The Insanity Of The Transfer Window (or what is really going on out there in the real world)

[SlickMongoose]

We issued £40m preference shares? I don't remember hearing about that.

Wish we were still listed, we got a lot more info back then.

 

[Chanticleer81]

OP,
You say ENIC have invested 100's of millions in the club. Do you have any specifics? And by that I mean their money, not the clubs money. You also say they plan to invest a further 400-500 million in the stadium. Is that along the same lines as what FSG are doing at Liverpool?

He is talking bollocks on that issue. Enic have invested £66 million so far since 2001.

 

[whitestreak]

He is talking bollocks on that issue. Enic have invested £66 million so far since 2001.

http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/upl...cuments/Annual_Reports/annual-report-2014.pdf

I am not the one talking bollocks, i refer you to note 19 of the 2014 annual report
Closing shareholder funds ...£183+m furthermore when you add back amortisation and depreciation of C£50m
the number is over £230m + 30M+ of loans the number really is getting up close to £300m

But hey my source doc is the Deloitte audited financial report for 2014
What is yours and please provide a link....if you can

Now whos really talking bollocks?

 

[SlickMongoose]

It's not quite so easy to work out how much cash has been put into the club over the years (less cash taken out in dividends), you'd probably have to go through all the historic annual reports which I can't be bothered to do.

Total shareholder funds includes retained earnings so I don't think you can just use that. But I think the number is probably closer to Whitestreak's estimate than to Chanticleer's - The owners put in £40m just last year (by buying preference shares) to clear off our debt, so saying £66m over the years is way too low. There have been multiple share issues over the years as well, plus you'd include the purchase price which was about £80m - £90m off the top of my head. £300m might be about right.

 

[Harry Barber]

http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/upl...cuments/Annual_Reports/annual-report-2014.pdf

I am not the one talking bollocks, i refer you to note 19 of the 2014 annual report
Closing shareholder funds ...£183+m furthermore when you add back amortisation and depreciation of C£50m
the number is over £230m + 30M+ of loans the number really is getting up close to £300m

But hey my source doc is the Deloitte audited financial report for 2014
What is yours and please provide a link....if you can

Now whos really talking bollocks?

you tell me..[/QUOTE]

He is talking bollocks on that issue. Enic have invested £66 million so far since 2001.

I'm no expert, but I read note 19 which you refer to as:
Opening shareholder funds 78,425 - that's just an accumulation of previous year's profits and possibly what their initial outlay to buy us was.
Profit for the year 65,261 - that was our net profit in the financial year applicable. It's been added to shareholder funds. (ahem)
Preference shares issued 40,000 - I believe that's a sum Lewis put in, in exchange for shares to buy a plot of land or something for the stadium.
Net addition to shareholders funds 105,261 - well, that's just the addition of both the above figures.

So, apart from the 40,000,000 Lewis put in to buy the land and their initial outlay for us, I cannot see any further evidence of investment from ENIC
But as I've said, I'm no expert, so I stand to be corrected.

 

[Chanticleer81]

£66 million figure comes from:

Jan 2004 share rights issue (ENIC contributed about £11 million of the £15 million raised)

November 2009 - £15 million share placement

Then the £40 million in 2014.

Money they paid to buy the club and the £25 million they paid Sugar for his remaining shares in 2007 don't count as investment in the club.That is a purchase price going into sugars pocket. And loans are not investment either -that is why they are shown in liabilities.

If that's a load of bollocks then i hold my hands up.

 

[whitestreak]

you tell me..

I'm no expert, but I read note 19 which you refer to as:
Opening shareholder funds 78,425 - that's just an accumulation of previous year's profits and possibly what their initial outlay to buy us was.
Profit for the year 65,261 - that was our net profit in the financial year applicable. It's been added to shareholder funds. (ahem)
Preference shares issued 40,000 - I believe that's a sum Lewis put in, in exchange for shares to buy a plot of land or something for the stadium.
Net addition to shareholders funds 105,261 - well, that's just the addition of both the above figures.

So, apart from the 40,000,000 Lewis put in to buy the land and their initial outlay for us, I cannot see any further evidence of investment from ENIC
But as I've said, I'm no expert, so I stand to be corrected.[/QUOTE]

Our Net Profit?
Who's money is that there is a clue in the title... Levy and Lewis (the ultimate beneficial Shareholders own this club) it is theirs
Plus the amounts of loans in to the club and add back the amortisation and depreciation, add in a real (not written down) value for the assets,including, goodwill, players, the new freehold land and buildings, and that should get you close to the amount of money they have invested in the club.
In any other business retained profits are also the property of the owners.
In all of this perhaps the most telling point is that, the income from ticket sales is actually so low
The fans only really contribute to about 20% of the groups turnover.
The club would actually have made a profit without a1p from the fans
I am sure you also realise they could have sucked out at least £100m in a dividend

So who's money is it?
and how much I absolutely stand by my figures and suspect that the number is really much closer to £400m
invested in the club

In fact another way of looking at it is how much do you think someone coming into THFC would have to pay to buy it
Markham recently published this list saying Tottenham are worth £710m
How much do you think ENIC would sell for...? Given they are committed to investing another 4-500m in the club?
Again you may have bought your house 15 years ago for £100k and today it is worth £100m
That money is yours and the amount you have invested in it is what it is worth....

 

[nicdic]

I'm not sure I buy the argument that ENIC are building the stadium to make us a more attractive proposition for sale. I don't think their intention is sale at all. They are trying to put us in the best position possible to capitalise on the Premier League's growth across the world, particularly in America (with the NFL deal), and Asia (Son, tour, sponsorship). On top of that the way TV money is going is only up. Why would you sell when you're about to make the money back anyway?

 

[whitestreak]

In fact looking at that List + 500m and the NFL deal with increased tv Money and Spurs are actually becoming a powerhouse in world football...
If we can maintain status quo under ENIC for the next 5 years as we build the stadium and the market does not collapse the Spurs Picture will become incredibly rosy!
I think ENIC are here for a very long time and it is their plan to rival and overtake Man U over the next 10 years!

 

[Lilbaz]

Comparing buying players to buying house isn't the right comparison.

The football club is the house and spending money on players is like doing renovation work. If you leave your house for a number of years without investing it won't reach its true potential. By spending money on "improving" you generally increase the value of your asset.

Our house needs renovations to be done if it is to keep up with the competitive market place. By not fully investing in this logic we are running the risk of falling behind and our house becoming "unsellable".

We are moving into a mansion so can't afford major renovation works at the moment.

 

[Lilbaz]

I think if a good enough offer comes in they will sell. Otherwise they will wait until they believe the market has peaked.

 

[Sevens]

They have already invested £100s of millions of their money in improving it

They haven't injected fresh money into the club other than a couple of loans that the club will have to pay ENIC back, with healthy interest.

Technically you're not wrong as they own Spurs so any self funded investment from Spurs is their money. But let us not try and pretend they have put their hand into their own pocket and subsidised Spurs in any manner. Because they haven't.

 

[Sevens]

http://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/upl...cuments/Annual_Reports/annual-report-2014.pdf

I am not the one talking bollocks, i refer you to note 19 of the 2014 annual report
Closing shareholder funds ...£183+m furthermore when you add back amortisation and depreciation of C£50m
the number is over £230m + 30M+ of loans the number really is getting up close to £300m

But hey my source doc is the Deloitte audited financial report for 2014
What is yours and please provide a link....if you can

Now whos really talking bollocks?

Not an accountant are you?

 

[Sevens]

It's not quite so easy to work out how much cash has been put into the club over the years (less cash taken out in dividends), you'd probably have to go through all the historic annual reports which I can't be bothered to do.

Total shareholder funds includes retained earnings so I don't think you can just use that. But I think the number is probably closer to Whitestreak's estimate than to Chanticleer's - The owners put in £40m just last year (by buying preference shares) to clear off our debt, so saying £66m over the years is way too low. There have been multiple share issues over the years as well, plus you'd include the purchase price which was about £80m - £90m off the top of my head. £300m might be about right.

That's not giving money to a company though. It's an investment. They haven't pumped money into the company with the view of writing it off. They are there to make money from Spurs long term, not fund it as a pet project they are happy to lose money on.

 

[Lilbaz]

Can people just be honest and stop with the bollocks? Just say you want a sugar daddy billionaire to buy the club like chelsea and city. Lewis isn't and never will be one. Sorry.

 

[cockerel downunder]

It's not true to say outside of football employees are free to move to another company . Senior execs on fixed term contracts will often be prevented from joining a competitor if they resign by being out on gardening leave for the remainder of their contract. Hardly complete freedom. A footballer too can wait for the end of their contract and move freely if they wish so it's very similar.

 

[whitestreak]

It's not true to say outside of football employees are free to move to another company . Senior execs on fixed term contracts will often be prevented from joining a competitor if they resign by being out on gardening leave for the remainder of their contract. Hardly complete freedom. A footballer too can wait for the end of their contract and move freely if they wish so it's very similar.

Hardly the same thing, most Senior Execs do not have a registration system that is bought and sold, by their employer and prevents them from working. Most contracts are for a relatively short period and have notice periods that normally run from 3 months to one year. The maximum amount of damages are normally capped at the unexpired portion of the contract.
Along with a duty to mitigate the loss by finding an alternative employer/employee.
Football is pretty unique around the world, due to the extreme levels of restraint of trade.

 

[Chanticleer81]

Whitestreak - you say ENIC are committed to investing another £4-500 million in the stadium project and continued player purchases. This will be on top of your estimated figure of £400 million already invested. So £8-900 million in say 19/20 years by 2020.

Everything I have seen regarding the stadium build has said it will be financed by naming rights, bank finance and the property sales.

Regarding the "hundreds of millions of their money" already invested - do you have a breakdown of how and when this money was injected into the club? Are these loans or money the club will never repay ? I have only ever seen the club secure loans from banks. If they have been putting more in then I would genuinely like to know.

As I posted above my understanding of money that has come directly into THFC from ENIC has been via 3 share issues at a total of £66 million ( £11 million in jan 04, £15 million in nov 09 and £40 million last year). I think the January 04 money helped clear some debt and fund part of the defoe transfer. The other £55 million was directly towards the stadium project.

Now ENIC paid about £22 million to take control of the club in 2001. Another £25 million was paid to sugar in 2007 to buy out the remainder of his shares. So that £47 million may well be an investment from ENICS point of view but it can't be thrown into the category of "They have already invested £100s of millions of their money in improving it".

 

[Spurger King]

I actually think that we are an amazingly well run club!

We're a well run business. We're a poorly run football club if the aim is to be successful.

We just plod along making up the numbers and basically existing. A few Thursday night games against European pub teams in one of the worst tournaments ever constructed, and maybe the occasional cup final every 7 or 8 years (League Cup of course, we no longer do FA Cup finals).

I'm way past caring about the ENIC 'project'. Just hope that when they finish building the stadium they manage to pimp us out to someone actually prepared to spend what it takes to make us genuinely competitive. More than ever, football success is about money. I used to dream about us achieving success without being another Oil Money FC, but that's impossible in the Prem.

 

[Syn_13]

Can people just be honest and stop with the bollocks? Just say you want a sugar daddy billionaire to buy the club like chelsea and city. Lewis isn't and never will be one. Sorry.

Alright, I admit it. I've always wanted a sugar daddy billionaire to buy me and spend loads of money on me. I mean the club. Yes, the club.