily, when some of us questioned the players' mentality at the start of the season we were told it was all Jol's fault (and a pre-season that seemed more geared to raising the global brand profile than getting the squad in shape). Now it does appear to be a problem with the players.

Well, here it is from the horse's mouth:

"All the players have had their opportunities, they have all been used at some point when I've made substitutions and they've all had their chances," he said. "We always want to produce the best performance possible but you have to understand the situation the team is in.

"We are in the middle of the table, the points aren't excessively important—we can't reach the top part of the table and we don't seem to be in danger. It is not easy to get the maximum motivation when the team is in this situation."

I can just imagine the reaction on here if Jol had come out with that line.

Well at least you've made your bed, I suppose. I hope it's comfortable for you for the remaining games this season.

Although it's a shame you'll be wriggling next, I dare say it will take some of the gloss of it as you try and claim you supported Ramos all along, and anyway Jol never had the support and it's all due to the players and if we squint really hard and stand on our heads whilst looking through the crook of our elbows we'll see the inherent logic and cohesion of your argument from the beginning, lol.

Really SS, a man of your year's and intelligence should know better. But just goes to show eh...

 

[hatch]

t
Well, here it is from the horse's mouth:

"All the players have had their opportunities, they have all been used at some point when I've made substitutions and they've all had their chances," he said. "We always want to produce the best performance possible but you have to understand the situation the team is in.

"We are in the middle of the table, the points aren't excessively important—we can't reach the top part of the table and we don't seem to be in danger. It is not easy to get the maximum motivation when the team is in this situation."

.

to me this reads that his had a look at all the players some dont seem up to the job we wont go down its not easy with the players we have you cant polish a turd..

 

[idlepete]

you cant polish a turd..

...but you can get fired for not being able to.

 

[SpurSince57]

I shall, of course, be glued to 949 as usual. Given current form I predict another 1-1 against Reading and a win over Liverpool, which will at least end the season on something of a high.

You seem to be suggesting that Ramos be totally exempt from criticism of any kind. Well, sorry, and all that, but whilst it was obviously going to take a few games to get the team firing again after our disastrous start, we took a very creditable 17 points from our first 9 games under Ramos—if we'd maintained that kind of form we'd be in with a realistic shout of a top six spot by now. Since then, however, we've taken just two points more from the next 16—1.88 PPG down to 1.18. The league malaise set in before the CC Final.

Not so long ago you were waxing lyrical and at some length, comparing Ramos' tactics to Hannibal's. Well, meeting his Scipio Africanus in the shape of Keegan and Borat is a bit of a come-down. We've had some eccentric selections and frankly perverse substitutions. Clearly something isn't quite right, yet you appear to be ignoring the obvious. If the players' heads weren't right under Jol at the start of the season, they don't seem much righter now. Zokora suggested that they may be 'a bit tired'. Sorry? WTF?

 

[hatch]

ss57 do you not like ramos or rate him as a coach or do you feel aggrieved at the way the board got rid of jol?

 

[sloth]

I shall, of course, be glued to 949 as usual. Given current form I predict another 1-1 against Reading and a win over Liverpool, which will at least end the season on something of a high.

You seem to be suggesting that Ramos be totally exempt from criticism of any kind. Well, sorry, and all that, but whilst it was obviously going to take a few games to get the team firing again after our disastrous start, we took a very creditable 17 points from our first 9 games under Ramos—if we'd maintained that kind of form we'd be in with a realistic shout of a top six spot by now. Since then, however, we've taken just two points more from the next 16—1.88 PPG down to 1.18. The league malaise set in before the CC Final.

Not so long ago you were waxing lyrical and at some length, comparing Ramos' tactics to Hannibal's. Well, meeting his Scipio Africanus in the shape of Keegan and Borat is a bit of a come-down. We've had some eccentric selections and frankly perverse substitutions. Clearly something isn't quite right, yet you appear to be ignoring the obvious. If the players' heads weren't right under Jol at the start of the season, they don't seem much righter now. Zokora suggested that they may be 'a bit tired'. Sorry? WTF?

You're right I think the premise of this thread and some of the comments posted in it are absurd.

Ramos is a very good coach. A cut above. I think our current travails (if travails they are) are easily explicable and reflect nothing on Ramos whatsoever. Is he human? Yes. Has he faults? Of course he has. Is he a perfect coach? Of course he isn't. But we aren't comparing him against some sort of Aristotlian idea of manager. We're measuring him against the norm. And when you do, I think you'll find he's pretty fucking good.

 

[Kendall]

I still think he should've done better with the squad we have. The jury is most definitely out on Ramos from where I'm sitting.

 

[SpurSince57]

ss57 do you not like ramos or rate him as a coach or do you feel aggrieved at the way the board got rid of jol?

At the moment, I'm really not sure what I think of Ramos. He was certainly the only one of those whose name was being bandied around that I'd have taken in preference to Jol. I still shudder at the thought that if Ramos had turned us down we might have been landed with that ridiculously overrated clown Koeman.

That said, and setting aside the CC win, I don't see why questioning our league form this year should be taboo, or the mark of a fanatical Jolista. The team has shown it can compete with and beat the best, yet we've had some truly godawful performances against sides we really should be beating. The defeat at St James's was the pits, I thought at the time; we were even worse against the Barcodes at the Lane. We've managed to lose twice against the Brummies. We've won just four league games since 1 January, and two of those were against Derby and Sunderland—and we made a real meal of both of those. We won five of Ramos' first nine. So, I'd say it's not at all unreasonable to ask what's going on. Wouldn't you?

How is it that a team that can fight back from a seemingly impossible position against Chelsea, and come within a whisker of beating them, then beat Pompey, capitulate to Newcastle? You tell me. That team should be good enough to mount a serious challenge—what we've lacked is strength in depth—and yet it looks as if it will be completely altered next season. So, I'm a little perplexed. I really don't know if Ramos is the tactical genius some claim, or a gambler who made some wacky substitutions which initially paid off, but have become less and less successful. Luck, or judgement? :shrug: People rabbit on about the 'Ramos Revolution', but wouldn't evolution be preferable?

It wouldn't wholly surprise me if all of last summer's signings, with the exception of Bale, go out of the door this summer (Kaboul may have cooked his goose already). Robbo is likely to go, possibly Dawson and Chimbonda too. Berbatov—who knows? I don't know that Jenas, Zokora and Malbranque will be first picks any more. Lennon? Keane, even?

I'm confident that we'll see a big upturn next season, but if Ramos' brief was to get the squad he inherited performing to its capabilities rather than embark on a massive rebuild, you can hardly say he's been a success.

And yes, I was, and still am, aggrieved at the way Jol was treated. That, however, is irrelevant, as is comparing their performance—since the goalposts have been changed with January's spending spree, it's altogether pointless.

 

[dannythomas]

At the moment, I'm really not sure what I think of Ramos. He was certainly the only one of those whose name was being bandied around that I'd have taken in preference to Jol. I still shudder at the thought that if Ramos had turned us down we might have been landed with that ridiculously overrated clown Koeman.

That said, and setting aside the CC win, I don't see why questioning our league form this year should be taboo, or the mark of a fanatical Jolista. The team has shown it can compete with and beat the best, yet we've had some truly godawful performances against sides we really should be beating. The defeat at St James's was the pits, I thought at the time; we were even worse against the Barcodes at the Lane. We've managed to lose twice against the Brummies. We've won just four league games since 1 January, and two of those were against Derby and Sunderland—and we made a real meal of both of those. We won five of Ramos' first nine. So, I'd say it's not at all unreasonable to ask what's going on. Wouldn't you?

How is it that a team that can fight back from a seemingly impossible position against Chelsea, and come within a whisker of beating them, then beat Pompey, capitulate to Newcastle? You tell me. That team should be good enough to mount a serious challenge—what we've lacked is strength in depth—and yet it looks as if it will be completely altered next season. So, I'm a little perplexed. I really don't know if Ramos is the tactical genius some claim, or a gambler who made some wacky substitutions which initially paid off, but have become less and less successful. Luck, or judgement? :shrug: People rabbit on about the 'Ramos Revolution', but wouldn't evolution be preferable?

It wouldn't wholly surprise me if all of last summer's signings, with the exception of Bale, go out of the door this summer (Kaboul may have cooked his goose already). Robbo is likely to go, possibly Dawson and Chimbonda too. Berbatov—who knows? I don't know that Jenas, Zokora and Malbranque will be first picks any more. Lennon? Keane, even?

Yes you can be confident about Hutton, Bale ( if fit ) and Woodgate. Beyond that who knows ? And this, surely, is the main point. Under our DOF system we are supposed to have continuity. If we have a mass clear out then we should include DC in those shown the door. We might as well let Ramos and Poyet report directly to Levy in the traditional British way - Managers not Coaches.

 

[lifeof...]

I think "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink it" applies to the motivation question