What would you/Ramos do?

[van_Pommel]

This is not another 'who would you sell/buy' thread.

Lets assume for a moment that Berba's gone. There's been alot of talk of Ramos' system at Sevilla, with 2 holding midfielders and very attacking pacey wingers. To my knowledge no other team plays this way in the EPL at the moment (Blackburn play similarly but their wingers are not particularly pacey, I think Derby play 442 as well but look where they are).

A 442 is alot harder to make work these days. Very few other teams use it, preferring to pack the midfield and play with a big strong striker to play into. For a flat 4 midfield dominate a 5 man midfield with a holding player is a big ask. Portsmouth have used the 5 man midfield really well this season, especially since bringing in Diarra, who is an expert at the holding role.

We all know our midfield is not up to scratch, but is this purely down to a lack of quality in that area, or is it also down to flaws in the system we play. Personally I'm an old romantic and love the 442, and I would love for us to continue with it, but I'd sacrifice it if it meant us winning more.

So do you think the 442's dead? Do we need to change with the times and adapt the way we play? What new system could we adopt? If so what type of players should we be looking to get in to make a new system work?

What would you do, but also, what do you think Ramos will do?

 

[Rabbi_Krustofski]

I'm sure Ramos will bring in players most of use won't have heard of before. The premiership names thrown around: Downing, Bentley ...wont be on the list, I bet.

 

[SpurSince57]

Justify his stupendous salary?

 

[P-L-P]

Justify his stupendous salary?

1st Silverwear in 9 years.

Its done already.

If you want the best you have to pay the best wages.

 

[onthetwo]

I would try and solve the following problem :-

"Spurs have dropped 31 points in games where they have taken the lead, far more than any Premier League Club."

The obvious solution it seems to me is to sure up the spine of the team so we need new GK, CB and DM. I like the idea of two pacy wingers but how many of the Top-4 play that way? Answer - none.

Get them fit as flees pre-season and i think we will have a better season but its probably too soon to think Top-4.

 

[van_Pommel]

So do we stick with 442 or change the system?

Anybody have any opinions on this?

 

[P-L-P]

So do we stick with 442 or change the system?

Anybody have any opinions on this?

I would like to think Ramos could get them to change the system themselves when he makes a sub and know what is expected of them.

 

[van_Pommel]

I cant see Ramos letting the players decide what system they play somehow, that is a large part of his job after all.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

This is not another 'who would you sell/buy' thread.

Lets assume for a moment that Berba's gone. There's been alot of talk of Ramos' system at Sevilla, with 2 holding midfielders and very attacking pacey wingers. To my knowledge no other team plays this way in the EPL at the moment (Blackburn play similarly but their wingers are not particularly pacey, I think Derby play 442 as well but look where they are).

A 442 is alot harder to make work these days. Very few other teams use it, preferring to pack the midfield and play with a big strong striker to play into. For a flat 4 midfield dominate a 5 man midfield with a holding player is a big ask. Portsmouth have used the 5 man midfield really well this season, especially since bringing in Diarra, who is an expert at the holding role.

We all know our midfield is not up to scratch, but is this purely down to a lack of quality in that area, or is it also down to flaws in the system we play. Personally I'm an old romantic and love the 442, and I would love for us to continue with it, but I'd sacrifice it if it meant us winning more.

So do you think the 442's dead? Do we need to change with the times and adapt the way we play? What new system could we adopt? If so what type of players should we be looking to get in to make a new system work?

What would you do, but also, what do you think Ramos will do?

I started an identical thread to this a couple of weeks ago:

http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=28582

In which I said:

I've been thinking about this for a while. It seems we are one of the last teams to play a proper 442 in the EPL. Arsenal, ManU, Chelsea, Everton, Portsmouth, ManC, Villa etc. Not to mention most of those below us. The only exceptions I've seen recently are Reading (at our place) and Blackburn. Even West Ham don't usually.

I always hated 451 and what it stood for. It doesn't always have to be a negative formation, as Arse & ManU prove (and some of Europes finest). And under Jol I found myslef suggesting it as a way to accomodate the deficiencies of Hudd, Jenas, Zokora whilst playing to their attacking strengths and with Malbranque, Bale, Lennon etc we had the flair to make it an attacking formation. Especially away from home where we were a soft touch. But when deployed in the Bolton way it kills football, it is anti-football. It's about function at it's ugliest. And if we were ever to adopt this I would be very fuckied off.

Thankfully Ramos has managed to negate the need for 451 of any kind so far. And even if he did deploy it I'm positive it would be the Arse, manU variety not the Bolton variety.

In my heart of hearts though I would love us to find a way to continue to play 442 successfuly (I know it needs not just two fantastic CM's but two fantastic everything to make it really successfull FB's, CB's, Strikers, Wingers) and I think we are close. This is what I love about 442. Done properly it is about beautiful mathamatics. About simplicity and interchangeable partnerships. It is not about safety first or stopping them. It is about the shapes and paterns you make.
It is the ultimate efficient footballing design concept.
To Dare is To Do

I was thinking about this just yesterday watching ManU v Arse. Neither of them play 442 or have midfield generals but they both have a wonderful plethura of creative types that interact and are fluid. I posted at the start of the season and at various times this year that it is this lack of midfield creativity that is the real barrier between us and the top 4.
But if we bought Modric (which I would love)for example, how would we play him (a question I couldn't answer very well when Yanno asked). The answer is probably that we would have to play in a similar way to arsenal or ManU. Which I could definatley live with I think.

 

[van_Pommel]

I started an identical thread to this a couple of weeks ago:

http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=28582

In which I said:

I've been thinking about this for a while. It seems we are one of the last teams to play a proper 442 in the EPL. Arsenal, ManU, Chelsea, Everton, Portsmouth, ManC, Villa etc. Not to mention most of those below us. The only exceptions I've seen recently are Reading (at our place) and Blackburn. Even West Ham don't usually.

I always hated 451 and what it stood for. It doesn't always have to be a negative formation, as Arse & ManU prove (and some of Europes finest). And under Jol I found myslef suggesting it as a way to accomodate the deficiencies of Hudd, Jenas, Zokora whilst playing to their attacking strengths and with Malbranque, Bale, Lennon etc we had the flair to make it an attacking formation. Especially away from home where we were a soft touch. But when deployed in the Bolton way it kills football, it is anti-football. It's about function at it's ugliest. And if we were ever to adopt this I would be very fuckied off.

Thankfully Ramos has managed to negate the need for 451 of any kind so far. And even if he did deploy it I'm positive it would be the Arse, manU variety not the Bolton variety.

In my heart of hearts though I would love us to find a way to continue to play 442 successfuly (I know it needs not just two fantastic CM's but two fantastic everything to make it really successfull FB's, CB's, Strikers, Wingers) and I think we are close. This is what I love about 442. Done properly it is about beautiful mathamatics. About simplicity and interchangeable partnerships. It is not about safety first or stopping them. It is about the shapes and paterns you make.
It is the ultimate efficient footballing design concept.
To Dare is To Do

I was thinking about this just yesterday watching ManU v Arse. Neither of them play 442 or have midfield generals but they both have a wonderful plethura of creative types that interact and are fluid. I posted at the start of the season and at various times this year that it is this lack of midfield creativity that is the real barrier between us and the top 4.
But if we bought Modric (which I would love)for example, how would we play him (a question I couldn't answer very well when Yanno asked). The answer is probably that we would have to play in a similar way to arsenal or ManU. Which I could definatley live with I think.

Sorry about that fella. I thought I remembered someone talking about this but I couldn't find the thread. Mods feel free to merge if you feel is necessary.

I think if Berba goes then we are bound to buy a creative type to compensate. I'm not sure where they would play though, either behind a sole striker or on the wing. If we where to go 451 then this would leave Keane out, unless we played him as an attacking winger. How would the fans take it if we changed our system and there was no place for Keano?

 

[fazza]

5-Hutton right wing back, Bale Left wing back, Keane just behind front two of Bent and (insert Berby replacement). 3 centre backs, currently, Woody, King and Daws. As for the two centrol midfielders, two new signings, Poulsen and some other hard nut to boss the middle of the park.

Players not mentioned will be sold ie Lennon and Jenas, unless Jenas can play a hard tackling role in the middle.

New keeper also.

 

[eddiebailey]

Good initial post.

Jol, always said 4-4-2 was too rigid, and wanted a more fluid formation, unfortunately he never really had the players to pull it off, though when it worked we were a handful for anyone. In 2005-6 with Davids he attempted to have the best of both the 4-4-2 and 4-3-3 worlds with a lop-sided team formation, that allowed us to pack the centre of midfield but still have a multiple outlets up front. In 2006-7 the loss of the creativity of Carrick obliged him to change the game plan slightly, with Malbranque offering creativity on the left but still discouraged from hugging the touch line.

I do have doubts about whether 4-4-2 can still work in the Premiership, and that is one reason I have always had reservations about Ramos' appointment, that he is so associated with the system. The other reservation was that since we did not have players to play Ramos' system, he would undo all the good work of the last few seasons and start again from scratch.

Based on indications so far, on and off the pitch, I am fairly sure that Ramos intends to play the same system as at Sevilla. I am looking forward to some exciting football, but I not sure how the results will go.

 

[yanno]

But if we bought Modric (which I would love)for example, how would we play him (a question I couldn't answer very well when Yanno asked). The answer is probably that we would have to play in a similar way to arsenal or ManU. Which I could definatley live with I think.

B-C: I've been one of those arguing for some time that Ramos would be likely to continue his Sevilla 4-4-2 system, "compact with wingers" in Alvarez's description.

However, I think the ITK that Berba is probably leaving changes everything. One of the key reasons I thought Ramos would aim to play 4-4-2 was that Berbatov was able to play almost exactly the same linking/fulcrum role for us that Kanoute plays for Sevilla. Take Berba out of that equation, and try to think of an affordable world class player in that mould, and it's a huge problem. Unless we get really lucky in the summer, we will not be able to replace Berba with a very similar player.

Now, we have seen Ramos' great willingness to change formations during matches (eg 3-5-2 with Zokora as a spare CB, 3 CMs against Chavski when Huddlestone came on in the CC Final). And as you state, Manure & Chavski effectively play a fluid 4-5-1/4-3-3. The goons often play with only one out-and-out striker, Adebayor, and Liverpool have recently switched to a 4-2-3-1 (with Kuyt & Babel wide, two holding CMs, and Gerrard as an ACM behind Torres).

Ramos is by all account a great student of the game. My suspicion is that Berba leaving (if sadly,this happens) may lead him to adopt a similarly fluid system to those of the Top Four. It partly depends on whether we're able to sign a world class ACM (eg Diego, Riquelme). If we do, then Bent and Keane will be competing for one striker place next season....

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Good initial post.

Jol, always said 4-4-2 was too rigid, and wanted a more fluid formation, unfortunately he never really had the players to pull it off, though when it worked we were a handful for anyone. In 2005-6 with Davids he attempted to have the best of both the 4-4-2 and 4-3-3 worlds with a lop-sided team formation, that allowed us to pack the centre of midfield but still have a multiple outlets up front. In 2006-7 the loss of the creativity of Carrick obliged him to change the game plan slightly, with Malbranque offering creativity on the left but still discouraged from hugging the touch line.

I do have doubts about whether 4-4-2 can still work in the Premiership, and that is one reason I have always had reservations about Ramos' appointment, that he is so associated with the system. The other reservation was that since we did not have players to play Ramos' system, he would undo all the good work of the last few seasons and start again from scratch.

Based on indications so far, on and off the pitch, I am fairly sure that Ramos intends to play the same system as at Sevilla. I am looking forward to some exciting football, but I not sure how the results will go.

EB, Jol had the perfect set of players to try a proper 451. Which not only could have been atacking but would have compensated for their individual deficiencies. He could have had huddlestone sweeping behind Jenas & Zokora with any of Malbranque/Lennon/Bale/Taarabt in there for extra creativity. Not only could this have been attacking in a kind of Arse/ManU way but would have compensated for the individual weaknesses of Huddlestone etc.

Jol was never going to capitalse on the "creativity of Carrick" playing him in the holding role in a 442.

I'm sure we didn't sign Malbranque until Jan 06/07 and then he was "injured" for most of it wasn't he ?

 

[Marty]

We signed Malbranque in late August 06, might have been deadline day. He didn't play before November 8th due to an injury he was carrying when we signed him.


(Thank you, Wikipedia)

 

[Bus-Conductor]

B-C: I've been one of those arguing for some time that Ramos would be likely to continue his Sevilla 4-4-2 system, "compact with wingers" in Alvarez's description.

However, I think the ITK that Berba is probably leaving changes everything. One of the key reasons I thought Ramos would aim to play 4-4-2 was that Berbatov was able to play almost exactly the same linking/fulcrum role for us that Kanoute plays for Sevilla. Take Berba out of that equation, and try to think of an affordable world class player in that mould, and it's a huge problem. Unless we get really lucky in the summer, we will not be able to replace Berba with a very similar player.

Now, we have seen Ramos' great willingness to change formations during matches (eg 3-5-2 with Zokora as a spare CB, 3 CMs against Chavski when Huddlestone came on in the CC Final). And as you state, Manure & Chavski effectively play a fluid 4-5-1/4-3-3. The goons often play with only one out-and-out striker, Adebayor, and Liverpool have recently switched to a 4-2-3-1 (with Kuyt & Babel wide, two holding CMs, and Gerrard as an ACM behind Torres).

Ramos is by all account a great student of the game. My suspicion is that Berba leaving (if sadly,this happens) may lead him to adopt a similarly fluid system to those of the Top Four. It partly depends on whether we're able to sign a world class ACM (eg Diego, Riquelme). If we do, then Bent and Keane will be competing for one striker place next season....

There's absoloutely no way keane could play the lone striker role. He's too scared of contact. And Bent isn't good enough to do it for us - he's no Adebayor or Drogba.

We'd be better off buying Crouch for that role (Peckhart ?).

It would be sad if we do get to sign someone like Modric and lose Berbatov. It's having a group of players like that that makes great teams. For arguments sake let's say we could pull off a couple of the names we've ben linke with and have a side like this next season:

GK

Hutton Woody King Gilberto

Lennon Jenas Tiago Modric Bale

Berbatov


Now tell me that wouldn't be as good if not better than liverpool now ?

 

[yanno]

There's absoloutely no way keane could play the lone striker role. He's too scared of contact. And Bent isn't good enough to do it for us - he's no Adebayor or Drogba.

We'd be better off buying Crouch for that role (Peckhart?)

I am, once again, fearing a summer bid for Peter Crouch. Perhaps, subconsciously, that's why I'm hoping Ramos will switch to a more fluid style... :wink:

Now, I rate both Keane & Bent more highly than you, but I don't really want to have that debate here. Rather, I'm more interested in discussing the fact that Man Utd have managed to have a highly successful season without playing a big, physical (Adebayor, Drogba-type) striker.

At the beginning of the season, I had my doubts about Manure's purchase of Tevez. I thought he was too similar to Rooney, and they would need Saha to be fit to offer them a target up front. In reality, Ferguson (and Quieroz) have created a very fluid 4-3-3/4-5-1 with Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez often changing positions during the match. This has meant they can also play 3 CMs - eg Carrick, Hargreaves & Scholes.

I'm sure Ramos will have been looking at this, and wondering whether it would be possible to do something similar at Spurs. That said, I'm still gutted about the Berba ITK, because as well as being an ideal fulcrum in a 4-4-2, he would also be the ideal point of attack in a 4-5-1...

 

[van_Pommel]

There's absoloutely no way keane could play the lone striker role. He's too scared of contact. And Bent isn't good enough to do it for us - he's no Adebayor or Drogba.

We'd be better off buying Crouch for that role (Peckhart ?).

It would be sad if we do get to sign someone like Modric and lose Berbatov. It's having a group of players like that that makes great teams. For arguments sake let's say we could pull off a couple of the names we've ben linke with and have a side like this next season:

GK

Hutton Woody King Gilberto

Lennon Jenas Tiago Modric Bale

Berbatov


Now tell me that wouldn't be as good if not better than liverpool now ?

I think it would be more like:

-----------------GK----------------
-----------------------------------
-Hutton----Woody---King-----Bale-
-----------------------------------
---------Jenas-------Tiago---------
--------------Modric---------------
--Lennon--------------Keane/Steed/?
--------------Berba---------------

 

[buttons]

5-Hutton right wing back, Bale Left wing back, Keane just behind front two of Bent and (insert Berby replacement). 3 centre backs, currently, Woody, King and Daws. As for the two centrol midfielders, two new signings, Poulsen and some other hard nut to boss the middle of the park.

Players not mentioned will be sold ie Lennon and Jenas, unless Jenas can play a hard tackling role in the middle.

New keeper also.

Stick Hudd in as the third centre back and i think it might work........he will have time on the ball to pick his pass and needn't worry about being too mobile like he would in midfield. In midfield i would have a dirty hard b*strad like Poulsen, Jenas and Bentley and then 2 forwards......hopeully Berbs and Keane!

 

[montylynch]

IMO, This year he's playing a system to suit our players. I'm sure he has a system in mind and i'm sure at this moment he feels we just don't have the players for it. We see it on the right, a pacy winger with a full back overlapping. Unfortunately we don't see it on the left which has been our problem since about 561BC (when a right footed moses played done the left).

I'm confident he'll get it right in the summer.