Alan Sugar

[drjimmy]

But I don't think anyone has claimed that he's a nice bloke, that he came in through altruistic motives, that he didn't make some serious errors of judgement on the footballing side and generally piss off far too many people.

What I don't understand is the point-blank refusal of several of people, including some who were obviously around at the time, to accept that there was no real alternative if we wished to remain a First Division club. I think most of us, except for a handful who had their heads buried in the sand, realised things were going badly on the financial side, and that there were major rifts in the boardroom; no-one, I believe, realised just how bad they actually were until the 1990 figures were finally released in January '91. As a reminder, here they are:

Losses £2.6m. Trading profits of (£1.3m) wiped out by interest charges. Added to which, we were in hock to the Midland to the tune of £12m because of the overrun on the rebuilding of the East Stand.

By that time, of course, Maxwell's takeover plans had been leaked to the press, and although he had decided not to go ahead because of the crash in share prices after Saddam invaded Kuwait, he changed his mind. Scholar had booted out his partner Bobroff, and then our share price was frozen and Scholar himself had to resign.

Venables tried to put together a consortium to put in a rival bid to Maxwell's, we agreed to sell Gazza to Lazio for £8m, and then Venables' bid was rejected, along with a subsequent one. Our reported liabilities stood at £22m.

SLY, to say we were in a 'sticky patch' is something of an understatement.

We won the Cup, but Gazza smashed his leg up and the Lazio deal was put on hold (it was over a year before it was finally concluded, for £2.5m less than the fee originally agreed). So that lifeline was cut, and Maxwell's bid stood. It was at that point that Venables (with some connivance from the Dirty Digger) persuaded Sugarplum to put in an eleventh-hour counter-bid, which was accepted.

Does anyone disagree with that little summary?

Now, how anyone can airily announce that it is 'not plausible' that the club/Scholar would not have accepted the Bouncing Czech's offer is beyond me, because it was all but a done deal. There was no alternative. And whilst it was widely suspected that Maxwell was dodgy, no-one had any idea just how spectacularly bent he was until everything came out in the wake of his whale impersonation six months later. If he'd got his hooks into us that would have been curtains.

Do people seriously believe that a bunch of administrators could have stepped in and kept us afloat as a First Division outfit? Dream on. If we'd flogged the entire 1991 cup-winning team it would barely have covered half the debt—the transfer fees we eventually received for them are a matter of record. As has been pointed out, we'd already flogged the Cheshunt training ground. Sorry, folks, but anyone who believes that we wouldn't have been totally and utterly fucked is living in la-la land.

Spurs might well have survived in some form, but as a top-flight outfit? I think not.

Slap bang, on the money! :clap: :clap:

 

[Gilzeanking]

'Think speculate' , etc . As I've said twice now , I'm not convinced that ALL the pertinent facts are known to say what the various financial options were at the time .

I respect the opinions of those who speculate that we would have turned into a Leeds , but speculations they remain .

To answer RSS's question , what did he do that was SO bad . I must assume you never saw a Francis team for instance . The ball was hoofed high into the sky so much ,neck linament was required to watch the team . Imagine Spurs turned into Birmingham now in terms of tactics and technique you would go beserk ....We went beserk .

Our traditions(attacking , skilled football,) were completely trashed . The much ridiculed ( in the media) cry 'we want our Spurs back' that rang out was made in true desperation .Supporters set up groups like SOS (save our Spurs) who's sole aim was to oust Sugar and yes , the pressure got very ugly and personal , but sadly that was the only thing that would work against a man like Sugar...and it did work and we have now recovered. This sort of thing has never happened in my time with Spurs and was a direct response from disenfranchised supporters to what was going on on the pitch .

Remember, the Gascoine Lineker Waddles years were a recent memory . It was a deliberate downsizing and yes , we missed the boat with the explosion of new talent coming in from overseas .This was SO frustrating as we had always been pioneers with new techniques and overseas talent and now the worst ugly fouling collection of thugs...Arsenal , adapted swiftly with their visionary chairman and we swapped places with them watching them gallop ahead thrashing us with displays of great skill .

Personally I never gave a shit that he was horrible to everyone he came across .If he'd been able to steer us properly then OK...but he didn't . He wasn't up to the job of being our chairman and it took him years (and a mountain of direct abuse) to realise this .

I'm going to have a lie down now ,these memories are distressing ...A terrible time when dyed in the wool Spurs supporters actually looked for defeats so that it would hasten a change of regime...

... you can't imagine anything worse than that can you .

 

[C0YS]

'Think speculate' , etc . As I've said twice now , I'm not convinced that ALL the pertinent facts are known to say what the various financial options were at the time .

I respect the opinions of those who speculate that we would have turned into a Leeds , but speculations they remain .

To answer RSS's question , what did he do that was SO bad . I must assume you never saw a Francis team for instance . The ball was hoofed high into the sky so much ,neck linament was required to watch the team . Imagine Spurs turned into Birmingham now in terms of tactics and technique you would go beserk ....We went beserk .

Our traditions(attacking , skilled football,) were completely trashed . The much ridiculed ( in the media) cry 'we want our Spurs back' that rang out was made in true desperation .Supporters set up groups like SOS (save our Spurs) who's sole aim was to oust Sugar and yes , the pressure got very ugly and personal , but sadly that was the only thing that would work against a man like Sugar...and it did work and we have now recovered. This sort of thing has never happened in my time with Spurs and was a direct response from disenfranchised supporters to what was going on on the pitch .

Remember, the Gascoine Lineker Waddles years were a recent memory . It was a deliberate downsizing and yes , we missed the boat with the explosion of new talent coming in from overseas .This was SO frustrating as we had always been pioneers with new techniques and overseas talent and now the worst ugly fouling collection of thugs...Arsenal , adapted swiftly with their visionary chairman and we swapped places with them watching them gallop ahead thrashing us with displays of great skill .

Personally I never gave a shit that he was horrible to everyone he came across .If he'd been able to steer us properly then OK...but he didn't . He wasn't up to the job of being our chairman and it took him years (and a mountain of direct abuse) to realise this .

I'm going to have a lie down now ,these memories are distressing ...A terrible time when dyed in the wool Spurs supporters actually looked for defeats so that it would hasten a change of regime...

... you can't imagine anything worse than that can you .

How has that got to do with sugar, you must know that thats the Mannegers choice. Lets just say if Ramos decided he wanted us to kick the ball up the feild and play like wimbledon. Levy wont sack Ramos!!

 

[Rocksuperstar]

To answer RSS's question , what did he do that was SO bad . I must assume you never saw a Francis team for instance . The ball was hoofed high into the sky so much ,neck linament was required to watch the team . Imagine Spurs turned into Birmingham now in terms of tactics and technique you would go beserk ....We went beserk .

Our traditions(attacking , skilled football,) were completely trashed . The much ridiculed ( in the media) cry 'we want our Spurs back' that rang out was made in true desperation .Supporters set up groups like SOS (save our Spurs) who's sole aim was to oust Sugar and yes , the pressure got very ugly and personal , but sadly that was the only thing that would work against a man like Sugar...and it did work and we have now recovered. This sort of thing has never happened in my time with Spurs and was a direct response from disenfranchised supporters to what was going on on the pitch.

So, you basically hate him for the fault of everyone else around him then? :shrug:

He had nothing to do with the football side of things - if you want someone to be pissed at at the time, how about those who spent all the millions of pounds he made available?

The closest he got was to make it known that he was unhappy that the English game was being flooded with overpayed talent from overseas - an opinion voiced by many, many people over the last 20 years or so. So what? We missed out on a few "superstars" because of it? Bullshit - if we'd signed them we'd have plunged ourselves into even more poop and the phrase would more than likely now be "done a Tottenham", rather than a Leeds.

None of us have tried to claim he was a saint - he was someone with a lot of money and a very, very shrewd business head on his shoulders, with a record for being able to pull gold out of shit. He wasn't afraid to tell things exactly as they were and he came to do a job. He didn't come to make friends, to win hearts or get slaps on the back. I don't recall ever reading anywhere that he was interfering with team selection or tactics. :shrug:

How can you possibly blame him for the shit teams and shit tactics we were applying at the time? You say "Never saw a Francis team" - yeah, i did and i totally agree - we were abysmal but that was Francis' call, not Sugars.

 

[southlondonyiddo]

Interviewed in 2005 he said:

"[Football players are] scum, total scum. They're bigger scum than journalists, don't you understand? They don't know what honesty or loyalty is. They're the biggest scum that walk on this planet and, if they weren't football players, most of them would be in prison, it's as simple as that.

How to win friends and influence people, by Sir Al!!

How can you run a successful football club when you have no support from the players or media, let alone the fans, when he appointed GG?

 

[dannythomas]

'Think speculate' , etc . As I've said twice now , I'm not convinced that ALL the pertinent facts are known to say what the various financial options were at the time .

I respect the opinions of those who speculate that we would have turned into a Leeds , but speculations they remain .

To answer RSS's question , what did he do that was SO bad . I must assume you never saw a Francis team for instance . The ball was hoofed high into the sky so much ,neck linament was required to watch the team . Imagine Spurs turned into Birmingham now in terms of tactics and technique you would go beserk ....We went beserk .

Our traditions(attacking , skilled football,) were completely trashed . The much ridiculed ( in the media) cry 'we want our Spurs back' that rang out was made in true desperation .Supporters set up groups like SOS (save our Spurs) who's sole aim was to oust Sugar and yes , the pressure got very ugly and personal , but sadly that was the only thing that would work against a man like Sugar...and it did work and we have now recovered. This sort of thing has never happened in my time with Spurs and was a direct response from disenfranchised supporters to what was going on on the pitch .

Remember, the Gascoine Lineker Waddles years were a recent memory . It was a deliberate downsizing and yes , we missed the boat with the explosion of new talent coming in from overseas .This was SO frustrating as we had always been pioneers with new techniques and overseas talent and now the worst ugly fouling collection of thugs...Arsenal , adapted swiftly with their visionary chairman and we swapped places with them watching them gallop ahead thrashing us with displays of great skill .

Personally I never gave a shit that he was horrible to everyone he came across .If he'd been able to steer us properly then OK...but he didn't . He wasn't up to the job of being our chairman and it took him years (and a mountain of direct abuse) to realise this .

I'm going to have a lie down now ,these memories are distressing ...A terrible time when dyed in the wool Spurs supporters actually looked for defeats so that it would hasten a change of regime...

... you can't imagine anything worse than that can you .

Klinsmann, Sheringham, Ginola were of course all terrible players signed in the Sugar years. Likewise when Graham wanted to spend 11m on Rebrov, Sugar agreed. He also sanctioned the signings of world cup star players Popescu and Dumitrescu . The fact that 2 of those 3 players were crap for us was of course all his fault too. I seem to remember reasonable transfer fees being spent on the likes of Sherwood , Anderton, Ferdinand and Armstrong too. Did Sugar select these players too ?

 

[ziggy]

I will always be grateful to SAS, always

 

[thfcsteff]

Nice post 57, but I'll tell you something mate, a nice selection of facts but not all of them...as you yourself will remember mate, there was more to it...books exist on the subject...

 

[mkkid]

So, you basically hate him for the fault of everyone else around him then? :shrug:

He had nothing to do with the football side of things - if you want someone to be pissed at at the time, how about those who spent all the millions of pounds he made available?

The closest he got was to make it known that he was unhappy that the English game was being flooded with overpayed talent from overseas - an opinion voiced by many, many people over the last 20 years or so. So what? We missed out on a few "superstars" because of it? Bullshit - if we'd signed them we'd have plunged ourselves into even more poop and the phrase would more than likely now be "done a Tottenham", rather than a Leeds.

None of us have tried to claim he was a saint - he was someone with a lot of money and a very, very shrewd business head on his shoulders, with a record for being able to pull gold out of shit. He wasn't afraid to tell things exactly as they were and he came to do a job. He didn't come to make friends, to win hearts or get slaps on the back. I don't recall ever reading anywhere that he was interfering with team selection or tactics. :shrug:

.

No but he restricted our signing policy,with his carlos kick a ball bollocks
We turned down Berkamp,Zola,hullit and signed Fox and Armstrong,Sinton,Wilson and various donkeys instead!
After all Arsenal paid 7.5 million for Berkamp and we paid 4.5 million for Armstong. Chelsea signed Zola for 4.5 Million,we turn him down and signed R Fox for 4 million.

 

[Wiener]

Who knows for certain what would have happened if Sugar had not bought THFC in 1991? Anyone who says they do is not to be taken seriously.

While the club was in a dire financial situation, what is quite clear is that english football as a whole was recovering by the 1991. English clubs were back in Europe since 1990. Also the momentum for a Premiership breakaway was well on it's way by 1991. Murdoch had been working on implementing his strategy for bringing pay TV to the UK for quite some time by that time and was probably one of the main driving forces behind the breakaway. The Premier Leagues's founder member agreement had been signed by July 1991. While we were undoubtedly in the shit, it is clear that english football was recovering after some dark years and the worst of the recession (interest rates peaked in 1990) was behind us.

I think there is a case for arguing that ultimately THFC continued as a going concern in the top flight thanks mostly to Murdoch rather than Sugar. The last thing Murdoch (or any of the other big 5 Premier League clubs for that matter) would have wanted was one of the top 5 english clubs (with a wealthy and loyal fan base of around 1mln) going into administration and being relegated. Murdoch quite clearly supported Sugar's bid and behind the scenes helped persuade him with his vision for english football and pay TV. Aside from that Murdoch hated Maxwell and knew very well that his business empire was about to collapse. This was all part of a long-running battle between Murdoch and Maxwell, and by 1991 Murdoch was well on top.

My aim is not to personally insult Sugar and belittle the important contribution he made to our survival in the top flight in 1991, but to say that without Sugar we wouldn't exist is silly. It is also silly to claim to know what would have happened if Sugar hadn't bought Scholar's controlling share.

 

[Jimmypearce7]

Sugar came to the club's rescue in 1991. Venables had been casting around for a partner to buy the shares of Scholar etc and no one else was coming up with the money.
But, that was 1991 and he has to be judged by the ten years or so he was in charge.
From stability in 1991, Spurs were one of the best placed clubs- with Arsenal, Liverpool and Man Utd, to use the formation of the Premier League to become very succesful- history, fanbase, being in London and able to attract the very best players.
By the time Sugar left we were also rans. Why? because the people who ran the clubs which have had consistent success since the Premier League started had the vision and absolute determination to see their club succeed that Sugar lacked. So by the time he moved on, we were left with the much more difficult position of catching up.

 

[Gilzeanking]

The idea that Sugar had nothing to do with our abominable 90s performance is laughable and is connected I suspect , with the fact that he has become a celeb on some trashy tv show .

Some celebs aren't perfect y'know

 

[DC555]

It's a tough call.

Yes he saved us, but for me I also consider that when he took us over we were on a par with Man U, Arsenal and Liverpool.

Sadly in 2001 when he sold up we were nowhere near them.

However, it it was him or Maxwell, I know where I'd put my money.

Like I said it's a tough call

 

[Wiener]

However, it it was him or Maxwell, I know where I'd put my money.

I agree. Given the hypothetical question "Sugar or Maxwell?", in other words assuming those were the only 2 possibilities, Sugar wins hands down.

 

[Kendall]

Yes he saved us, but for me I also consider that when he took us over we were on a par with Man U, Arsenal and Liverpool.

No, I don't agree.

 

[SpurSince57]

If Maxwell's bid had been merely hypothetical, do you think Venables would have been trying so desperately to find an alternative? Or that Murdoch would have been so concerned that he persuaded Sugar to get involved? Maxwell's bid was very real indeed.

Left to itself, as it was, the club would almost certainly have got by, because the Midland wasn't going to foreclose and we'd actually sorted out a new loan and overdraft arrangement (if I recall correctly, we had a bloke called Nat Solomon to thank for that). It would have been tough, but as long as we'd avoided relegation we'd have hung on for a year until the cavalry arrived in the shape of Sky Sports.

On the other hand, if Maxwell's bid had been accepted—and there is every likelihood that it would have been—things would have gone very differently. True, no-one can say exactly what would have happened, but you can be pretty sure it wouldn't have been good.

 

[TheChosenOne]

When Sugar/Vernables took over Spurs, there was no Premier League, the English teams had been out of Europe for 5 years since Heysel, Man Utd had been under SAF for four years and the only thing that saved him was winning the 90 final against Palace, Arsenal had recently completed a double after years in the wilderness and the great Liverpool team of the 80's was breaking up.

Having had moderate cup success early in the eighties and also a couple of good tilts at the title ourselves during that time we were victims of financial mismanagement by the then board headed up by Scholar and on the edge of bankruptcy.

SAS came in grudgingly as a backer, and for which I am glad, but he wasn't a "fairy godfather" he made millions on his investments and underwritings, as some people seem to think he had his hand in his pocket giving out freebies to save the club.

 

[SpurSince57]

He bought in for just £8m (coincidentally, what we'd agreed with Lazio for Gazza) and made a very handsome profit.

 

[TheChosenOne]

And

(from wiki)

In June 2007, Sugar sold the remainder of his shares in the club (a 12% holding), to ENIC Sports Ltd for £25 million.

 

[Wiener]

If Maxwell's bid had been merely hypothetical, do you think Venables would have been trying so desperately to find an alternative? Or that Murdoch would have been so concerned that he persuaded Sugar to get involved? Maxwell's bid was very real indeed.

Left to itself, as it was, the club would almost certainly have got by, because the Midland wasn't going to foreclose and we'd actually sorted out a new loan and overdraft arrangement (if I recall correctly, we had a bloke called Nat Solomon to thank for that). It would have been tough, but as long as we'd avoided relegation we'd have hung on for a year until the cavalry arrived in the shape of Sky Sports.

On the other hand, if Maxwell's bid had been accepted—and there is every likelihood that it would have been—things would have gone very differently. True, no-one can say exactly what would have happened, but you can be pretty sure it wouldn't have been good.

I agree that Maxwell's bid was very real. I never meant to suggest that the bid itself was hypothetical. But there is the question whether he would have been in a position to buy Scholar's share at a time when his businesses were hemorrhaging cash. Also I think he had already made an approach in the late eighties and pulled out (or possibly been rebuffed). Before that in 1984 he had pulled out of a bid for Manure.

As you pointed out Nat Solomon had managed to placate Midland Bank enough to buy some time for the club. Having said that the problem was that Scholar seems to have been desperate to raise some cash as his property empire was in dire straits too.

Overall I am not really in disagreement with you and share many of your opinions on the matter. Initially I was objecting to comments like "Without Sugar we wouldn't exist" and that led me try and find out what actually happened in those dark days.