The sliding doors moment

[rossdapep]

Didn't really know which thread to put this in as it could go in several and I'm interested to see what others think.

Which moment was our sliding doors moment from looking like a serious team to becoming one lacking in direction?

I think many would say the 2018 window when we didn't;t make a signing and that does hold weight. Maybe when we went for Jose instead of some continuation?

I personally think it all started before this. The summer transfer window of 2017.

We'd just finished 2nd to Chelsea and there was a massive wave of optimism throughout the entire club that we could get even better.

Before then, we had been on a gradual rise from 5th to two consecutive title challenges, the second one being even stronger. This was the stage where we needed to level up.

Were players like Rose, Dier, Lamela, Winks and Davies going to get better? Was Dembele going to get over his niggly injuries? Was Eriksen going to sign that contract? Was Sissoko the best we could do? Was Toby's falling out with Poch going to cause too much disruption?

This point felt like the first sign of some cracks appearing with Poch. Then Walker left. Then we got the Rose interview.

At this stage, the team needed to know the boss was Poch and that if you weren't all in, you were out. Therefore, this window presented a mini shuffle.

We could have sold some of those who were never gonna be better than what they were showing (Dier, Lamela) and those who were rumbling/not signing contracts (Toby/Eriksen).

Of course this is a risk because the latter 2 were very important and perhaps Erisken needed to be sold the window later. But I do feel we could have sold some on and give Poch a refresh that served as a booster.

This was the business we did do;
Sanchez - 42m
Gazzaniga - ??
Foyth - 10m
Aurier - 23m
Llorente - 12m

Can we say that any of these players have been an improvement on what we had before them?

Sanchez - Supposed to replace either Toby or Jan in time but hasn't.
Gazzaniga - Not sure if he was brought in as a potential Hugo replacement but he was not up to it.
Foyth - I liked Foyth but he only had something like 700 minutes of professional football at this point so he was never gonna replace Jan or Toby quickly.
Aurier - This was a bit of an odd option as he wasn't really similar to Walker. Robust but rash and not someone capable of pinning teams back.
Llorente - Ok, this was back up gap filler. But when you want to kick on, you bring in something better.

Because these 5 players haven't replaced their predecessors, we've ended up falling back on sub par options - Dier and Davies have ended up becoming Toby and Jan's replacements.

I believe we should have been better doubling down, rather than thinking years ahead.
- Signed an established CB only a few years behind Jan/Toby rather than go for a 21 year-old and inexperienced 19 year-old.
- We could have sold Toby and brought in 2 more established CBs.
- I wouldn't have replaced Walker. Instead, I'd have promoted KWP and told Trippier that was his spot. If it failed, find the solution later.
- That money could then have gone on Rose's replacement or a CM to replace Dembele.
- Looked at how we could have funded a move for someone like Zaha - whether that is to sell one of the aforementioned players.

I realise that a lot of this is hindsight but I believe we got so much wrong this window and address somethings, so much so that by the 2018 window a lot of issues had developed (Eriksen's contract, Toby's contract, injury-prone players taking up wage bill and because we brought in totters we couldn't add to the squad in some areas.)

What was your 'sliding doors' moment?

 

[Yiddo100]

The lack of direction was clear for me when we went from Jose to Nuno.
I get why Levy hired Jose because he thought we had winners but not the winning manager.
it’s been somewhat of a downward slide since we signed no players in that summer for poch, although we got the CL final in that season the slide had somewhat started.

 

[Dougal]

Sissoko handball 20 seconds into the Champions League Final. Had we won that game we would always have that triumph to look back on that even Levy couldn’t take away with subsequent financial buffoonery. But it’s gone. And here we are.

 

[mabolsa_ritchey]

Hiring Nuno.

 

[mil1lion]

When I looked at the team sheet and saw Winks and Sissoko instead of Dembele and Wanyama

 

[Darth Vega]

Every summer from 2016 onwards.

2016: could've won the league with better investment

2017: replaced Walker with Aurier, unspectacular signings in Foyth, Sanchez and others

2018: no signings was an obvious calamity

2019: signings this time, but they were so bad and so costly it sometimes tricks me into thinking we had the right idea in 2018

2020-present: mostly shit recruitment and managerial hires to boot. Definitely improved since Paratici came in but we've been left with so much to do thanks to all the previous years we're still well short of where we need to be

 

[Cochise]

I think the first time I felt like this was signing Saha and Nelsen when real investment could have seen us push for more than Europe.

Second time was the empty summer. We stagnated.

Lastly was the docu series.

 

[For the love of Spurs]

Probably outside the club. Chelsea getting bought by Abramovich and City getting bought by AD. We would have won titles without them coming in the league and gotten players like Eden Hazard.

 

[spursfan77]

Sissoko handball 20 seconds into the Champions League Final. Had we won that game we would always have that triumph to look back on that even Levy couldn’t take away with subsequent financial buffoonery. But it’s gone. And here we are.

We all knew we'd throw that game away somehow, but I didn't think even us would do it in the first minute!

That game depressed me about the club for nearly 2 years, I really don't want to go back to that so trying to not get drawn into it all. Very difficult though not to.

 

[C1w8]

I dont think there has been a sliding doors moment. Our aspirations as a club imo is to be a top 4 club and if we're lucky we steal a pot here and there, which we've been close to doing on a few occasions but never got over the line.

 

[Cel]

End of the 16-17 Season. We played so bloody well for almost 6 months. Last 15 games were like 13 wins, and we were literally smashing teams, goals all over the place (we had a +60 goal difference that year!!) - 86 points and we had nothing to show for it, as Chelsea beat us to the FA cup and the league. Year after that City took over, and had the first 100 point season., and the chances of competing started to slide away.

 

[JayB]

It's not really one sliding door moment, because for me our decline came as a result of the entirety of the recruitment failings from 2016-2019. The ultimate failure of the Pochettino project, and all of the subsequent dysfunction, really takes place amidst the backdrop of those four summer windows all taken together.

The squad was in a good place going into summer 2016 but there were obvious areas that called for improvement. We made a shrewd signing in Wanyama, but the others were characteristic of Levy's risk aversion. Poch wanted a pacey winger and chased after Mane and Zaha, but Levy was unwilling to pay what would have been required to get them. Instead, we wound up with a bargain basement punt in Nkoudou, replacing the bargain bin pacey winger punt we'd taken the previous summer in Njie. There was also Sissoko, whose wage demands were more tolerable to Levy than the superior alternatives Poch actually wanted, but whose lack of technique made him a deeply flawed signing as an attacking signing. Similarly, Poch was denied his first-choice Kane backup and given Janssen, whose CV consisted only of a six-month purple patch in a piss-poor league. The end result was that we failed to improve any of the areas we'd set out to strengthen going into the window other than with Wanyama, who promptly fucked his knee.

The same general dynamic played out the next summer. Sanchez was an ambitious signing but one who ultimately failed to represent real improvement. Otherwise, it was the same old second-choice (Aurier, Lucas in January) and bargain-rate (Foyth, Llorente) signings. Again, we failed to make any lasting improvements on the first XI.

So the squad was already in a two-year long period of stagnation by the time we reached summer 2018, and Poch had repeatedly been denied his targets throughout. He put his foot down and demanded that he be given his chosen signings or no one at all, and Levy obliged by delivering no one at all. That turned out to be a massive mistake, but it was an understandable stance for Poch to take given everything that had transpired leading up to that point. The disaster of 2018 can't be understood without reference to the preceding windows.

Of course, we all know how things went after that. By the time Poch was finally given his preferred signings it was all too late, and he also turned out to be a dreadful scout of a player. If he'd been given reasonable backing that had actually improved the squad in the years leading up to 2019 maybe there would have been a greater willingness to compromise, and less desperation to deliver his hand-picked players notwithstanding the red flags surrounding them.

Had the recruitment setup been even modestly competent in those years we likely could have prevented the gradual decline in the quality of the squad and avoided Pochettino becoming so stubborn, which cost us dearly in the end. We'd have likely kept Eriksen and Kane on side, and Poch may well have been able to see us over the line. We wouldn't constantly be playing catchup with areas of the squad that fell into disarray more quickly than we could fix them. Things would be very, very different at the club if we'd gotten the recruitment anywhere close to right during that period.

 

[13VanDerBale13]

2 Words,

PAINFUL REBUILD

 

[Johnny J]

Every summer from 2017 onwards.

2017: could've won the league with better investment

2018: no signings was an obvious calamity

2019: signings this time, but they were so bad and so costly it sometimes tricks me into thinking we had the right idea in 2018

2020-present: mostly shit recruitment and managerial hires to boot. Definitely improved since Paratici came in but we've been left with so much to do thanks to all the previous years we're still well short of where we need to be

Ding ding ding

 

[Wadec]

I agree with the sentiment about summer 2017, I think there have been lots since then and it seems like with hindsight every time we have made the wrong choice.

I actually think the next few months have the potential to be even bigger. We will likely have to deal with a new manager, new DOF, making a decision regarding our star player(s), moving on numerous squad players all whilst seemingly negotiating potential investment.

I know we have said it about previous manager searches, transfer windows etc. But, I cannot think of a more important period regarding the decision making at the club in recent years. Every decision will have to be spot on, we cannot afford any mistakes. I don't trust or expect the board to get all these decisions right and honestly even if their track record was better I would find it difficult to believe they would get everything right as there is so much change needed at the club.

I have a horrible feeling we will look back in years to come and ask, why did they not part ways with Conte to allow the new manager to analyse the squad? Why didn't they replace Paratici earlier? Why did/didn't they bring back Poch? Why did they sell Kane to a rival or why did they let him leave on a free transfer when they could have got £X for him?

I've long given up any expectation that we will compete at the very top regularly. I hope we can be around the top of the league with the occasional good season where we challenge or win a cup. I do worry if we get these decisions wrong we could fall way behind the state owned/financially doped clubs.

 

[fecka]

It can be argued that Mou was a sliding doors moment, but for me, the hiring of Nuno was the real moment it was evident there was absolutely no direction at the club.
Of course, there were the Mexican standoff transfer windows between Levy & Poch where the latter refused anyone not Frenkie de Jong or Matthijs de Ligt as he was fed up with Levy giving him Sissoko's and Njies - but it's still Nuno for me.

 

[Trotter]

For me it was posting world record profits for a football team in 2017/18 and the total realisation that it didn’t matter how much revenue we made as we were not willing to spend any more than minimum requirement on the playing side.
Plenty of other moments prior to that Nelsen and Saha, the summer of no spend, but when they were posted to just prove the money was there and all we cared about was property that was it.

Every mistake since then (Sacking Poch, Hiring Jose, Hiring Nuno, Hiring Conte) have been secondary to not backing the one manager he should have backed in the first place

 

[curlacious]

Sissoko handball 20 seconds into the Champions League Final. Had we won that game we would always have that triumph to look back on that even Levy couldn’t take away with subsequent financial buffoonery. But it’s gone. And here we are.

If there was ONE moment, it was this. You're seeing it with Liverpool, going so close to the quadruple and all that energy dissipating in 'what could've been' over the summer. I don't think we ever recovered from knowing that final was a moment that wouldn't be repeated.

 

[Misfit]

I'm still sore over Jol...

 

[southlondonyiddo]

Those 2 windows when we signed no one was massive

Even just Grealish would have given that squad a huge lift and freshened things up

We were stale and far too comfortable - it was a very dangerous move at the time and was unprecedented

Then our recruitment in the Summer of 2019 killed us

Clarke
Ndombele
Lo Celso
Sessegnon