The Daily ITK Discussion Thread 30th June

Archibald&Crooks said:

The trick is as follows:

Very positive ITK = Meh, pinch of salt
Very negative ITK = Meh, pinch of salt

Then just let is all wash over you and see how it pans out. Which is usually with massive disappointment and a handful of posters wanting to tar and feather our favourite bald headed oompah-loompah

If you allow it to get to you, it isn't the ITK's doing that, you're doing it to yourself

EDIT: Although I must admit I've done it to myself quite often View attachment 39194

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You do it to yourself 24/7 from what I've heard.

knowlespurs said:

yep to be fair it has only been Herc who has said it would be massively different and business done a lot sooner
Trix has said pretty much same as last windows with business being done late on with maybe a little more investment this time
Looks like Herc source has now changed his tune slightly to temper expectations

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Well I haven't seen that much from Trix as I'm going on what's in the RO forum. I miss a lot in these threads as they often get filled with spam. There's not much from Trix in the RO apart from downplaying De Ligt/Bale. It's also not just Hercules saying we will spend.

Hertyid has said: "Serious title challenge and a trophy. Anything less is unacceptable at this stage. Poch told Levy that. Levy agreed. Hence the financial commitment from DL and Poch signing a new contract. No more transition. Time to take the final step."

Ali Z has said: "Hate saying this as we have been led down this path before but financially we are playing a different game, we will spend net substantially"

Grey Fox has said: "It's time for Levy and Lewis to shit (Not a spelling mistake) or twist, been told similar to Hercules, contracts first then signings. Lists of "Not wanted " and wanted already given"

knowlespurs said:

yep to be fair it has only been Herc who has said it would be massively different and business done a lot sooner
Trix has said pretty much same as last windows with business being done late on with maybe a little more investment this time
Looks like Herc source has now changed his tune slightly to temper expectations

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I have to again clarify the early business. It was expected to because, it FFC got promoted, and we were leas to believe we could do early deal on Martial, with him being down to HW prior to WC. We were hoping to conclude on a rising championship player (now we know who that is),

Obviously the reasons are clear why confidence was high on early deals. No going back.......but you see things more balanced now. I already addressed this.

tiger666 said:

We've been told we have the money. Update 11 states:

"We WILL exceed 150m spend, which relies not on sales, and a good amount of sales monies will be added. We want 3 priority signings in early, possibly four. Aside from manchester clubs, we are in the same market as the other top 4 clubs."

I know, pinch of salt etc but there's been a few updates saying this is the season we have the money to push on. Update 34:

Finances: "First of many. New stadium + CL football for 3rd year = hugely increased income streams = higher wages. Just wait till we bag the naming rights deal..."

Ambitions: "Serious title challenge and a trophy. Anything less is unacceptable at this stage. Poch told Levy that. Levy agreed. Hence the financial commitment from DL and Poch signing a new contract. No more transition. Time to take the final step."

5 weeks to go anyway.

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In which case, we WILL break FFP and incur a 2 year European ban. Masterstroke.

I never understood that comment but I expect it’s a misunderstanding on my part, as it would be so absurd otherwise.

There is a pattern that becomes very distinct when you’ve seen it repeated over fifteen or twenty transfer windows regarding info and eventuality and you just have to accept it and enjoy what is essentially a jalopy rumbling over a landscape of beanstalks and giant toadstools, while everyone clutches their blunderbusses and pith helmets, and scours the horizon for snarks. The moment I started translating ‘will definitely’ to ‘will absolutely not‘ history slipped into phase.

Hercules said:

I have to again clarify the early business. It was expected to becAess, it FFC got promoted, and we were leas to believe we could do early deal on Martial, with him bring down HW prior to WC. We were hoping to conclude on a rising championship player (now we know who that is),

Obviously the reasons are clear why confidence was high on early deals. No going back inwirds, but you see things more balanced now. I already addressed this.

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Hate using this term but if that was all confidently expected bar Sess then I’m guessing ‘someone moved the goal posts’.
Also a bit silly of us to be counting on Sess in the hope that Fulham wouldn’t be promoted....naive on our part.

Does anyone else now highlight each and every one of @Archibald&Crooks 's posts in here, just in case ... ?

Archibald&Crooks said:

The trick is as follows:

Very positive ITK = Meh, pinch of salt
Very negative ITK = Meh, pinch of salt

Then just let is all wash over you and see how it pans out. Which is usually with massive disappointment and a handful of posters wanting to tar and feather our favourite bald headed oompah-loompah

If you allow it to get to you, it isn't the ITK's doing that, you're doing it to yourself

EDIT: Although I must admit I've done it to myself quite often View attachment 39194

Click to expand...

Unless it's about Bale and then it's wohoo COB for the win

Roynie said:

Most of us are like spoilt kids: " I want my new toy and I want it NOW!".

The thing is that we have a new stadium very near completion, we are looking for Stadium Sponsors (may have already signed contracts, but I really don't know!) and will, presumably, have a big opening ceremony. What better way to build up the publicity for the new sponsors than to announce, a day or two beforehand, that we will unveil a brand new signing or two at that ceremony. If we can get a top, top signing even better. IMHO it's all about maximum publicity for the club and the sponsors and I don't think any new signings will be announced before the opening ceremony, so we need to chill, just a bit!

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but the window will be closed by the time we have the opening ceremony

fletch82 said:

Some of you chaps/chapesses are bleeding loopy loo
How many times have we been in for a player but lost out to a so called bigger club ?
From rivaldo to aguero martial a cpl years back.
We were the smaller club bidding on a player that bigger clubs wanted and guess what yep you guessed it they signed for the bigger club on offer (go figure )
So if west ham are in for a player that we are or Newcastle, Fulham ,Cardiff ,Everton that does not automatically make said player shit or this year's buzz word "meh"
What it does mean is that lots of different teams scouts have seen a promising talent can they all be wrong ?

Half of you are the same people whining that we didn't sign them before they became 50 million pound players and then when we do try to take a punt first we lack ambition which out it's not fair yada yada yada noooooo.

If we are after a player like plea (never heard of him by the way) does that mean we can't sign other players ?

Let's be honest our club is damn tight lipped now about everything and only the supreme leader levy and maybe poch know everything that's going on.
I personally doubt we will sell key players and replace them with Dave from Skipton town fc coz he is cheap.
It's the world cup it's high impossible to sign players taking part until they are out so let's be patient wait a bit and if levy let's people down realistically not didn't sign bale martial kovacic pele and aguero then we can lynch the little sod instead of having a coronary over something that hasn't happened yet

Rant over sorry a&c my bad

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Moaning about moaners of which there are few. The irony.

Indisguise said:

Moaning about moaners of which there are few. The irony.

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Do you know what your bang on I'll remove it just got a bug up my arse

Archibald&Crooks said:

It's a BSoDL standard. It sits alongside the grass isn't always greener and be careful what you wish for, usually when pater is being defended.

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And just as tedious ‘same old Levy’ and ‘(sarcastically) lessons learned’. Come on A&C be balanced.

Maybe some of us are just frustrated with peoples inabilbty grasp how hard it is to sign players at the levels of our first team’s ability when we don’t have the type of backing available that any of the other big 6 have. Players signing for us instead of them have to buy into a multitude of facets that are entirely unrelated to remuneration, and this is far less of an obstacle when that player has unfulfilled potential because individual and collective development is our biggest selling point. The proof? The dozen odd players who are now top class, who weren’t before they started playing for Pochettino.

fletch82 said:

Some of you chaps/chapesses are bleeding loopy loo
How many times have we been in for a player but lost out to a so called bigger club ?
From rivaldo to aguero martial a cpl years back.
We were the smaller club bidding on a player that bigger clubs wanted and guess what yep you guessed it they signed for the bigger club on offer (go figure )
So if west ham are in for a player that we are or Newcastle, Fulham ,Cardiff ,Everton that does not automatically make said player shit or this year's buzz word "meh"
What it does mean is that lots of different teams scouts have seen a promising talent can they all be wrong ?

Half of you are the same people whining that we didn't sign them before they became 50 million pound players and then when we do try to take a punt first we lack ambition which out it's not fair yada yada yada noooooo.

If we are after a player like plea (never heard of him by the way) does that mean we can't sign other players ?

Let's be honest our club is damn tight lipped now about everything and only the supreme leader levy and maybe poch know everything that's going on.
I personally doubt we will sell key players and replace them with Dave from Skipton town fc coz he is cheap.
It's the world cup it's high impossible to sign players taking part until they are out so let's be patient wait a bit and if levy let's people down realistically not didn't sign bale martial kovacic pele and aguero then we can lynch the little sod instead of having a coronary over something that hasn't happened yet

Rant over sorry a&c my bad

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Take a bow.

Hercules said:

I have to again clarify the early business. It was expected to becAess, it FFC got promoted, and we were leas to believe we could do early deal on Martial, with him bring down HW prior to WC. We were hoping to conclude on a rising championship player (now we know who that is),

Obviously the reasons are clear why confidence was high on early deals. No going back inwirds, but you see things more balanced now. I already addressed this.

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Cheers Herc. I think your ITK on Plea has garnered a fair few overreactions, and my post which was heavily snark filled, did not help that. Plea is not a bad player, but his injury history throws more red flags than discarded Spain kits which makes me wonder why we are eying him at all. But that is a question we have beaten to death in his thread. And like you said there is no guarantee we are actually going to back that interest up and pursue.

The early business we have not done is a tad sad, but I have to tell myself even god tier clubs like City have struggled to do their business this window.

BringBack_leGin said:

And just as tedious ‘same old Levy’ and ‘(sarcastically) lessons learned’. Come on A&C be balanced.

Maybe some of us are just frustrated with peoples inabilbty grasp how hard it is to sign players at the levels of our first team’s ability when we don’t have the type of backing available that any of the other big 6 have. Players signing for us instead of them have to buy into a multitude of facets that are entirely unrelated to remuneration, and this is far less of an obstacle when that player has unfulfilled potential because individual and collective development is our biggest selling point. The proof? The dozen odd players who are now top class, who weren’t before they started playing for Pochettino.



Take a bow.

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No one is denying how difficult it is to sign players of the standard we require, what people are getting anxious about is the fact we’ve been led to believe we were signing these players & not just trying.

johnbowel said:

In which case, we WILL break FFP and incur a 2 year European ban. Masterstroke.

I never understood that comment but I expect it’s a misunderstanding on my part, as it would be so absurd otherwise.

There is a pattern that becomes very distinct when you’ve seen it repeated over fifteen or twenty transfer windows regarding info and eventuality and you just have to accept it and enjoy what is essentially a jalopy rumbling over a landscape of beanstalks and giant toadstools, while everyone clutches their blunderbusses and pith helmets, and scours the horizon for snarks. The moment I started translating ‘will definitely’ to ‘will absolutely not‘ history slipped into phase.

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I pointed this out at the time - there's no way you can say with certainty that we will definitely sign x or definitely spend x until those things are concluded, signed and sealed. There are just far too many other factors that can come into play - injuries, agents, other clubs' interest, price changes, change of heart from players, change of heart from players' partners. I pointed out that it sounded like overpromising and getting carried away a tad from Hercules and I was practically burnt at the stake for being a non-believer. Weird shit.

Hercules said:

I have to again clarify the early business. It was expected to becAess, it FFC got promoted, and we were leas to believe we could do early deal on Martial, with him bring down HW prior to WC. We were hoping to conclude on a rising championship player (now we know who that is),

Obviously the reasons are clear why confidence was high on early deals. No going back inwirds, but you see things more balanced now. I already addressed this.

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Thanks for clarifying

BringBack_leGin said:

And just as tedious ‘same old Levy’ and ‘(sarcastically) lessons learned’. Come on A&C be balanced.

Maybe some of us are just frustrated with peoples inabilbty grasp how hard it is to sign players at the levels of our first team’s ability when we don’t have the type of backing available that any of the other big 6 have. Players signing for us instead of them have to buy into a multitude of facets that are entirely unrelated to remuneration, and this is far less of an obstacle when that player has unfulfilled potential because individual and collective development is our biggest selling point. The proof? The dozen odd players who are now top class, who weren’t before they started playing for Pochettino.



Take a bow.

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This argument hangs on the belief that the players around whom the frustration focuses, specifically, Plea, Gomes, Grealish have the potential to reach the level of the targets that are harder to acquire. I think that’s a difficult position to take, given their relative age and ability, and the reaction revolves around this, as representative of the best efforts of our scouting dept and the ability of our manager etc to judge players. I LOVE Poch but I don’t think he’s a great judge of a player’s ability (besides the importance he places on personality which is fantastic imo). I think alongside risk aversion, and intransigence it’s his major weakness. Many great managers have been similarly hit and miss in this respect.

There’s really no need to frame people whose feelings differ to yours in such a condescending way. It’s just as irrational as the reasoning you’re inferring in them, and it would be very easy for someone to make a similar comment about the reasons for your position.

Lesson to be learned as ever with us is that you should never believe it until the signings are holding up the shirt. I did think there was a chance it would be different this time though with the new stadium along with Poch and Kane signing early. Window is of course not over yet but a mountain of work to do with just over a month to go. No players cleared out, only a couple of contracts done, and no new signings close yet. It's not looking fantastic at this stage but things can change quickly I suppose.

BringBack_leGin said:

Come on A&C be balanced.

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Last time I checked, A&C did not have to abide by the BBC's phony "fair and balanced" editorial line.

Which is one of the joys of SC.

BringBack_leGin said:

Maybe some of us are just frustrated with peoples inabilbty grasp how hard it is to sign players at the levels of our first team’s ability when we don’t have the type of backing available that any of the other big 6 have. Players signing for us instead of them have to buy into a multitude of facets that are entirely unrelated to remuneration, and this is far less of an obstacle when that player has unfulfilled potential because individual and collective development is our biggest selling point. The proof? The dozen odd players who are now top class, who weren’t before they started playing for Pochettino.
.

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Mate we just doubled Harry Kane's £100k basic salary, and Poch's £4m a year pay. These are very competitive amounts that seemed impossible before. More big raises likely to follow too.


It's not about what was acceptable or achievable before, it's about this window. ITK has said we are able to operate on a higher level going forward, similar to the likes of Arsenal and Liverpool. Unluckily for the club Utd are being difficult on Martial when we have seemingly won him over. The issue is if we have players of that quality and profile now willing to join, why are we seemingly reverting back to punts from Ligue 1 with 5 weeks to go? Will that stack up with the assurances given to Poch and our top players in terms of ambition? Fair and reasonable questions to be asked IMHO.

SpartanSpur said:

Oh how I hate that statement. Something would have to go drastically wrong for us to 'do a Leeds', it really doesn't apply to us. We've been told there's money to spend, the huge jump in turnover also suggests so.

If we had to cut our cloth due to the new stadium then the club should be up front about it, rather than saying the opposite (doesn't affect transfer business).

It's painfully obvious that now is the time to twist rather than stick. Another year or two of being nearly men happy to fight for 4th and we will have plenty of spare cash to spunk on prospects like Plea and Grealish when Kane, Eriksen, Dele leave. Let alone the future of Poch, the glue that holds it all together.

I like to consider myself one of the more level-headed fans that give Levy and ENIC a lot of credit. I put faith in Poch's coaching and our squad more than the transfer market, but I can't defend us going into the new season competing with West Ham, Fulham and Leicester for new signings while the rest of the top six make strong signings, especially after we sell two key players (Dembele and Toby).

Now the hope is that this is all an overreaction on things seeming a bit Deja Vu with the limited info we have right now (during the World Cup lull). It's a case of wait and see, but can't blame people for expecting the same old, same old.

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Your first statement shows a lack of understanding of finance. We could not afford to buy and play the wages of, for example, Mbappe and Neymar, and if we tried we could quite easily get ourselves into the same mess as Leeds United did, which is why FFP rules are a factor. But it's always "Oh I don't mean that, just spend a whole lot more than we do now, because we can afford it." If we could afford it, we would spend it, though wisely, because Levy is nothing if not a very good businessman, and he will see the benefits far more than the average fan.
The club has indeed said that the cost of the stadium will not affect transfer business, but this is in the context of the transfer business the club has been transacting in the last 30 years or so. It is not in the context of what you would like to spend.
It is not painfully obvious to me that the club now needs to twist rather than stick, presumably meaning p*ss a load of money up the wall on big-name players, but if the club feels it can finance a world-class "finished article" player or two, so be it.
Over the last few years or so, the club has not been fighting for fourth, it has finished third, second and third in consecutive seasons, with a young and improving squad. If you fight for fourth you don't finish higher.
We have not yet sold Dembele or Toby.
I don't care who we compete with in the transfer market. All that matters is that the squad steadily improves and that it continues to be increasingly competitive.
The reason people think it's the same old same old, is because that's what it is. It is the strategy that has been in place for some years, and by dint of the club's massive improvement in all areas over the last decade, it has, to my mind succeeded brillantly, so far.
Pochettino is on record after signing his new deal, that we cannot compete with those clubs with massive amounts of funds, so we have to be, in his words, "creative", "crazy", and to "take risks". Those who want to spend loads of money conveniently ignore Pochettino's acceptance that we can't do that, and his intention to be "creative" instead, and concentrate on misinterpreting his "crazy" and "taking risks" to mean what they would prefer it to mean, spend a load of money, when it is far more likely to mean allowing some crowd favourites to leave, to finance younger replacements with more potential in his view.
Now if we were suddenly to get a massive equity investment to clear the debt financing we have in place, that could well be a game changer. I don't think a naming rights deal would be, though it would clearly make the debt clearance a lot easier over the next few years, or decade.
But until there is a game changer, the current strategy is likely to remain in place, which means plenty of jam today, and the hope of caviar tomorrow. And the "I want it now" brigade are likely to be disappointed. But when are they not?