Tottenham Takeover Talk

[wearetheparklane]

I'm not against it but it's not because I think we will suddenly become an English PSG. Far from it.

The world has changed, there are states that have a lot of wealth due to natural resources that know it won't last forever and are looking to spread the wealth around to future proof it I guess

The list of companies that have been invested in is seemingly endless, like it or not you can't avoid it.

To take it back to yesterdays debate about mobile phones is the Crux of it for me. People rightly point out they have a right to an opinion and you can't dismiss it because they're simply partaking in modern life. And their right but it seems to me that were then expecting football clubs to hold themselves to a higher standard than pretty much everyone else

Us fans pretty much have to use mobile phones to really get on, I mean you can use a ten quid nokia if you want but with the stuff we use and store on them you would struggle without a smartphone. We (I) work for companies owned or part owned by oil states whether we know it or not. We use social media platforms , Appa shops etc that are part owned by them. You get the drift.

If you don't you would almost have to withdraw from modern life. So no I don't blame anyone.

But then you're expecting your football club which is a private company owned by people who want just like the rest of us to make money to not partake in it . You're expecting them to ignore the fact the organisations your in are in with them, ignore the fact you play clubs owned by them and ignore you likely use sponsors part owned by them and refuse to let them take investment from them even though the investment is absolutely everywhere around them because of some supposed moral high ground we have?

I used to be angry just like many but what are you fighting? The money is all around us, they clearly don't care if we like them or not and it's going to come to every team at one point.

If you really can't handle it then ( not you personally I mean in general) then walk away now because football went a long time ago. Even our own government which sells weapons to the Saudis and pushed through their purchase of the barcodes have gone.

This isn't a black and white issue where someone is either 'wrong' or 'right' or is definitely a hypocrite or definitely isn't one. I see this issue, and specifically one's actual reaction to it as something that can be put on a sliding scale.

Whilst I can wholeheartedly reject the ethics and morals of the Qatari governments oppressive and discriminatory autocratic rule, is it practical for me to show my opinion by not driving a car, or using a phone, or visiting any shop/business funded by them? No it isn't. It doesn't mean I am a hypocrite as I am not able to reject them completely. I don't want the sea levels to rise either, but I know full well that by just being alive I am contributing to that happening - and i don't consider suicide as necessary for me to show my commitment to reducing climate change.

We strive for, and aim to achieve, positive change in the way we can, and not following or supporting Spurs if they are complicit in what I perceive to be morally wrong is justifiable and achievable in my eyes. I do not begrudge anyone who either a) does not share my opinion of Qatar and other oppressive regimes or b) does not think that un-supporting spurs is worthwhile in any way. It's a personal moral decision I guess - if it came to it I wouldn't tell anyone, i'd just stop going to games or buying stuff or watching on TV...

 

[Japhet]

That is a fair point . I think we all know that the vast majority (if not every single one of them) wringing their hands and saying they will no longer be a Spurs fan if this happens are full of it.

How exactly would you know this? Seems more likely to me you're talking out of your arse.

 

[HildoSpur]

How exactly would you know this? Seems more likely to me you're talking out of your arse.

I may well be, let's see what happens then shall we? I suspect, very strongly, that most people are full of shite when it comes to this and very few, if any, would genuinely stop supporting their club as a result. Maybe I'm wrong but I would be pretty surprised if I was.

 

[bc205]

If they are adamant that they are going to invest in the Prem then we can become part of the problem or we can be pushed further down the pyramid as a result. Either way we lose in some respect, and they still get their minority stake somewhere.

As I say I was against this for years but as it becomes more of a reality that it may happen it's worth taking the time to do some research into how far they have come in the last 20-25 years as well as what they are still doing you are opposed to. As I say it is not a quick fix to change the thinking of generations of Qatari's who have lived a certain way with certain beliefs for as long as time, but they are evolving and taking on more western thinking and practices a lot faster than the West did.

Yes they still have a long way to go but they are not the all evil regime they are made out to be by the press, and for whatever reason they are moving in this direction. Be it for political, financial or moral reasons they are moving in the right direction and I'd say the more they interact with the west the younger generations will become more and more in line with it's thinking.

The truth about Qatar

The Qatar I lived in for eight years is unrecognisable from the television ads running in Washington. In these Saudi-sponsored spots, Trump administration officials denounce...

www.gulf-times.com

I completely understand your point about the inevitability of an investment like this, and how the premier league is a lost cause anyway. Personally i think i would probably stop going to games if this goes ahead, as morally this would just be a bridge too far for me,. But i appreciate that everyone has different views on this, and that many don't want to view their sports team through a moral/political lense.

But I don't really understand the point you are trying to make here on changing the thinking of the Qataris. That is a good argument for maintaining relations between the West and Qatar, and for the beneficial effect that trade etc can have in Qatar. But that is a very different, almost polar opposite, thing to what happens with sports washing. The whole point of sports washing is for Qatar to build up enough influence and positive PR in the West that they can ignore/deflect criticism of their repressive regime. So if they are buying a stake in Tottenham for sports washing purposes then that is not a sign of evolution at all, and makes it less likely that they will do so.

Also, while Qatar might not be as bad as other regimes in the area, and i am sure has made some progress over the last few decades, it is still a pretty fucking awful regime. Just recently there were reports of government officials running sting operations to uncover and sexually assualt homosexuals. If that isn't evil then i don't know what is.

Qatari officials accused of gang raping gay man in hotel before deporting him

A gay man who lived in Qatar has revealed the harrowing truth about sting operations in place to capture members of the queer community.

www.thepinknews.com

 

[eViL]

I know that folks are backing this because they're sick of not winning anything, but does anyone truly think that the solution to that is to become another part of the problem?

Some of us aren't even sick of not winning anything; we're sick of listening to the bunch that insist on whinging about it at every opportunity.

I'll take the oil money just for them to shut the fuck up.

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

If they are adamant that they are going to invest in the Prem then we can become part of the problem or we can be pushed further down the pyramid as a result. Either way we lose in some respect, and they still get their minority stake somewhere.

As I say I was against this for years but as it becomes more of a reality that it may happen it's worth taking the time to do some research into how far they have come in the last 20-25 years as well as what they are still doing you are opposed to. As I say it is not a quick fix to change the thinking of generations of Qatari's who have lived a certain way with certain beliefs for as long as time, but they are evolving and taking on more western thinking and practices a lot faster than the West did.

Yes they still have a long way to go but they are not the all evil regime they are made out to be by the press, and for whatever reason they are moving in this direction. Be it for political, financial or moral reasons they are moving in the right direction and I'd say the more they interact with the west the younger generations will become more and more in line with it's thinking.

The truth about Qatar

The Qatar I lived in for eight years is unrecognisable from the television ads running in Washington. In these Saudi-sponsored spots, Trump administration officials denounce...

www.gulf-times.com

I’ve been trying to do what Trix is doing - get a better understanding of Qatar in particular. I’ve reached a similar conclusion - Qataris want to be part of the global community and are working in that direction. I don’t get the sense that the country is full of religious zealots who set on abusing anyone who is not a follower.

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

as morally this would just be a bridge too far for me,.

I am curious about this - and recognize that you are far from alone in this thinking - but what is the moral problem specifically? Genuine question as I am trying to understand more.

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

Also, while Qatar might not be as bad as other regimes in the area, and i am sure has made some progress over the last few decades, it is still a pretty fucking awful regime. Just recently there were reports of government officials running sting operations to uncover and sexually assualt homosexuals. If that isn't evil then i don't know what is.

I don’t want to minimize this at all - but sadly gay men and women face abuse all over the world - including in England and the United States.

We should all be working towards being more respectful of each other - but this is a world wide problem - not a Qatari specific problem.

 

[Pochemon94]

even if they are investing in us. I feel like this is a year away and won't be something that really happens until 2024

 

[bc205]

I am curious about this - and recognize that you are far from alone in this thinking - but what is the moral problem specifically? Genuine question as I am trying to understand more.

For me specifically in this case it would be about a repressive regime using a club i love to increase their influence and launder their reputation. I think i would be equally opposed to an Abramovich type individual trying to do the same thing.

I guess everyone has different moral lenses and breaking points. I can accept that in the modern world there is no virtuous bilionaire/investment company that is going to own spurs, and that we are unlkely to ever have a fan ownership model. So i can accept a run of the mill investment company like ENIC/FSG owning Tottenham, and would probably be ok with a Kroenke type figure. I don't like it, but i accept it as it is primarily a business investment. But for me personally sports washing is a very different and more morally egregious type of ownership, and i think that it would be a red line for me.

 

[bc205]

I don’t want to minimize this at all - but sadly gay men and women face abuse all over the world - including in England and the United States.

We should all be working towards being more respectful of each other - but this is a world wide problem - not a Qatari specific problem.

Yes of course. I'm not trying to say that Qatar is much worse than other countries on this, and to be clear the focus of my criticism is on the government/state, not the people.

But it is the Qatari state who are potentially buying a stake in the club, and that same state directly employs people whose job is to target and assault homosexuals. The point i was making is that this is evil, and demonstrates why i don't want them anywhere near our club, not that they are the only ones that do this.

 

[Trix]

I completely understand your point about the inevitability of an investment like this, and how the premier league is a lost cause anyway. Personally i think i would probably stop going to games if this goes ahead, as morally this would just be a bridge too far for me,. But i appreciate that everyone has different views on this, and that many don't want to view their sports team through a moral/political lense.

But I don't really understand the point you are trying to make here on changing the thinking of the Qataris. That is a good argument for maintaining relations between the West and Qatar, and for the beneficial effect that trade etc can have in Qatar. But that is a very different, almost polar opposite, thing to what happens with sports washing. The whole point of sports washing is for Qatar to build up enough influence and positive PR in the West that they can ignore/deflect criticism of their repressive regime. So if they are buying a stake in Tottenham for sports washing purposes then that is not a sign of evolution at all, and makes it less likely that they will do so.

Also, while Qatar might not be as bad as other regimes in the area, and i am sure has made some progress over the last few decades, it is still a pretty fucking awful regime. Just recently there were reports of government officials running sting operations to uncover and sexually assualt homosexuals. If that isn't evil then i don't know what is.

Qatari officials accused of gang raping gay man in hotel before deporting him

A gay man who lived in Qatar has revealed the harrowing truth about sting operations in place to capture members of the queer community.

www.thepinknews.com

It is beyond awful, I don't disagree at all, but as I keep saying it's ingrained in their culture and psyche due to generation after generation being this way just like your old Nan is a bit racist and is very unlikely to chang her views now. The point I'm making is that the more and more these states involve themselves in western business and practices the younger generations will see things differently. Just like the younger generations in China, Russia and Iran push for change and demonstrate against how things are. It's how all societies evolve with the younger generations wanting things to be different for their children etc. Like I say if I hadn't looked into it and seen they are trying to move forward and align more with western values I'd be far more against it, but they are, and shutting Qatar off from the West would achieve nothing other than slow down the process as they would be far less likely to see and understand the principles and fundamentals we believe they have to change.

 

[bc205]

It is beyond awful, I don't disagree at all, but as I keep saying it's ingrained in their culture and psyche due to generation after generation being this way just like your old Nan is a bit racist and is very unlikely to changer her views now. The point I'm making is that the more and more these states involve themselves in western business and practices the younger generations will see things differently. Just like the younger generations in China, Russia and Iran push for change and demonstrate against how things are. It's how all societies evolve with the younger generations wanting things to be different for their children etc. Like I say if I hadn't looked into it and seen they are trying to move forward and align more with western values I'd be far more against it, but they are, and shutting Qatar off from the West would achieve nothing other than slow down the process as they would be far less likely to see and understand the principles and fundamentals we believe they have to change.

Yeah, i agree with most of what you are saying, and certainly with maintaining relations with them to increase positive influence etc

But i just still don't see how sports washing helps with this? It seems to me that it will hinder more than help, especially if it helps them to deflect/ignore criticism.

 

[Trix]

Yeah, i agree with most of what you are saying, and certainly with maintaining relations with them to increase positive influence etc

But i just still don't see how sports washing helps with this? It seems to me that it will hinder more than help, especially if it helps them to deflect/ignore criticism.

I'm not sure how much sports washing they'll generate from being a minority shareholder. I'd also say those that are angry with them for what they have done will still be angry at them for doing what they have done/are doing. Those that don't care anyway still won't care.

 

[Tucker]

I don’t want to minimize this at all - but sadly gay men and women face abuse all over the world - including in England and the United States.

We should all be working towards being more respectful of each other - but this is a world wide problem - not a Qatari specific problem.

Sorry but that exactly what you’re doing isn’t it?

There’s a big difference between small scale societal homophobia in the UK and full on state repression of lgbt rights in Qatar.

That shouldn’t need explaining. To compare the two is frankly insulting, and it’s so depressing to see otherwise reasonable posters such as yourself falling into this kind of false equivalence.

I guess it doesn’t take more than the flashing of a little money and the small potential of winning a trophy for some people to lose their moral compass.

 

[Zaphod]

Pfft. Are all morally dubious oil rich states this bloody slow in investing? Come on Qatar, crap or get off the pot.

 

[N'Obody]

Has anyone got any popcorn?

Sweet or salty?

 

[SirNiNyHotspur]

What is the downside for ENIC? I can't see one. They sell for 25% at min market value and they wont have to pay as much on transfers

The downside for ENIC would be if they believe the likes of Boehy who believes the potential is there to increase income to even crazier levels with many untapped avenues, therefore they’d want to keep all that pie for themselves.
The downside for Levy would be he may be concerned if he waits until the summer he may be offered a penny more. Levy will want to wring every penny he can get from potential investment so probably the biggest hurdle to ever seeing us changing owners.
That all said I’m not sure how ENIC navigate with their continued self restricted policies on the players we buy. It hasn’t brought us success for 23 years, the stadium game changer has to be about more than how good the end of year profits read. Fans have had enough so I feel they are at a point they have to decide prioritize the team or sell, Levy/ENIC are out of get out of jail free cards, fundamental change is required at the top one way or another if we are to be a successful football team.

 

[McFlash]

Moral issue ? I don’t know how much you know about the religion ( aside of the tabloid headlines ) , so I would suggest you actually research it fully before making such statements .
re state - it’s based on something approx 1.9bn people in the world believe in. Obviously if someone doesn’t like thier setup they have the choice to not live there ( just like those who don’t like the uk laws are free to move elsewhere )
I personally rather have my children grow up in a state where alcohol is banned than one where we 13 years old drunk and sprawled all over the streets ..

I'm not getting into the religion aspect because I don't really go for any of that but I would take on your last sentence.

I would much rather my children grow up somewhere they have to freedom to do, or be, whatever they want.
I have 14 and 16 year old boys and neither of them drink fizzy drinks, let alone alcohol.
Just because it may be available, they have the freedom of choice to say yes or no.
You're pointing at a very small minority of neglected children and painting it as the norm.

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

There’s a big difference between small scale societal homophobia in the UK and full on state repression of lgbt rights in Qatar.

I am not sure there is much difference at all - mostly because I don’t think it is “small scale” homophobia in UK/US.

I see it as a large scale multi-cultural problem that gets solved through education and acceptance. I think younger generations world wide are better about this - but generational issues take generations to resolve themselves.