top 4 material?

[fortworthspur]

since Ramos took over, Spurs are averaging 1.47 points per game in EPL play, over 23 games.

under Jol for the last 2 seasons, and first 11 games this season, Spurs averaged 1.54 points per game, over 87 games.

So Ramos or Jol in charge, thats pretty consistent play over the last 3 seasons, and good for about 55-60 points each campaign, depending on the how the breaks go.

After watching the team recently, and in light of these numbers, I have to wonder what reason there is to believe that this team can ring up 70+ points next year and challenge for the top 4. I add to this the assumptions that Berbatov is gone and King is finished as a regular contributor. Keep in mind that even if these two assumptions are wrong, even with a healthy Berbs and King half the time we've never been a Champions League club.

 

[robbiesavagehasbreasts]

you don't always need 70+ to end up in top four. Last season Arsenal finished 4th with only 68 points and the season before that they just managed 67 points. Three seasons ago when Everton finished 4th above L'pool, they only did so with 61 points.

this season liverpool will probably end up with 75+ but next season 60 could be enough, and 80 could not be enough.

 

[guy]

yeah but just think how many games we pissed away this season.

Sunderland - Last minute winner: -1 point
Fulham - Last minute equaliser by overhead kick: -2 points
Liverpool - Last minute equalizer: -2 points
Man U - Last minute equalizer: -2 points
Brum - 2 games we domintaed early on then gave up on: -4 points at least
Chelasea home - had a chance to win it in final min with berba: -2 points

Thats 13 points that easily could have been ours this season. If we add that to our total of abot 50 we'd have 63 points this season and we'd still be playing for something so we wouldve given up the last few games.

Its possible, we can break the top 4!

 

[P-L-P]

If my auntie had bollox she would be my uncle.

 

[llamafarmer]

If my auntie had bollox she would be my uncle.

And your uncle would be gay.

 

[SpurSince57]

“We built a fantastic team in the summer, £30m was spent on players. So there's no excuse, we have some great players there but we just have to make sure they play together.

“For the club to expect to do only as well as last year is unacceptable."

Keith Mills, August 2007

“We have made a massive investment in the squad and as a result we have the best squad of players this club has had for over 20 years.”

Daniel Levy, August 2007

“I don’t accept we will have failed if we don’t make it next season.”

Daniel Levy, last week

"We always want to produce the best performance possible but you have to understand the situation the team is in. We are in the middle of the table, the points aren't excessively important - we can't reach the top part of the table and we don't seem to be in danger. It is not easy to get the maximum motivation when the team is in this situation."

Juande Ramos, Saturday


WTF?

 

[Juande]

“We built a fantastic team in the summer, £30m was spent on players. So there's no excuse, we have some great players there but we just have to make sure they play together.

“For the club to expect to do only as well as last year is unacceptable."

Keith Mills, August 2007

“We have made a massive investment in the squad and as a result we have the best squad of players this club has had for over 20 years.”

Daniel Levy, August 2007

“I don’t accept we will have failed if we don’t make it next season.”

Daniel Levy, last week

"We always want to produce the best performance possible but you have to understand the situation the team is in. We are in the middle of the table, the points aren't excessively important - we can't reach the top part of the table and we don't seem to be in danger. It is not easy to get the maximum motivation when the team is in this situation."

Juande Ramos, Saturday


WTF?

I would rather listen to Ramos than that twat Mills, Great Players Fantastic Team, really what at Man Utd

 

[DC_Boy]

it was clear to me at the start of last season we weren't top 4 material - a lot of spurs official/fans/media got carried away on the back of some ridiculous hype

you only had to look at the team that trotted out v Mackems to see that wasn't a top 4 team - you only had to see the game to confirm it

just as obviously we're not top 4 material now - nowhere near

at least 4 or 5 players short - probably if Berbs goes 5 or 6

 

[SpurSince57]

Jol was given the boot because:

a) he was too lax
b) he was 'tactically naive'
c) he was unable to get this 'fantastic team' to achieve its potential (or reach the famed 'next level')
d) he claimed the team had overachieved
e) he hadn't been able to beat the 'Big Four'/win a trophy
f) all of the above, plus anything else you feel like chucking in for good measure

Two months after Ramos takes over, and days after Levy has announced there won't be any major spending in January, we splash out £23m on new players; this could easily have been £35m+ if Tiago hadn't pissed us about (and if Marco Amelia is to believed). Even more, perhaps, if Jarque hadn't been injured. Now, every indication is that most of the 'great players' of last August's 'fantastic team' will be gone come next season, and yet the Beloved Leader is now telling us that it won't be a failure if another bout of massive expenditure doesn't result in a top four spot.

Naively, perhaps, I thought that we'd hired Ramos to do what Jol couldn't do with the existing squad, which only needed a top manager to make it competitive. It seems he's given up on that notion. I don't think it unreasonable to ask precisely what is going on, or even to suggest that we're into Emperor's New Clothes territory.

it was clear to me at the start of last season we weren't top 4 material - a lot of spurs official/fans/media got carried away on the back of some ridiculous hype

you only had to look at the team that trotted out v Mackems to see that wasn't a top 4 team - you only had to see the game to confirm it

just as obviously we're not top 4 material now - nowhere near

at least 4 or 5 players short - probably if Berbs goes 5 or 6

Which game against the Mackems are you talking about?

 

[DC_Boy]

Hi 57 -The opening game of course - the one that showed me what I already thought - we ain't top 4 material

 

[nickspurs]

Jol was given the boot because:

a) he was too lax
b) he was 'tactically naive'
c) he was unable to get this 'fantastic team' to achieve its potential (or reach the famed 'next level')
d) he claimed the team had overachieved
e) he hadn't been able to beat the 'Big Four'/win a trophy
f) all of the above, plus anything else you feel like chucking in for good measure

Two months after Ramos takes over, and days after Levy has announced there won't be any major spending in January, we splash out £23m on new players; this could easily have been £35m+ if Tiago hadn't pissed us about (and if Marco Amelia is to believed). Even more, perhaps, if Jarque hadn't been injured. Now, every indication is that most of the 'great players' of last August's 'fantastic team' will be gone come next season, and yet the Beloved Leader is now telling us that it won't be a failure if another bout of massive expenditure doesn't result in a top four spot.

Naively, perhaps, I thought that we'd hired Ramos to do what Jol couldn't do with the existing squad, which only needed a top manager to make it competitive. It seems he's given up on that notion. I don't think it unreasonable to ask precisely what is going on, or even to suggest that we're into Emperor's New Clothes territory.



Which game against the Mackems are you talking about?

We all want success but your attacks on Levy are harsh. Any good leader has to adapt and optimise as events unfold. He makes a handful of big decsions and has to hope that the coach he signs and team he signs off on pull it together on training field and on match days with very little opportunity to fine tune in between windows.

I think you'd only be happy with a Chairman if he laid out a 5 year plan with explicit milestones on points acheived each week, cups won and final league finishes and then he went on to hit each goal.

If Levy says we have a team to compete with the Top 4 he believes it, plus - and this is the bit you never seem to appreciate in modern leadership - he has to endorse them publicly as contenders. He's not going to say "We've spent some money and the team look OK, maybe a few players short." is he??

If we don't break the top 4, yes it's a failure but DL still has to make the statements that he does and change his plans/reinvest more to fix things. After a poor season should he:
a) Say "I said we had a good enough team to compete and I stick by that" and then sign no new players or
b) Realise that the team wasn't good enough and spend more money to fix it.

It's about adapting to the outcomes and making the NEXT right decision. It's proactive management.

SS57 - who would you replace Levy with if he's such a disaster?

 

[Juande]

Hi 57 -The opening game of course - the one that showed me what I already thought - we ain't top 4 material

Like you say DC alot of us that have actually watched football over the years new full well that we were never going to make the top 4, and when you look at the players over the course of the season you can see why, the potential of these young players was big when we bought them, but for one reason or the other it has not worked out, i do also agree with 57 when he says we should be asking questions about the amount of money we have spent, but i am optomistic that Ramos will bring more success to this club.

 

[SpurSince57]

Hi 57 -The opening game of course - the one that showed me what I already thought - we ain't top 4 material

Not the second one, where we spent most of the second half hanging on before grabbing a highly flattering second goal at the death?

We all want success but your attacks on Levy are harsh. Any good leader has to adapt and optimise as events unfold. He makes a handful of big decsions and has to hope that the coach he signs and team he signs off on pull it together on training field and on match days with very little opportunity to fine tune in between windows.

I think you'd only be happy with a Chairman if he laid out a 5 year plan with explicit milestones on points acheived each week, cups won and final league finishes and then he went on to hit each goal.

If Levy says we have a team to compete with the Top 4 he believes it, plus - and this is the bit you never seem to appreciate in modern leadership - he has to endorse them publicly as contenders. He's not going to say "We've spent some money and the team look OK, maybe a few players short." is he??

If we don't break the top 4, yes it's a failure but DL still has to make the statements that he does and change his plans/reinvest more to fix things. After a poor season should he:
a) Say "I said we had a good enough team to compete and I stick by that" and then sign no new players or
b) Realise that the team wasn't good enough and spend more money to fix it.

It's about adapting to the outcomes and making the NEXT right decision. It's proactive management.

SS57 - who would you replace Levy with if he's such a disaster?

Attacks on Levy? What ever do you mean? How is quoting the Beloved Leader's words attacking him?

I was under the impression that we had a five-year plan that was going more or less according to script.

 

[DC_Boy]

Juande - and no, not the 2nd one 57 - the damage was well done by then

Where to begin to get a top 4 side -

as so many have said, a defensive/midfield hard man leader would help - a Keane or Mackay is too much to hope for, but a modern day Roberts would be a start

 

[SpurSince57]

The damage had been so irretrievably done that we beat the Scum 5-1 three days later.

 

[DC_Boy]

well of course the damage had been irretriviably done - we had no chance of finishing top 4 by the time we played Sunderland the second time round

 

[DC_Boy]

With regard to becoming a 'permanent member of the Big 4' or turning it into a big 5 - I've said so many times the only way I think we can do it is by getting an absolute massive cash injection(s) into the club

Chelsea crashed the big 3 by this method - first in the 90s they gambled money they didn't have - nearly went into admin then got saved by Abramovich

I really don't see any other way to do it -

of course a team like Everton or us might get a top 4 place one season - but for sustained success we need a massive ppush - either through someone(s) financing a new stadium and gettting the revenue that way - or buy a massive amount spent on wages and transfers - it's a massive gamble even then - we need people who can afford that gamble

ATM we're run on a businesss model - and overall I'm happy with ENIC & co - but we're no nearer breaking into the cartel than 3 years ago - and I don't see us doing it on this model

 

[nickspurs]

With regard to becoming a 'permanent member of the Big 4' or turning it into a big 5 - I've said so many times the only way I think we can do it is by getting an absolute massive cash injection(s) into the club

Chelsea crashed the big 3 by this method - first in the 90s they gambled money they didn't have - nearly went into admin then got saved by Abramovich

I really don't see any other way to do it -

of course a team like Everton or us might get a top 4 place one season - but for sustained success we need a massive ppush - either through someone(s) financing a new stadium and gettting the revenue that way - or buy a massive amount spent on wages and transfers - it's a massive gamble even then - we need people who can afford that gamble

ATM we're run on a businesss model - and overall I'm happy with ENIC & co - but we're no nearer breaking into the cartel than 3 years ago - and I don't see us doing it on this model

Hi DC - I generally think we share a lot of the same views but I think I'm more optimistic than you on this one. The hard bit is obviously getting into the Top 4 for the first time. But if we did do that I think the club would have the resource and business acumen to be able to raise the stakes and keep us there.

I think with the promised CL revenues for a season (and what the club could expect to make that worth with our fan base, a CL multipler effect if you will) we could make a sustained assualt on the Top 4 without betting the ranch a la Leeds.

Let's not forget we've been able to achieve very high levels of squad investment without risking the future of the business just on a couple of UEFA campaigns (and they pay hardly anything).

Obviously our problem is the return on investment but as you spend more (scale) you can get away with the odd duff purchase if a few others pay off. Liverpool are very hit and miss with their purchases but are still Top 4

I just think that Spurs are one of the few 'outsiders' that could make one CL campaign count as we can spend a lot and probably attract better players than say, an Everton with a CL spot.

 

[DC_Boy]

Hi Nick - fair comments

one thing I want to emphasise is I don't want us betting the ranch

to me the only realistic way forward to 'Big 4/5 dom' is getting in someone(s) who can write a cheque for £200m and then next season write out another one for £100m - and not expect to see the money back

And probably the best use of that money would be on a stadium - so the revenues are guaranteed (unlike relying on throwing money at players)

Dreamland - probably - but it happened to Chelsea - to a smaller extent it happened to Rovers (the money needed wasn't so big then)

But hey it's good to be optimistic - maybe we can do it using the ENIC modle - I just can't see it myself that's all

 

[lukespurs7]

Hmm we'll just have to wait and see. When we win games and play well we all seem to think yea we can do this top4 but when we lose or get a bad result/performance we all doubt our chances.

I think in terms of our squad, simply: We don't have enough quality and not in the right areas. We aren't far off but unless we address the CORRECT areas in summer it won't matter how much we spend.

Secondly we need a consistant leader, it's no coinscidence that the top4 all have 1 or 2 GREAT leaders who can pick up the team by the scruff of their neck without having to be motivated always by the management team.

Thirdly, as for Ramos and Poyet, they've seemed to overall improve the defence a bit if not only from set pieces and we still play lovely attacking football but at times lack a bit of balance, still to prove their worth but seem tactically more astute than jol.

Finally, this year the start we had really hindered us, we have played very well vs the big teams this season which is positive, if we invest in the right areas and get a better start to next season, stop conceding as many goals especially after we've taken the lead and find a bit more consistency i.e don't win at home one week then lose away to birmingham the next then there is still a chance we can break into the top4. It will be difficult but theres a chance. However unless we invest in the right areas and get a leader and really improve defensively then we have no chance.

Who knows