easley91
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Ex-Manager watch: Antonio Conte
- Thread starter TheTanguy
- Start date
Strongly agree about the fans. You just have to look at SC and the opinions so repeatedly expressed to know people, at least a significant proportion, supporting the club regardless during difficult times no longer happens.
wrd
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- Aug 22, 2014
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I think this actually shows the fallacy in your logic respectfully, all @RuskyM did was highlight that bringing reputation into things is nothing more than a man trying to protect himself by devaluing our club. Rusky only highlighted our stature as a means to show how easy it is to undermine Conte's point but ultimately the point was that he was willing to disparage us to protect himself and we as a club should not accept that. Ultimately what matters is what your capability is on a pitch and we clearly have more quality amongst our team to overcome AC Milan at home or at the very least put in a significantly better performance than we did. For Conte to hide behind the stature of Milan is woeful because we know we are capable of more.
By your logic of Spurs humbling themselves, if teams did that instead of acknowledging that reputation and stature means nothing, what matters is how you perform, then Bournemouth would have turned up with no belief that they could overcome Liverpool and would have taken their defeat as reputations would deem the result a foregone conclusion. To overcome any odds you have to believe in yourself so I simply can't agree with your position that Spurs and our fans must deem ourselves as less than and humble ourselves, especially when there's such evidence as Liverpool who are accused of being delusional, doing incredible things with their fans delusion time and time again.
chrisd2k
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Is that inclusive of protests at Levy/the board?
-Afri-Coy-
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I never said Spurs should humble themselves, I said we as fans should humble ourselves. Big, big difference.
The reason why I said that was everyone loves to talk shit about Conte and Mourinho and claim that our club is bigger than them, but like I said they’ve collectively won double the amount of trophies between the two of them than our club has in over 100 years.
I’m still waiting for someone to show me some quotes that show definitively that Conte outright disrespected the club, and not something that made the fans FEEL disrespected. Once again, big, big difference.
Players should always have belief in themselves and they should always come out fighting. But they didn’t even bother to show up against Sheffield never mind a “mediocre” Milan side. There could be multiple factors that contribute to this but nothing will ever be an excuse for lack of application.
Trix
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- Jul 29, 2004
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I think there is a massive difference between turning on a manager or player that has been here 12-18 months to the guy who has been overseeing things for over 2 decades. If you are looking for a workaround to what I've said you won't. It isn't now, and never will be acceptable in my eyes to boo one of our own whilst wearing the shirt or stood in our dug out.
And just for clarification I'd rather the anti Levy stuff was prior to, or after the match not during. I think any negativity from the fan base projects onto the players and does nothing but hinder us.
mil1lion
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The issue with Poch was he wanted total control including transfers. You're right about Levy though, its why Mitchell left. They need more control but Paratici has signed a lot of the players with his resources. I think Poch was not flexible enough, Jose and Conte have appeared happier to get more players offered up in comparison and weve made more signings. The key for me is to have a continuous flow of players. Our best success over the years came with proactive directors who got deals done (Arnesen, Baldini and now Paratici). They have a lot of knowledge that Levy doesn't and signed numerous players in their short time here. Only a handful tend to come off so it's key to keep them coming in. Sissoko actually worked out fine to be fair and at least Poch played him. One criticism of Conte is that he would not play him if he didn't ask for him rather than go along with it and give him a chance. The issue with that window was not Sissoko it was the lack of other signings particularly anyone to succeed Dembele and Eriksen. I thought Sissoko went some way to replace the athleticism and strength of Wanyama but we needed more.
wrd
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In terms of history, these two clubs are on totally different levels. Milan won the Serie A title last season, whereas we scraped through by a miracle.
This was the quote given, I think that is devaluing spurs in order to increase the magnitude of his accomplishment of finishing 4th. It's a matter of perception, perhaps disparage isn't the correct word but devaluing spurs I think certainly applies by saying we're on totally different levels, we're not, a shockingly poor performing team only losing 1-0 over 2 legs, one of which we had 10 men. So we're hardly on totally different levels as evidenced by the fine margin despite our performance.
Whilst you may not have said that the club needs to humble yourselves, your sentence to rusky which might have started with "you" but as you then said as a club have this sense of superiority over Conte, that sentence comes across as a club as a whole, maybe you didn't mean it like that but a sense of superiority being incorrect would infer the need to humble. I don't think we need do, I think having high standards should be a demand, I think we certainly are impatient and flippant at times but we should demand high standards on the pitch.
I'm not sure we will find compromise in our viewpoints though because a manager claiming the teams were on two different levels, after a defeat - this is the particularly important part to me which was largely caused by his tactical decision, his team's application which he is responsible for and then to allude once again to some miracle work, does not seem to me a man person taking responsibility and instead, protecting himself. I don't want that kind of leadership, it infuriates me. More so because I know he is capable of great leadership when you contrast to his interview after we lost to Burnley last season, he was critical of himself, he took responsibility, look at the results that followed. That's the leadership I want and I'm at a loss why he doesn't show it.
This was the quote given, I think that is devaluing spurs in order to increase the magnitude of his accomplishment of finishing 4th. It's a matter of perception, perhaps disparage isn't the correct word but devaluing spurs I think certainly applies by saying we're on totally different levels, we're not, a shockingly poor performing team only losing 1-0 over 2 legs, one of which we had 10 men. So we're hardly on totally different levels as evidenced by the fine margin despite our performance.
Whilst you may not have said that the club needs to humble yourselves, your sentence to rusky which might have started with "you" but as you then said as a club have this sense of superiority over Conte, that sentence comes across as a club as a whole, maybe you didn't mean it like that but a sense of superiority being incorrect would infer the need to humble. I don't think we need do, I think having high standards should be a demand, I think we certainly are impatient and flippant at times but we should demand high standards on the pitch.
I'm not sure we will find compromise in our viewpoints though because a manager claiming the teams were on two different levels, after a defeat - this is the particularly important part to me which was largely caused by his tactical decision, his team's application which he is responsible for and then to allude once again to some miracle work, does not seem to me a man person taking responsibility and instead, protecting himself. I don't want that kind of leadership, it infuriates me. More so because I know he is capable of great leadership when you contrast to his interview after we lost to Burnley last season, he was critical of himself, he took responsibility, look at the results that followed. That's the leadership I want and I'm at a loss why he doesn't show it.
chrisd2k
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Nope in my initial response I said we act out and thats wrong. Just intrigued to your answer
-Afri-Coy-
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If you take the match before into context then I agree with you and his comment was ill timed but I would still argue that it’s based in fact and not just a matter of self preservation. It is a miracle that we finished in the top 4 last season, and Milan are the defending Serie A champions. Some fans had a mindset that it was a forgone conclusion that based on their current form we should’ve won that game but in reality it could’ve gone both ways. I think he inferred his responsibility by using the word we instead of saying the players.
I can completely understand why it infuriates some of you guys, I was genuinely just trying to show @RuskyM that there are always two sides to a coin (two perspectives) and that what he said wasn’t directly disrespectful or belittling of our club. They can definitely be interpreted that way, but then it becomes subjective to each fan’s personal perspective/feelings.
The comments towards him afterwards however left nothing to interpretation and were purely disrespectful because so many fans felt that he had disrespected the club. Not saying either of you two were guilty of this but there were plenty fans who are guilty of it. This is why I mentioned being humble and reminding ourselves that he is a successful manager and even if it doesn’t work out with us he will always be one.
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Not quite sure what 'objectively speaking' means here.
I would love to win a Cup, I would love to win the league
but I am not prepared to make winning something
the be all and end all of our efforts.
or the only criteria for judging our success.
Not selling out to 'sport-washing' inhumane regimes.
not sacrificing entertainment and enjoyment.
Play good football, however you define it,
and success, however you define it, will come.
If it doesn't in terms of trophies,
at least we will not have been bored mindless in the meantime,
at least Leeds fans have had their money's worth, match to match.
At the moment in pursuit of trophy success
we have neither trophies nor entertainment
even under so-called elite, successful managers.
'It's the football stupid'.
(Not aimed at you in particular but as a general reply
to those of a different opinion to which of course you are all entitled.
wrd
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Yeah I recently learnt that quote of two ways up the mountain and perceive that as there's a positive/negative way to view things. I certainly agree also though that people's reactions are uncalled for, I think no matter the situation you should try your best to be respectful. If you're going to fall short of that standard then you should at least try and make sure not to be disrespectful when there's a possibility you didn't interpret the desired meaning correctly. I'm glad you was able to take the debate at face value though because often it feels like you're debating with somebody that has conflated you with the behaviour of others as opposed to just arguing the points, so I appreciate that.
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-Afri-Coy-
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I see things in two different spheres -
Objective fact: football is a results based sport, and the best team wins trophies. This cannot be argued whatsoever, it’s the basis for the rules of the game.
Subjective fact: anything else that one would want to put towards their club to be able to call their club successful, for example playing attractive football.
One thing to keep in mind is you can hardly ever argue subjective vs objective facts because objective facts apply to the sport as a whole whereas subjective in this case would only apply to spurs from a spurs fan’s perspective.
mil1lion
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It's felt different to me since the pandemic. Almost like people have forgot how to act in public. The atmosphere at games has been more tense and at times toxic. Maybe its just fans expectations were raised under Poch but its not just us either. We're seeing more pitch invasions in football now, including that idiot who got on the pitch at the end of the NLD for example. People are getting incredibly angry so much so that they're already moaning minutes into a game. The boos at half time have been a bit much too. Then Conte will mention the environment and that will set off more fans not happy that he's being critical of the fans.
chrisd2k
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Football has always been like this for me. I support Harlequins in Rugby and the atmosphere is night and day, and its the same for international matches and tournaments with no segregation, everyone just sits where they are, have a bit of banter and enjoy the day.
In many ways football is quite vile from the ways its run with corrupt governing bodies, hooliganism and respect on and off the pitch. I'm often quite disgusted the way players crowd the referee and shout.
Its a beautiful game so its all a shame really and most fan bases are the same with nobody being better than the other really. That said, I didnt see the Arsenal fans negativity over the last few years affect their team in probably winning the league this year so maybe we are being a bit OTT with criticizing ourselves like we are any different to other teams. I was appalled and ashamed with the way Emerson was treated as you could see he always gave 100% but you cant teach stupid and imo groups of people are just that, 'A Person Is Smart; People Are Dumb'
Yeah but he was probably the right fit for the club.
IMHO Jose and Conte, particularly in their style of football, were never a good fit for our club.
Genuine question. Are things more toxic now than they were in previous years? I haven't been to the stadium this year, but I can remember Spurs fans booing and yelling abuse at our players and managers ever since I went to Spurs as a kid in the 90s. Anyone who has ever been to more than a couple of matches must have heard lots of vile, disgusting stuff directed at our team from the home end. The atmosphere, in general, could turn very hostile and unforgiving if things were not going well. There were always scapegoats and highly unpopular players and coaches who could never do anything right in the eyes of certain contingents of fans.
I think a big difference now is the internet. Before, one might talk about this stuff down the pub with a few mates but not debate this stuff daily with hundreds of other Spurs fans as we do here. There was no Twitter or 24-hour news cycle either. It was much easier to get away from it all in the periods between matches.
Another aspect is anyone can watch virtually every single match. So, everything is scrutinised more. So, if we're playing poorly, even if we are winning, it will stand out a lot more than it did back in the days when fans had to rely on highlights/radio/newspaper reports for matches they couldn't attend.
I think a big difference now is the internet. Before, one might talk about this stuff down the pub with a few mates but not debate this stuff daily with hundreds of other Spurs fans as we do here. There was no Twitter or 24-hour news cycle either. It was much easier to get away from it all in the periods between matches.
Another aspect is anyone can watch virtually every single match. So, everything is scrutinised more. So, if we're playing poorly, even if we are winning, it will stand out a lot more than it did back in the days when fans had to rely on highlights/radio/newspaper reports for matches they couldn't attend.
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mil1lion
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It's felt worse to me but it's been hard to tell. We had Wembley for a few years which felt hollow and then the new stadium closed for a year. The worst I remember at Wembley was the NLD where they dominated but we scraped a draw. That was probably the worst under Poch. I didnt find it this bad under Jose, plenty of grumbles but not the constant boos at half time. This season has been the worst for a long time and the first I've heard Levy out chants start up. Certainly in terms of pretty much every game I've been too (7) this season has felt tense aside from the season opener. The slow starts have been a big factor though.
Martinhotspur
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- May 20, 2013
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I bet he is chuffed he beat Forest
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