Ex-Manager watch: Antonio Conte

Teegart · Nov 7, 2022

The mentality side of our team is a huge factor imo. You can see the players who are completely unphased by anything.

Bentancur, Kane, Kulu, Hojbjerg, Perisic, Romero etc. They make a mistake and they don’t hide, they want the ball back immediately. Things aren’t clicking for them and they get on with it expecting the next pass/dribble/shot to come off as normal.

There’s a few where that is the opposite. Sanchez, Dier, Davies, Sess, Lloris to an extent. One decent mistake and they look extremely nervy right after. Hiding from the ball for a bit, can see it getting in their heads. Always seems to kick in when the matches are more important, ie against big 6.

As has been mentioned by Trix, it’s fine to have a few of these in our squad, but starting multiple, especially in a back line in a big game, there is always a large chance of mistakes. Issue is currently Conte has to trust them as there is no other options.

bubble07 · Nov 7, 2022

Trix said:
I think the point I was making is that surrounding him with capable players able to play out of situations, that give him an outlet when he's under pressure he's fine. Surround him with players that aren't and we are always one slightly misplaced pass away from a chain of hospital passes. That's the fingers start pointing and the arms start waving.

True but that's essentially carrying a player. He has 2 years on his contract so we will know fairly soon what the the intention is with him

Wig · Nov 7, 2022

Trix · Nov 7, 2022

bubble07 said:
True but that's essentially carrying a player. He has 2 years on his contract so we will know fairly soon what the the intention is with him

Nah, every top team will have a couple of Diers in their squad rotating in and out when needed.

DarwinSpur · Nov 7, 2022

Teegart said:
The mentality side of our team is a huge factor imo. You can see the players who are completely unphased by anything.

Bentancur, Kane, Kulu, Hojbjerg, Perisic, Romero etc. They make a mistake and they don’t hide, they want the ball back immediately. Things aren’t clicking for them and they get on with it expecting the next pass/dribble/shot to come off as normal.

There’s a few where that is the opposite. Sanchez, Dier, Davies, Sess, Lloris to an extent. One decent mistake and they look extremely nervy right after. Hiding from the ball for a bit, can see it getting in their heads. Always seems to kick in when the matches are more important, ie against big 6.

As has been mentioned by Trix, it’s fine to have a few of these in our squad, but starting multiple, especially in a back line in a big game, there is always a large chance of mistakes. Issue is currently Conte has to trust them as there is no other options.

Don't think it's fair to say Dier hid after his mistake yesterday. In fact he was a big part of our second half comeback. He did the opposite of hide

PeeEyeEmPee · Nov 7, 2022

-Afri-Coy- said:
What is getting the best out of the squad to you? Results or fancy performances? Because the only team above us that’s a surprise is Newcastle.

Both Arteta and Pep have been moulding their squads for 4+ Fucking years and we’ve barely just celebrated Conte’s 1st with us. In no way is it fair to expect us to be competing with them neck and neck based on time to implement tactics alone.

You need to get your expectations in check, before you start throwing them around like we’re entitled to be doing better than we are.

There are multiple, justifiable reasons why you could say he is doing the best he can so far, and deserves a lot more time.

Just because you’re not impressed with the performances doesn’t take away from the results. Football has always and will always be a results based game.

It's interesting that you've framed your question this way, as it suggests that the two are somehow mutually exclusive. But to answer it anyway, to me it means improved performances leading to better results. You're making a big deal about results, but against teams at or around our level we have almost none. So yes we're 4th, but who have we actually beaten? Southampton (18th), Wolves (19th), Forest (20th), Fulham (9th), Leicester (14th), Brighton (6th), Everton (16th), Bournemouth (17th). Contrast that with losing against Arsenal (1st), Newcastle (3rd), Man U (5th), Liverpool (8th) and drawing against West Ham (15th) and Chelsea (7th). One single point out of 15 against our fellow Top 4 contenders. These "results" aren't nearly as impressive as you're making out, and certainly aren't good enough to excuse what have for the most part been very poor performances. In fact, these are our poorest set of results against the teams around us in a while, so we ARE entitled to be doing better.

Defend Conte all you like - there's a lot that can be used to defend him - but please let's not pretend there isn't a lot of room for improvement with this collection of players. Yes the players need to do better, but so does he.

ralphs bald spot · Nov 7, 2022

Trix said:
Nah, every top team will have a couple of Diers in their squad rotating in and out when needed.

they really don't that is actually the difference between a top side and also runs - not a terrible player but weak as anything he hides as a defender a case in point the first goal yesterday easily avoidable if he does his job but he defends nothing - the worst thing and the biggest indictment is that he isn't the worst we have and despite being absolutely awful for the lost month or so people can make almost a valid argument as to how he should still be in the team

Teegart · Nov 7, 2022

DarwinSpur said:
Don't think it's fair to say Dier hif after his mistake yesterday. In fact he was a big part of our second half comeback. He did the opposite of hide

Not all the list I mentioned hide. Sanchez and Sess hide, Dier not as much I agree. They all do have big mistakes in them imo, which often happen in the bigger profile of games.

carpediem1906 · Nov 7, 2022

wrd said:
Well first of all, I said the results have been okay but let me rephrase. We have been underperforming ALL season, we have been under perform relative to where we were performance wise at the tail end ALL season, we have gone from under performing to downright poor in recent weeks. I personally had accepted that Bissouma and Spence would take time to adapt, that Doherty was coming back from injury, I expected it to take some time but we're 20 games into and Bissouma is just now scratching the surface, Doherty has not been able to get up to speed and Spence has simply not been integrated.

Yes we've had players missing, maybe we should adapt our system then if we don't have 3 forwards and utilise the stability in midfield to take more risk at wing back. Yes we've been playing twice a week, have Arsenal and Man City not been playing twice a week? Did Liverpool not play the same amount of games as us, Did Liverpool not have Jota, Diaz, Matip, Keita missing. I think it's poor form to bring the death of the coach into things who is responsible for our approach to pre-season, I appreciate it takes an emotional toll but we were under performing way before that, that is just throwing something out and seeing what sticks.

Arsenal and City have been drilled to play the same way for YEARS and recruited players to play the same way for years for them to be able to managed this current fixture congestion, and they didn’t have injuries to 3/4 first xi players at once and for extended periods.

Liverpool is BEHIND us in the league AND finished SECOND in their champs league group which resulted in them drawing Real Madrid and therefore in all likelihood being out of champs league (which might be a blessing in disguise for their fight back for top 4 post WC)

PeeEyeEmPee · Nov 7, 2022

danielneeds said:
It’s nuts how people can’t see that our schedule has been insane this stretch of the season.

Whose hasn't? And yeah, please don't just give me a list of teams not in European competition. I'm referring to teams on our level.

talkshowhost86 said:
If someone can just let me know when we have the right squad to be able to judge our manager that would be helpful

Otherwise this thread is presumably pointless

The goalposts will just keep shifting. Next it'll be about injuries to the perfect squad, and then fixtures. At some point, I'm expecting Brexit and the war in Ukraine to be brought up as factors for why it's still not the right time to make a judgement

wrd said:
Nah I'm not having this he doesn't have what he needs spiel again. Heard it last season when people were saying there was no way we had a team to make top4 and it was incorrect then and it's incorrect now. Results wise we're doing alright to be honest, I think we've left ourselves with too much to do in the league to challenge for the title now after the world cup but who knows what condition teams come back in we'll see.

However performance wise I expect so much better by now from Conte and we saw evidence of that today in the 2nd half. Infact we have seen evidence of that in quite a few different mini periods this season. They're games this season where we can't hide behind the idea that we're lacking personnel.

We're asking a player who is not suited to attack to be our RWB in games where we have a 3 man midfield. That is a choice, he has other options, he has Doherty who would probably be playing at a more consistently high level if he was able to develop some match rhythm, we have Spence who could have elevated his game if given the opportunity to play at the level he needs to get to. You develop in life by being put out of your comfort zone and getting comfortable, doesn't matter if it's football or anything else.

We have seen that we have a player in Gill who has quality, who has offered more in games going forward than others have, he keeps being overlooked. Are people really believing today that we'd have been worse off if Gill was next to Kane in the 10 and Perisic got to play at wing back? Are people really believing that we need Emerson to play RWB currently because the other options can't be trusted, Is our defence being better protected from having Emerson because last time I checked in the league we've gone 2-0 down 4 times in a row. 5 games in a row we've conceded the first goal.

I've been behind Conte 100% but I feel like some of you want it both ways, you can't claim that Conte is the best manager we can hope for and then hold him to a lesser standard than the other managers. It's not been good enough in recent weeks. He's been backed more than any other manager in a ridiculously short period of time. He's been given in the space of 6 months; Bentancur, Kulusevki, Richarlison, Bissouma, Perisic and Spence with Lenglet on Loan.

The idea that this team isn't good enough is an absolute joke to me. When it was spoke about last season about replacing Davies/Dier, I remember being chastised for daring to suggest they need upgrading because of how they were performing, now they're not good enough to overcome Newcastle at home to perform better than we have been vs teams we have way more resources than, I can understand losing to Arsenal, United but not in the manner of which it happened.

Conte is a brilliant manager, why is he not been held to that standard, he is the manager who supposedly holds his players to the highest of standards but with him, with the backing he's received, it's still that he needs more? We're not talking about going toe to toe playing expansive football playing City off the pitch here, we're talking performances across a significant amount of games vs teams of varying levels of quality. he's proven he can get better performances out of this team, we saw it last season but now people are gonna roll out the, he hasn't got the players he needs, Nah that is just making excuses, he can get more out of this team and if you don't think he can then you clearly don't rate him as highly as you think you do.

Thank you for articulating this better than I ever could

Harrier · Nov 7, 2022

I feel quite relaxed about Conte and the rebuild process ‘if’ he gets the backing.

The second half demonstrated quite well that we can compete, but that we lack a few really top calibre players. There are definite parallels to Klopp at Pool before he brought in Allison and VVD.

Dier could be used as rotation, but IMHO he needs upgrading for first choice.

We need patience.

carpediem1906 · Nov 7, 2022

crokey said:
Pep first season: 6th
Klopp first season: 6th
Arteta first season: 8th
Conte first season: 4th

How about their 2nd seasons?

Bluto Blutarsky · Nov 7, 2022

PeeEyeEmPee said:
Whose hasn't? And yeah, please don't just give me a list of teams not in European competition. I'm referring to teams on our level.

We are ahead of both Chelsea and Liverpool. Only Man City has faced a “comparable” schedule - and even they got a break with their mid week match with Arsenal postponed.

Arsenal and United both had the luxury of being able to rotate in Europa, and even then only Arsenal are ahead of us.

Japhet · Nov 7, 2022

I can't help wondering if Conte is over doing the coaching. We all know about his 'system' which has to be deeply ingrained before players even get a chance, so presumably this system is how we set out at kick off. It seems that we have a poor first half and then in the second half get after the opposition and play more spontaneously. Are players frightened of doing something wrong or going 'off script' which leads to them being overly cautious? It's pretty clear that when the shackles come off we can play some progressive and entertaining football and actually win matches.

PeeEyeEmPee · Nov 7, 2022

double0 said:
The same players that weren't good under Pochittinho Santos Mourinho people are expecting miracles under Conte. Poch performed miracles to a point, the board although building a world class stadium failed to step in to assist overhauling the squad.

I don't think it'll be wise of us to go down the road of sacking managers ie like Chelsea Wolves Watford. In my view we have a world class stadium, world class patient fans, a world class manger who has the cv. The squad just isn't up to scratch, even though Conte managed to qualify us to the CL and negotiate us to the knock out stages of this year's CL it doesn't hide the fact we need further investment

This argument drives me mad. Just this calendar year alone, we've brought in SIX starting-quality players (Bentancur, Kulusevski, Perisic, Bissouma, Richarlison and Lenglet) that everyone agreed improved the squad. Add those to Romero, and then remove the dross such as Lamela, Alli, Sissoko, Reguillon, Winks, Lo Celso etc and it's a VERY different squad to that of previous years. Yes, some still remain, but what other team out there has changed an entire squad in that time?

dudu · Nov 7, 2022

I'm honestly pretty chilled about where we are at the moment. If Conte remains backed by the club, which he has been so far, then we are in for a great ride.

I keep harping back to this but I honestly feel like Klopps start at Liverpool is the bar that we should be concerned about matching. He didn't finish top 4 for a few years.

Either people want to see us build a team that can challenge or they want to shit the bed every time we get to a tough part of the process and complain the whole time.

PeeEyeEmPee · Nov 7, 2022

Bluto Blutarsky said:
We are ahead of both Chelsea and Liverpool. Only Man City has faced a “comparable” schedule - and even they got a break with their mid week match with Arsenal postponed.

Arsenal and United both had the luxury of being able to rotate in Europa, and even then only Arsenal are ahead of us.

We're now in hair-splitting territory. Due to the condensed schedule, we've all played the same number of games in the same amount of time, give or take the odd cancellation. There has also been nothing stopping us from either rotating or managing our squad better in the easier games, be they in the league or the CL.

Arsenal have beaten us, Chelsea and Liverpool. Man U have beaten Liverpool, us and Arsenal. Liverpool have beaten us and City. Chelsea are the only ones objectively worse than we've been in this regard.

JCRD · Nov 7, 2022

Teegart said:
The mentality side of our team is a huge factor imo. You can see the players who are completely unphased by anything.

Bentancur, Kane, Kulu, Hojbjerg, Perisic, Romero etc. They make a mistake and they don’t hide, they want the ball back immediately. Things aren’t clicking for them and they get on with it expecting the next pass/dribble/shot to come off as normal.

There’s a few where that is the opposite. Sanchez, Dier, Davies, Sess, Lloris to an extent. One decent mistake and they look extremely nervy right after. Hiding from the ball for a bit, can see it getting in their heads. Always seems to kick in when the matches are more important, ie against big 6.

As has been mentioned by Trix, it’s fine to have a few of these in our squad, but starting multiple, especially in a back line in a big game, there is always a large chance of mistakes. Issue is currently Conte has to trust them as there is no other options.

Im trying not to post to suit my agenda as I appreciate it can come across like that but our players whilst can look nervy - are we saying theyre better when there is to lose? i.e. when we are losing already because they play a lot better when a) we are behind ad b) in the second halves.

So surely to address the issue is to play from the start the way we play in the second half? I mean if something is not working but something else is working - do you not play in that way? Our players are more comfortable playing on the half way line than in their 18 yard box.

PCozzie · Nov 7, 2022

dudu said:
I'm honestly pretty chilled about where we are at the moment. If Conte remains backed by the club, which he has been so far, then we are in for a great ride.

I keep harping back to this but I honestly feel like Klopps start at Liverpool is the bar that we should be concerned about matching. He didn't finish top 4 for a few years.

Either people want to see us build a team that can challenge or they want to shit the bed every time we get to a tough part of the process and complain the whole time.

Feel the same. I know we want to end this trophy drought but I also want us to be regular competitiors at the top of the league for the next 20 years. We cant keep going through cycles of signing players that aren't up to it that we cant then shift, and sacking managers because they havent won a cup within 12 months (Nuno excepted, that was never going to end in silverware).

Another 1 or 2 players of Kulusevski/Bentancur standard in January and we are well placed to have a really good squad by the end of summer 23. After that we can go for the one world class player in the positions we need, as Liverpool did with Van Dyke and Allison that totally transformed them from Top 4 challengers to title winners.

Trix · Nov 7, 2022

PeeEyeEmPee said:
Whose hasn't? And yeah, please don't just give me a list of teams not in European competition. I'm referring to teams on our level.

The goalposts will just keep shifting. Next it'll be about injuries to the perfect squad, and then fixtures. At some point, I'm expecting Brexit and the war in Ukraine to be brought up as factors for why it's still not the right time to make a judgement

Thank you for articulating this better than I ever could

So when you say teams on "our Level" what do you mean? Financially? or historical success perhaps? what are you judging our level to be, and what other clubs do you consider to be our level and why?

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