ENIC...

dontcallme · Jan 10, 2023

Some of the arguments being presented are excessively weird.

the yid · Jan 10, 2023

Albertbarich said:
You can't just throw them casually into murdering millions ?

It's shady , no doubt but stick to facts because throwing around wild accusations will only hurt your argument when they prove to be just that.

I mean a short google shows they still stone people, as I said I was talking about all the sports washing countries as a whole but point taken! Thousands then :sneaky:

glacierSpurs · Jan 10, 2023

the yid said:
I am aware of the history and it's not a problem today in 2023. Sportswashing in football is a joke and these oil states are a problem in 2023. There's a difference between oil states and other billionaires, I'm glad I can draw the line and not happily accept these people in my club, these beliefs shouldn't be allowed in this country and we're letting them run part of our club. I do not stand or agree with anything they believe in sorry I can't support it like most here and all City and Newcastle fans did just because well if yiu can't beat them join them. I'd rather Spurs in league 2 than be owned by an oil state.

I just feel sad at this last line mate. Just for your beliefs you are able to put the livelihoods of so many others working for the club to be degraded, affected and endangered, especially if getting by in life is just some of their one and only priority. ? How is this thinking correct and different from the wrongs you deemed on these oil states?

arunspurs · Jan 10, 2023

the yid said:
Official line is no but there's been many reported stoning deaths in Qatar and the murder millions aimed at all of those sportswashing countries.

Population of Qatar 2.6million which includes 88% foreigners who come to work. So, If there is people being killed , thats probably in hundreds. Officially, death penalty was executed in 2020 after a gap of 20 yrs. Since then official count is 4 per year in last 3 yrs. Unofficially there is probably many more. But thousands & thousands - no chance IMO, given 88% foreigner population, such high numbers would have come been exposed by the country migrants are coming from.

There's no stoning in Qatar , only in Saudi. Main rights issue of qatar is, Kaffala system which makes the unskilled employees surrendering their passport and working like slaves in bad condition & the LGBT rights issue.

the yid · Jan 10, 2023

ILS said:
So when Mbappe scores a last minute winner for us in the Champions League final against Chelsea, you will sit there not celebrating because it is just plain wrong??

Just so you understand what type of person I am, I use to steal money when people weren't watching during Monopoly, I would ensure the dice rolled right so I could attend University during Game of Life, I pushed a girl over in the playground at the age 7 because I wasn't letting her beat me in a race.

So I couldn't give two shits where the money comes from as long as Spurs Win.

You are a terrible person

spursfan77 · Jan 10, 2023

the yid said:
Oh you make a great argument, it's fine they murder millions, stone women and gay people! Let's forget about that because they haven't evolved yet.......

I do not want that involved with my football club. This is England we have evolved we know what's right and wrong, I'm not going to abandon thatbfor the chance of a trophy. Yes every billionare is dodgy, but these people caused the death of thousands building a world cup they've just had, and had slaves building the stadium fuck that shit away from my club. Cheers

Do they? I’m asking the question because I don’t know, but millions seems a lot.

the yid · Jan 10, 2023

glacierSpurs said:
I just feel sad at this last line mate. Just for your beliefs you are able to put the livelihoods of so many others working for the club to be degraded, affected and endangered, especially if getting by in life is just some of their one and only priority. ? How is this thinking correct and different from the wrongs you deemed on these oil states?

Let me rephrase I would rather support a team in league 2 than a PL team sportswashing.

I'm heavily dyslexic with ADHD I'm not very good at getting my point across so be of leeway please guys.

ILS · Jan 10, 2023

the yid said:
You are a terrible person

The wife tells me that everyday!

the yid · Jan 10, 2023

spursfan77 said:
Do they? I’m asking the question because I don’t know, but millions seems a lot.

I have changed millions to people

Stuart Leathercock · Jan 10, 2023

davidmatzdorf said:
It is possible BOTH to be concerned about the lack of reparations for slavery and colonialism AND to abhor the behaviour of Qatar and Saudi Arabia and not want either of those regimes anywhere near THFC.

I agree with @Stamford's OP, but it isn't helping to focus the discussion, it's just causing confusion and giving people excuses to dodge the issue.

Of course, it is possible for a person born in the 20/21c. to concern themselves with the history of colonialism without flagellating themselves with fake liberal personal guilt. It's just bullshit and it's embarrassing,

More to the point, it's not an excuse to ignore the bigotry and misbehaviour of Qatar and Saudi Arabia.

The other way people are blowing smoke is by trying to conflate the ways in which billionaires like Joe Lewis got rich with the actions of those two states and others like them. Everyone here knows what I think of billionaires, but this really shouldn't be difficult.

Joe Lewis and those like him got rich by exploiting markets. They have hoarded a great deal of money that should be circulating in the economy and thus they are indirectly causing poverty and deprivation. But they are private individuals.

Qatar and SA are rogue states. They are controlled by fundamentalist, bigoted and violent religious sects and they routinely murder their own citizens and cause negligent homicides by the thousand. The deprive people, especially women, of their personal freedoms and they oppress LGBTQ people.

In the case of Qatar and the World Cup, there isn't even one layer of removal from the oppression: they allowed thousands of people to die while building the WC stadiums and they made it impossible for LGBTQ people to attend the WC safely. As for SA, the ruler was personally involved in killing and dismembering a prominent dissident who resided overseas. I mean ... what happens when they want to sack the manager?

I can support Spurs when we are owned by someone like Joe Lewis. If Qatari or SA interests buy into the club, I'll still support Spurs from a distance, but my season ticket will be going back and I won't attend matches regularly any more.

While I agree with most of your points, lumping Qatar in with Saudi Arabia when looking at murdering their own citizens isn't really fair. Qatar don't 'routinely murder their citizens' at all. Qatar have a death penalty that they actually very rarely use nowadays (I think one person put to death in the last 4 years). They certainly use their death penalty far less than the likes of Japan, South Korea, Egypt and the US (to name 4 countries that are considered more Western aligned than Qatar).

Stuart Leathercock · Jan 10, 2023

RuskyM said:
Right, we live in a capitalist hellscape, but you have to drink / buy food / live somewhere. You don’t have to support Spurs if supporting Spurs means supporting the suppression of real people. The reason these nations want to buy clubs is exactly the reason they shouldn’t be allowed to: it’s how geordies are now very happy to ignore Saudi’s atrocities.

No billionaire is innocent but a state is another thing entirely. Supporting them is enabling them. And yeah I’m a hypocrite because I watched the World Cup and I'm not going to make anyone feel anything, but fuckin hell surely we’ve got to draw a line somewhere?

Isn't there another option? To continue to support Spurs but continue to call out their atrocities and hope to engineer some positive change from within?

KILLA_SIN · Jan 10, 2023

I feel like this is a distraction from what we should be doing in Jan which is signing players

Stuart Leathercock · Jan 10, 2023

stormfly said:
I lived in Qatar for three years in 2008 and it’s true that they exploit people from poorer countries although these people were still earning better than they would at home (I spoke to a few Doctors that were taxi drivers there as it was more money than being a doctor back home!). I would say most of what you read and the actual reality of things there though are quite far apart. They seemed to be quite forward thinking and women seemed very respected out there. There were definitely not people being stoned to death in front of everyone. It’s still a very young country that’s trying to evolve but still trying to balance its Islamic roots (a very difficult balancing act indeed).

The saddest part of the whole experience for me were the actual westerners using the laws in their favour to exploit people from poorer countries by either running building projects (I can guarantee a lot of Westerners were involved in managing the WC stadiums) and exploiting the workers or using them as maids or nanny’s and treating them like dirt. Lots of people are quick to say how disgusting it is but many westerners are making lots of money out there and don’t seem too bothered.

Some great points here. Something one always has to consider is how long a country has had to develop. We can bitch and moan about the Qatar's capital punishment, the way it treats migrant workers, women, LGBTQ+ people, etc. However it really wasn't long ago in our history that we were doing exactly the same thing and indeed worse. Over time (mainly through education of the masses) we modernised, Qatar is in the process of doing the same. I would imagine Qatar may well modernise and get close to Western values reasonably quickly (in historical terms).

The more foreign assets and especially prestige assets that such states own, the greater the scrutiny into their laws and practices at home. The greater the scrutiny, the more likely we'll see them forced to change. I would rather our club wasn't part owned by a regime such as Qatar (though I think they are amongst the best and most forward thinking in that region). However the UK welcomes (more than welcomes but actively invites) investment from that region and therefore regimes from that region have every right to own THFC (partly or wholly) or any other business.

Tucker · Jan 10, 2023

Stuart Leathercock said:
Isn't there another option? To continue to support Spurs but continue to call out their atrocities and hope to engineer some positive change from within?

That’s naive in the extreme. Firstly you’re not within, you aren’t at the table with them, you have zero leverage over them. The Qatari royal family won’t care what you think and they won’t listen to you. You’re a fucking ant as far as they’re concerned.

Get real.

wishkah · Jan 10, 2023

not against investment as a fan, because i want us to win and compete. I wonder if this money will transfer to the pitch and players or would simply bolster the ownership.

but as a person, i fully object to this human rights washing process. i don't feel we can fall into the 'can't beat them join them camp'.

THFCSPURS19 · Jan 10, 2023

SandroClegane said:
The sportswashing has worked so well, I can't believe how many people are so blinded by a CHANCE to win something.

Has it? I'm not against the investment but it won't change my opinions on the country - and I assume that applies to many people.

Albertbarich · Jan 10, 2023

Tucker said:
That’s naive in the extreme. Firstly you’re not within, you aren’t at the table with them, you have zero leverage over them. The Qatari royal family won’t care what you think and they won’t listen to you. You’re a fucking ant as far as they’re concerned.

Get real.

I feel like that's the same with every government and big firm.

Nobody gives a shit about us mere mortals.

A guy started with us before Xmas and he said he was a diplomat before but they had given it all up to come back to the UK. Now I'm not sure if he was being truthful or not but he was genuinely shocked at how we were treated. It really got to him and when I said you get used to it he looked sad. He's quit now ?.

Point is how many of us are lucky to feel valued at work ? I'm not that's for sure, never have been.

Sure we have much stricter health and safety laws here but that doesn't stop these Eastern European people working in farms and factories here being treated just short of slaves whilst living in squaller.

You probably think it's irrelevant but we should take into account this shit we live around too when judging others

Tucker · Jan 10, 2023

Albertbarich said:
I feel like that's the same with every government and big firm.

Nobody gives a shit about us mere mortals.

A guy started with us before Xmas and he said he was a diplomat before but they had given it all up to come back to the UK. Now I'm not sure if he was being truthful or not but he was genuinely shocked at how we were treated. It really got to him and when I said you get used to it he looked sad. He's quit now ?.

Point is how many of us are lucky to feel valued at work ? I'm not that's for sure, never have been.

Sure we have much stricter health and safety laws here but that doesn't stop these Eastern European people working in farms and factories here being treated just short of slaves whilst living in squaller.

You probably think it's irrelevant but we should take into account this shit we live around too when judging others

We can do something about that though. The average Qatari can’t vote for a different government. It’s an absolute monarchy. And while there may be poverty and poor conditions, I think it’s a bit sick to compare that to the kind of thing that goes on in Qatar. We can have some direct comparisons. How many died making Our Stadium, the Olympic Stadium, the Emirates and the Etihad? You could probably count the numbers on your fingers and toes. You’d need a lot of fucking toes to count the thousands that were worked to death in the desert heat to build the World Cup stadiums though.

So no, that kind of whatabouterry doesn’t wash with me.

arthurgrimsdell · Jan 10, 2023

the yid said:
I have changed millions to people

Good of you.

ginola99 · Jan 10, 2023

There's always a leak like this when the fans are disgruntled with Levy and ENIC.

As for sports washing - this country is not one to speak, our consumerism leads to injustices around the under developed world (like your iPhone made on the cheap by a Chinese working 60 hours a week and powered by battery with lithium dug up in soul destroying conditions in Bolivia etc ). The UK have a horrible history when it comes to human rights with slavery, imperialism, death penalties (hangings stopped in the 50s or 60s), inventing the current class system, giving birth to the industrial revolution (planet has suffered from that), turning a blind eye for economic reasons (Chinese human rights issues) many cultural divisions, invaded something like 90% of the world's countries (albeit they were a different country or part of another at that time).

I do feel uncomfortable with QSI but how are ENIC saints and how can the UK preach with a clean conscious? Didn't Joe's Lewis have his helicopter blown up on an attempt on his life? Who attempted that and why? A millionaire's world is very questionable (Ricky Gervais's last awards hosting summing it up) but a billionaire's World is a totally different kettle of fish.

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