AVB's System

[ItsBoris]

I've been thinking about this a bit, especially re-watching the Everton game, but I think I'm beginning to understand why AVB didn't want a lot of the players we bought in summer. It also came about from watching Dortmund today and thinking about how they play.

Dortmund's style of play seems to be very direct, they get the ball and they immediately attack. Almost every pass they play is forward. I think they are probably the best team in the world at doing that. So I thought that may be why Kagawa and Sahin never looked as good at United/Madrid/Liverpool as they did in the Dortmund team. Perhaps players find it easier to express their ability in that sort of system. That doesn't necessarily make a direct, counter-attacking style better, but perhaps it is an easier system for players to slot into.

I'd say our style of play under AVB is quite the opposite. For the most part, we are more slow in the build up, we play a high line and we press up the pitch. Not always, but this is usually how we play. We try to control the game in the other team's half. And I've noticed that under AVB that one of the areas that we look significantly better in is pressing. But playing this way means that our players have less space to play in, and so in order to be successful the play has to be more intricate, intelligent and skillful. Imo you need players who are tricky and creative in attack, sort of like David Silva. None of our players really have both of those qualities, and I think to play the possession game you need at least one of those players to unlock defenses. I think some of the players we've signed recently (Holtby, Siggy, Dembele, Walker etc) can be successful in this system and probably just need time to adjust. Others like Dempsey I think just can't succeed with limited time and space. I think that's the only way to explain how he scored 17 goals for Fulham but barely looks like a footballer here. He just doesn't have the skills to thrive in the style that AVB wants to play.

Another observation is I would say that we kind of remind me of Man City in the 2010-11 season, before they won the title. I don't think they became comfortable in Mancini's style until the next year when they won the title, so I'm wondering if it's kind of the same with us this season, and AVB is preparing the team to play in the possession style next season after we sign players who are appropriate for it.

Is my interpretation totally off or is there something to it?

 

[beats1]

Sahin never looked good at madrid because he wasnt fit and never looked good at Liverpool because he was played out of position

 

[Bill_Oddie]

There's definitely something to what you say. AVB does like his "vertical penetration" (ooh err), which means he loves the likes of Dembele and Walker who get the ball and run past opponents (creating an extra man in attack and stretching defence). Likewise, he likes passers who achieve a similar thing but with the ball rather themselves. There is a value to both in any system. As there is to horizontal passers who stretch the opposition width-wise. AVB seems to avoid the big diagonals loved by Harry and executed by Dawson at every available opportunity until recently. I like this, although they are useful if we're chasing a game and have a decent target man.

Pressing high certainly does few favours to Dempsey's style. Don't forget, we were looking elsewhere and he was a decent bargain with proven form (and he's scored some important goals) at the last minute. We've done a lot worse in the past. We just need to do a lot better in future.

 

[JAYSTAR]

I agree with your point boris. Different systems do suit different players.
If avb does still want do go to 433 then he will still be after moutinho, but if not he'll be trying to find wing forwards who score regularly and a good number 9.
The big risk with 4231 is that you commit the front 4 rather than 3 to positions higher up the pitch which means our midfield 2 are overrun. Sandro and dembele are fit and strong enough to cope provided they get rotated occasionally, but not many cms are.
433 would be better and less exhausting for the middle 3.
I also agree about the need for ball control strength and vision from the front players when we play so much in the opposition half. Barca play this way. Intricate passing until space is created. Even arsenal have played this way in the past, but you have to have players with the acceleration and skill to pass and move in very little space...

Who we go for will depend on which formation he settles on. 433 will suit bigger and/or faster players like remy, nani, benteke, michu.
4231 needs smaller, more skillful goal scoring players in the wide positions like mata, hazard, da silva, iniesta, pedro... NONE of which we will be able to buy..!

 

[ItsBoris]

I agree with your point boris. Different systems do suit different players.
If avb does still want do go to 433 then he will still be after moutinho, but if not he'll be trying to find wing forwards who score regularly and a good number 9.
The big risk with 4231 is that you commit the front 4 rather than 3 to positions higher up the pitch which means our midfield 2 are overrun. Sandro and dembele are fit and strong enough to cope provided they get rotated occasionally, but not many cms are.
433 would be better and less exhausting for the middle 3.
I also agree about the need for ball control strength and vision from the front players when we play so much in the opposition half. Barca play this way. Intricate passing until space is created. Even arsenal have played this way in the past, but you have to have players with the acceleration and skill to pass and move in very little space...

Who we go for will depend on which formation he settles on. 433 will suit bigger and/or faster players like remy, nani, benteke, michu.
4231 needs smaller, more skillful goal scoring players in the wide positions like mata, hazard, da silva, iniesta, pedro... NONE of which we will be able to buy..!

Yep and I think AVB knows of the players he needs for this, but we went for different players in the summer who were almost all more suited to counter attacking football. Apparently the only one he really wanted was Sigurdsson, which makes sense since he played in a similar system at Swansea.

In regards to the 4-3-3 vs 4-2-3-1, I think AVB will intend to implement a 4-3-3. I like the idea of Bale as a wide forward a lot more than I do of him as an attacking midfielder. I think the teams that are really successful with 4-2-3-1 have an attacking midfielder who can easily drop back and form a 3 man central midfield, like Kroos, Ozil, and Cazorla. I think Holtby could probably do that for us but we might as well just play a 4-3-3 formation anyway if it's what AVB prefers.

The one thing I think is that this summer AVB should identify more than one target that he needs for each position. If we can't get Moutinho then someone like Jordie Clasie would be an excellent, cheaper alternative. I also agree that Nani, Benteke, and Michu would be excellent targets for probably reasonable prices.

 

[JAYSTAR]

Yep and I think AVB knows of the players he needs for this, but we went for different players in the summer who were almost all more suited to counter attacking football. Apparently the only one he really wanted was Sigurdsson, which makes sense since he played in a similar system at Swansea.

In regards to the 4-3-3 vs 4-2-3-1, I think AVB will intend to implement a 4-3-3. I like the idea of Bale as a wide forward a lot more than I do of him as an attacking midfielder. I think the teams that are really successful with 4-2-3-1 have an attacking midfielder who can easily drop back and form a 3 man central midfield, like Kroos, Ozil, and Cazorla. I think Holtby could probably do that for us but we might as well just play a 4-3-3 formation anyway if it's what AVB prefers.

The one thing I think is that this summer AVB should identify more than one target that he needs for each position. If we can't get Moutinho then someone like Jordie Clasie would be an excellent, cheaper alternative. I also agree that Nani, Benteke, and Michu would be excellent targets for probably reasonable prices.

Yep agree again. 433 is the better formation for me, given the players we have. Dembele and moutinho or classie need to be freed to carry the ball forward etc with sandro and the remaining cm sitting. Classie looks good to me too and young and I agree we need to have a fallback option if moutinho can't or won't come.
Yanited have two cms who just sit and control the middle, as do chelsea. But dembele is one of our best players and should be more free to roam forward, pressure for the ball and instigate attacks.
We always look outnumbered in the middle and its clear teams are pressing dembele specifically to limit our attacking threat.. hence we see parker stuttering up the field instead, looking a bit surprised to be in the oppositions half.
Willian was a bit out of our league but was the perfect type of wing forward. I could see nani loving the freedom to attack and score for us and remy does still look pacey and a quality player, so hopefully we get the wing forward, number 9 and cm we need, you never know.

 

[Wardy]

If you watched his Porto team, they were very direct as you've mentioned and destroyed people on the counter. He's building a team to replicate that I feel.

He loves raw speed in his team, hence why he opted JD over Ade earlier in the season for example, even though Ade was better than JD last season.

At Porto, they had valero, mountinho, hulk etc. who are all quick players. For this reason, people like Ade/Dempsey/Hudd will be phased out through new transfers in the summer, in my opinion.

 

[talkshowhost86]

I think, from his time at Porto, AVB certainly favours the 4-3-3 and I think he was planning to build his team around a midfield of Dembele/Sandro/Moutinho, and having failed to get Moutinho he basically had to change that system entirely.

I'm not quite sure how Holtby/Sigurdsson/Dempsey fit into that system though, and even Lennon might struggle in that formation, so it could require a bit of a squad overhaul to properly implement the 'Porto system'.

Having said that, AVB could equally have shifted his view on what system he prefers now that he's in a different league so it's not easy to know what he'll go for. Hopefully though, whichever system he wants to implement, he'll actually be allowed to get the players who fit that system.

 

[StartingPrice]

I can't claim that the U-21 and U-18 teams have been playing 4-3-3 all season, as I have seen every game they've played, but I was interested to note that they have played it a few times when I have seen them. It would suggest that we are aiming for it (maybe) as a club style, and that AVB will be switching the 1st team to it next season. I have found it strange, however, that we have had the opportunity to switch to it this season, due to injuries, and haven't. I would have preferred to have seen Carroll as a three man mid (but definitely not a two), rather than some of concoctions he's sent out (BAE on the wing = Eeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww ).

I agree with TSH, however, AVB could have decided that 4-3-3 won't work in the EPL - which may be why he hasn't tried it even when it seemed likely that he would.

 

[mpickard2087]

I think a lot of the time its essentially been a 4-4-2 (especially when Dempsey plays there).

Agree about needing technical creative players to make it work, but also intelligent players off the ball. On the whole our play in the 'danger area' between the oppositions midfield and defence is woeful (Bale has his moments, but is still learning the role and his play is all about himself too often). Pretty much none of our players are adept at looking to get into that area for time and space and then try and play the pass in from there. Watch our matches, when our players have the ball you will see people standing in the midfield block, or attacking block, never between the lines that a Mata, Silva etc will look to do.

As I have said all season, I'd like to see a 4-3-3, and I think we need a creative player in the centre of the park, plus another in the front three.

 

[ItsBoris]

Yep agree again. 433 is the better formation for me, given the players we have. Dembele and moutinho or classie need to be freed to carry the ball forward etc with sandro and the remaining cm sitting. Classie looks good to me too and young and I agree we need to have a fallback option if moutinho can't or won't come.
Yanited have two cms who just sit and control the middle, as do chelsea. But dembele is one of our best players and should be more free to roam forward, pressure for the ball and instigate attacks.
We always look outnumbered in the middle and its clear teams are pressing dembele specifically to limit our attacking threat.. hence we see parker stuttering up the field instead, looking a bit surprised to be in the oppositions half.
Willian was a bit out of our league but was the perfect type of wing forward. I could see nani loving the freedom to attack and score for us and remy does still look pacey and a quality player, so hopefully we get the wing forward, number 9 and cm we need, you never know.

Idk why but JJetset said there is no chance of Remy coming here in summer. How great would it be though if we signed Moutinho, Benteke, and Nani, I think that could possibly make us good enough for a title challenge. We would still need a LB and another striker though I think.

 

[chrissivad]

Townsend will fit into that style with easy.

From what i have seen of him over the last few years he always picks the ball up and drives with it. He also doesnt stay out wide and will cut in heading towards the goals.

Still a lot of work for him to do, but can see him getting a fair amount of game time next season.

 

[BillyWhizz]

He seemed to try the 4-2-3-1 at the beginning of the season but we didn't look comfortable. A fast direct 433 should be a great tactic in this league, our slower more possession based game has worked well for us away from home for example but we've struggled in Europe like this where the usual fast paced English game can often overrun smaller and slower Euro teams.

I want to see us play more like we did against Inter at home recently, they couldn't live with us that night it was probably our best performance of the season so we CAN currently play like that we just don't very often.

 

[SteveH]

AVB's aim with his system is flexibility.
As Dortmund found out in the first half last night when they were quire frankly awful and far from good when "always going forward", christ, they made more sideways passes than I've seen from any top team this season. Malaga did a very good job on Dortmund last night.
Which is where all systems live and die at the higher levels, its how you "adapt on the day" to the opposition.

If you are very rigid in your set up like ManU you run the risk of being out skilled by the top clubs in Europe. City lack this flexibility also at the moment and it cost them big time in Europe.

Chelsea showed with correct setup last season you can work wonders in Europe, but the same flexibility let them down in the league to some degree but we are talking Chelsea so who knows.

AVB is trying I believe, to now teach the squad to adapt to differing situation as a reflex and this is the cornerstone of his coaching.

433, 442 or 451 et al, only come into play when playing the lower teams, but being able to adapt is the key, or get lucky like Dortmund did of course.

 

[talkshowhost86]

AVB's aim with his system is flexibility.
As Dortmund found out in the first half last night when they were quire frankly awful and far from good when "always going forward", christ, they made more sideways passes than I've seen from any top team this season. Malaga did a very good job on Dortmund last night.
Which is where all systems live and die at the higher levels, its how you "adapt on the day" to the opposition.

If you are very rigid in your set up like ManU you run the risk of being out skilled by the top clubs in Europe. City lack this flexibility also at the moment and it cost them big time in Europe.

Chelsea showed with correct setup last season you can work wonders in Europe, but the same flexibility let them down in the league to some degree but we are talking Chelsea so who knows.

AVB is trying I believe, to now teach the squad to adapt to differing situation as a reflex and this is the cornerstone of his coaching.

433, 442 or 451 et al, only come into play when playing the lower teams, but being able to adapt is the key, or get lucky like Dortmund did of course.

Very good point. It's all very well having a 'system' but if someone figures out how to get around it (and that will happen to EVERY system) then you need to be able to adapt.

Look what has happened to Arsenal since they had their unbeaten season. Teams worked out that pressing them everywhere fucked them up and when they tried to keep playing the system it didn't work.

I suppose this is where players like Dempsey, Sigurdsson and Holtby should be useful as they are flexible.

 

[himel420]

Yep and I think AVB knows of the players he needs for this, but we went for different players in the summer who were almost all more suited to counter attacking football. Apparently the only one he really wanted was Sigurdsson, which makes sense since he played in a similar system at Swansea.

In regards to the 4-3-3 vs 4-2-3-1, I think AVB will intend to implement a 4-3-3. I like the idea of Bale as a wide forward a lot more than I do of him as an attacking midfielder. I think the teams that are really successful with 4-2-3-1 have an attacking midfielder who can easily drop back and form a 3 man central midfield, like Kroos, Ozil, and Cazorla. I think Holtby could probably do that for us but we might as well just play a 4-3-3 formation anyway if it's what AVB prefers.

The one thing I think is that this summer AVB should identify more than one target that he needs for each position. If we can't get Moutinho then someone like Jordie Clasie would be an excellent, cheaper alternative. I also agree that Nani, Benteke, and Michu would be excellent targets for probably reasonable prices.

Where will lennon fit in the 433 system as he lacks goal and dynamism of wing forward role

 

[mpickard2087]

Where will lennon fit in the 433 system as he lacks goal and dynamism of wing forward role

Evolve or die.

(In terms of his place in the Spurs team!)

 

[SteveH]

Very good point. It's all very well having a 'system' but if someone figures out how to get around it (and that will happen to EVERY system) then you need to be able to adapt.

Look what has happened to Arsenal since they had their unbeaten season. Teams worked out that pressing them everywhere fucked them up and when they tried to keep playing the system it didn't work.

I suppose this is where players like Dempsey, Sigurdsson and Holtby should be useful as they are flexible.

I agree - Dempsey is just rusty/comatosed - but their flexibility stood out on Sunday and we showed great fight.

Not having Gareth in the side does allow the team to not continually keep focusing on "that pass to Bale" which does clip the wing of the daring duo, Ade and Jermain.

I sounds a little daft, but I quit like us balance wise, without our very own superhero on the pitch.

EDIT No that does not mean I dont want Bale back (this note is just for some of our brethren, they know who they are)

 

[Booney]

To play the pressing game I really feel that you need pace up-front. Defenders are then forced to back off a few yards which then allows us to play further up the field. Although Benteke is more mobile than Ade, I still don't see him fitting into this system. Someone like Remy would be a better fit.

 

[brasil_spur]

I've been thinking about this a bit, especially re-watching the Everton game, but I think I'm beginning to understand why AVB didn't want a lot of the players we bought in summer. It also came about from watching Dortmund today and thinking about how they play.

Dortmund's style of play seems to be very direct, they get the ball and they immediately attack. Almost every pass they play is forward. I think they are probably the best team in the world at doing that. So I thought that may be why Kagawa and Sahin never looked as good at United/Madrid/Liverpool as they did in the Dortmund team. Perhaps players find it easier to express their ability in that sort of system. That doesn't necessarily make a direct, counter-attacking style better, but perhaps it is an easier system for players to slot into.

I'd say our style of play under AVB is quite the opposite. For the most part, we are more slow in the build up, we play a high line and we press up the pitch. Not always, but this is usually how we play. We try to control the game in the other team's half. And I've noticed that under AVB that one of the areas that we look significantly better in is pressing. But playing this way means that our players have less space to play in, and so in order to be successful the play has to be more intricate, intelligent and skillful. Imo you need players who are tricky and creative in attack, sort of like David Silva. None of our players really have both of those qualities, and I think to play the possession game you need at least one of those players to unlock defenses. I think some of the players we've signed recently (Holtby, Siggy, Dembele, Walker etc) can be successful in this system and probably just need time to adjust. Others like Dempsey I think just can't succeed with limited time and space. I think that's the only way to explain how he scored 17 goals for Fulham but barely looks like a footballer here. He just doesn't have the skills to thrive in the style that AVB wants to play.

Another observation is I would say that we kind of remind me of Man City in the 2010-11 season, before they won the title. I don't think they became comfortable in Mancini's style until the next year when they won the title, so I'm wondering if it's kind of the same with us this season, and AVB is preparing the team to play in the possession style next season after we sign players who are appropriate for it.

Is my interpretation totally off or is there something to it?

This has winning thread written all over it, remind me when the SC awards are next up to vote this to the top.

I think you're spot on with your analysis of the type of players we need and examples of this can be clearly seen in:

Bale - is exactly the type of tricky, creative player that thrives in this system in the role he is now in, more so that the leg it down the wing and beat the RB style he was playing before.

Lennon - is doing fairly well considering he really fits the mould of a RM in a 4-4-2 formation to a tee. He is trickty and creative enough (just about) to be pretty successful for us.

Parker - is not doing so well as he ie neither tricky nor creative really and whilst he hard working and solid presence in a PL team usually makes him very competent, he doesn't really fit the AVB style so well.

There are other examples, obviously, but i think and hope what we'll see in the summer is a raft of highly creative and tricky players coming into the team, in my mind if we keep Bale we'll end up going down the line of playing a very Barcelona style of football, albeit with some differences.