The Mauricio Pochettino thread

[skaz04nik]

I'm sure if we were to compare Liverpools revenue, turnover, fan base numbers, wage bill and commercial partnerships with ours we'd see how they have more resources to take bigger risks with than us

Yes Pool is bigger then us but not 2 times and not 50%; 20% difference in turnover cannot explain dramatic difference in risk tolerance.

I don't have the figures for 18/19 but the difference would be even smaller thanks to our CL run

Tottenham
Revenue (16/17) 358 EUR mln (of which 84 mln commercial)
Revenue (17/18): 428 EUR mln (117 commercial)
Insta followers (Fan base proxy): 1.6 (16/17); 3.4 (17/18)

Liverpool
Revenue (16/17) 424 EUR mln (162 mln commercial)
Revenue (17/18): 514 EUR mln (171 commercial)
Insta followers (Fan base proxy): 5.3 (16/17); 11.5 (17/18)

FYI Man Utd's revenue for 17/18 was EUR 670 mln, Citeh 570 mln, Chelsea 506

 

[wrd]

That's fine but can you attribute any of that to our current predicament where we lie 14th in the table with 3 wins out of 12 because I'm really struggling to see it.

No it's not solely to blame but it's certainly contributed to where we're looking unbalanced and I think it's had a compounding effect where we've tried to shift players for 2 years and they're still at the club, that has to have an effect on the dressing room morale. As I say I do think it's contributed quite a bit to the situation we are in where Poch is disillusioned having to get something out of a squad he no longer wants, players own personal situations and its snowballed into the situation we are in. I still think as I said the responsibility is on Poch and has to do better with what he has and stop cutting his nose off to spite his face because ultimately he's the only one who will lose his job over it.

 

[jacko73]

Yes Pool is bigger then us but not 2 times and not 50%; 20% difference in turnover cannot explain dramatic difference in risk tolerance.

I don't have the figures for 18/19 but the difference would be even smaller thanks to our CL run

Tottenham
Revenue (16/17) 358 EUR mln (of which 84 mln commercial)
Revenue (17/18): 428 EUR mln (117 commercial)
Insta followers (Fan base proxy): 1.6 (16/17); 3.4 (17/18)

Liverpool
Revenue (16/17) 424 EUR mln (162 mln commercial)
Revenue (17/18): 514 EUR mln (171 commercial)
Insta followers (Fan base proxy): 5.3 (16/17); 11.5 (17/18)

FYI Man Utd's revenue for 17/18 was EUR 670 mln, Citeh 570 mln, Chelsea 506

They were 2x when poch started his reign. We have closed the gap dramatically as we became CL regulars and our commercial contracts started to reflect that as and when they came up for renewal.

 

[cookiemonster]

As crazy as this may seem, we are only 3 points off 5th place, even with the horrendous season we are having. Not that we aren't completely in meltdown which is how it feels right now, it's still only 3 points and Europe is far from over for us.

That's why we need to sack him and get Mourinho in before its really over

 

[SirHarryHotspur]

CL is be all and end all. European football alone isnt seen as anything to celebrate anymore. The EL is almost seen as a punishment for not being good enough to finish in the top 4

Totally agree but there are some out there that would sacrifice a top 4 finish for a FA Cup win.

 

[skaz04nik]

They were 2x when poch started his reign. We have closed the gap dramatically as we became CL regulars and our commercial contracts started to reflect that as and when they came up for renewal.

No never 2x. We are much wealthier club than you think

13/14: Tottenham 216 Pool 306 (40%)
14/15: Tottenham 258 Pool 392 (50% and that's the highest gap since 08/09. FYI in 10/11 the gap was only 12%)

And how is all this relevant to modern era? Klopp came in Oct 2015 and started throwing cash in 2016-2017

 

[stevenurse]

Totally agree but there are some out there that would sacrifice a top 4 finish for a FA Cup win.

To be honest, at this point I'd probably do the same. Doesn't make it acceptable and in the circumstances I'd say it's damn near essential that he wins it this season.

If you're gonna fuck off the league then it better be worth it in the end.

It shouldn't be one or the other now.

 

[Shadydan]

Whilst he did get us the 3 of the targets Poch wanted, we still had/have such a situation where 3 players was simply not going to do it and the events of the summer before left us with a mountain to climb in the transfer window. We failed to clear the decks for 2 seasons so that we had space for replacements and Poch was seemingly keen all summer to point out that he was not in control of that situation. He have 3 new players over 2 years, I wouldn't call that backing the manager I'd call that the start of backing the manager. We've been told we couldn't get Fernandes because Eriksen wouldn't leave. It sounds like from somebody's info in here that we told Trippier he could leave thinking we were going to land Aarons which didn't happen so we've been left short at RB. Poch does have control of the pitch and the responsibility lies with him because we still have quality to get better results than what wehave but what Levy does and didn't do certainly does impact what we see on the pitch. We have left ourselves a mountain to climb with the summer of 2018.

Wasn't the story with Aarons that his agent pulled the deal at the last min and I'm not sure how Eriksen not leaving is the chairman's fault?

The events of the summer before I agree that can be attributed and the lack of incomings you can definitely point the finger at the chairman but I'm failing to have that much sympathy for Poch because he could have managed the situation better.

 

[yankspurs]

To be honest, at this point I'd probably do the same. Doesn't make it acceptable and in the circumstances I'd say it's damn near essential that he wins it this season.

If you're gonna fuck off the league then it better be worth it in the end.

It shouldn't be one or the other now.

Fucking off the league? By that same measure we fucked off the carabao too. We didnt and arent doing either. We’re just shit and easy to play against. Not like we’re playing much better in CL either. We got shit pumped at home by a poorous Bayern side and bottled it in Greece where we somehow took a lead despite being shit. Red Star are just not good at all. None of this will turn around as long as Poch remains manager.

 

[Lighty64]

It's not on Lighty.
You should start one of those online petitions and list all the excuses, and demand the match be replayed.

you do come over as a twat sometimes, always trying to whined people up

i didn't say it wasn't on, but it's fact something you don't seem to like seeing if it doesn't suit your agenda. just because when you play FM manager things like a team playing 3 times in a week, or not having a break for 2 years might not affect your players. well they do, hence why our injuries have been so high. yes before you actually think about replying perhaps Poch shouldn't train so hard, then I will agree, but we have seen a teams stats change over his time at the club with winning games from losing positions late on, when before he come wasn't 1 of our highest points.

 

[dondo]

I suspect that the decision to fire Poch has been taken but they are struggling to decide on whom to replace him with. I also think that there is probably a very large queue of managers who would be desperate for the job. The issue for Levy, however, is that there is no obvious candidate that ticks all the boxes and the option of a caretaker for the remainder of the season is unpalatable for a myriad of reasons.

Alas, we find ourselves in limbo. Whilst DL can not settle on the next manager, it appears Poch is a lame duck after seemingly lost the backing / unable to motivate players and must be miserable.

I disagree the vibe I got for the latest public board meeting was Levy felt partly responsible and would back Pochettino to the hilt

 

[wrd]

Wasn't the story with Aarons that his agent pulled the deal at the last min and I'm not sure how Eriksen not leaving is the chairman's fault?

The events of the summer before I agree that can be attributed and the lack of incomings you can definitely point the finger at the chairman but I'm failing to have that much sympathy for Poch because he could have managed the situation better.

This is it for me though, we're willing to give Levy the benefit of the doubt because certain situations unfold which he can do little about but those areas are still his responsibility and whether he can do anything about them or not they still contribute to the situation we find ourselves in. The same way that Poch has had situations unfold of which he has no control over but he still has to manage them because that's his responsibility but he isn't given the benefit of the doubt the same way. I'd just like to see either Levy held accountable the same way Poch is which is even if situations arise that are out of their control that they find a way to get the situations sorted regardless. Alternatively people cut Poch some slack, which isn't to say not to hold him accountable for the many mistakes he has made, absolutely not but just try and see how he isn't entirely responsible for the current situation.

 

[dondo]

View attachment 58099

Allo allo comedy gold? That’s a bit of a stretch ?

 

[cookiemonster]

No never 2x. We are much wealthier club than you think

13/14: Tottenham 216 Pool 306 (40%)
14/15: Tottenham 258 Pool 392 (50% and that's the highest gap since 08/09. FYI in 10/11 the gap was only 12%)

And how is all this relevant to modern era? Klopp came in Oct 2015 and started throwing cash in 2016-2017

There is another difference

Their fans want,no demand,that they challenge and win the big trophies

Ours are just happy to see nice pretty football

 

[Shadydan]

This is it for me though, we're willing to give Levy the benefit of the doubt because certain situations unfold which he can do little about but those areas are still his responsibility and whether he can do anything about them or not they still contribute to the situation we find ourselves in. The same way that Poch has had situations unfold of which he has no control over but he still has to manage them because that's his responsibility but he isn't given the benefit of the doubt the same way. I'd just like to see either Levy held accountable the same way Poch is which is even if situations arise that are out of their control that they find a way to get the situations sorted regardless. Alternatively people cut Poch some slack, which isn't to say not to hold him accountable for the many mistakes he has made, absolutely not but just try and see how he isn't entirely responsible for the current situation.

I look at things in context, what should Levy had done different in the Eriksen situation in that case then or Alderweireld? He has to take responsibility but what was the alternative solution?

I've given Poch a lot of leeway in his time here, I don't really blame him for our form at the end of last season, the injuries, the form, the stadium move, I don't even blame him for not quashing the Man Utd speculation and I understand why he now as he wanted to get assurances from Levy and backing in the summer which he got. In fact last season I always maintained that he performed miracles with the squad and overachieved. What I do blame him for is not picking the same team consistently, playing players who are not committed, contradicting himself in the pressers, signalling that he may leave after the CL final if we win etc... as I said he's not managed the situation very well.

Sometimes we are put in situations out of our control but it's how you manage them, Levy has backed Poch the best he could this summer, despite having some players still there that don't want to leave he provided Poch with his three main targets that much is clear so despite all that there is no way in a million years our team should be in the position it finds itself in now and I'm looking in Poch's direction as to why that is more than Levy's.

 

[Lighty64]

I have to agree that most of your arguments are good but the main problem are that they are always in isolation and fail to look at the big picture.

We have had a pretty easy schedule so far with several home and away games we should have gotten points from but have repeatedly failed to do so which turn these isolated events like the sheffield game into a pattern instead.
It's not bad luck that has made us win 1 away game since january, lose 3 games from leading positions in the final stages against lesser teams during this season or pick up an average of 1 point per game for the last 25, the least total amount of points of all clubs in the prem during 2019.
The players aren't running, shooting or moving as much as they used to. They are getting niggling injuries that often seem to be soft-tissue ones and their body language scream of low confidence and tiredness along with Poch's that scream discontent and he feels more and more like a man that has stopped trying.

Physique, mental health and motivation are closely connected and when the latter starts to wane so does the former.
I've spoken about it before but all the signs and murmurings from players and agents as well as looking at what happens on the pitch point to overtraining and players who might still respect the coach but no longer fully believe in him which in turn lead to players not getting the best out of themselves.

We are collectively bad right now and it's obvious it has not mattered who we play but it is rather how we play that will turn the ship around.

that's the big problem with so many people who watch football the word "SHOULD", after a game it counts on watching what actually happens, but before a ball is kicked SHOULD doesn't have any value. just because the bookies have a team favourite it doesn't mean that will happen.

I've not mentioned it about this season, but JJ is amongst and involved with the club, and he has mentioned the players are "SHOT" or in English knackered, most probably physically and mentally, and we also have players that have played this season and haven't shown an ounce of passion.

I have posted I think it's time for a change, but I'm sure Poch has quite a few backroom staff that goes at the same time. I also don't think any new manager will get anything out of the players that don't want to be here, though the 1's that do might do so. Yes Mourinho has a history of winning titles and trophies, but also has a history of upsetting players too, if the 5 that don't want to be here didn't change their attitude, and he upset any of the remaining 19 players we would be just as fucked

 

[Lighty64]

Mate utd played the night after and won this weekend it's the same bag for everyone in European competition, if you want to be part of the big boy set you deal and embrace it not winge about it.

I'm not saying it's the reason why, I'm just stating a fact and why it could have seen us struggle, Sheff Utd looked fresher and full of running. before this season we have seen us win games after European nights.

 

[ToDarrenIsToDo]

Yes Pool is bigger then us but not 2 times and not 50%; 20% difference in turnover cannot explain dramatic difference in risk tolerance.

I don't have the figures for 18/19 but the difference would be even smaller thanks to our CL run

Tottenham
Revenue (16/17) 358 EUR mln (of which 84 mln commercial)
Revenue (17/18): 428 EUR mln (117 commercial)
Insta followers (Fan base proxy): 1.6 (16/17); 3.4 (17/18)

Liverpool
Revenue (16/17) 424 EUR mln (162 mln commercial)
Revenue (17/18): 514 EUR mln (171 commercial)
Insta followers (Fan base proxy): 5.3 (16/17); 11.5 (17/18)

FYI Man Utd's revenue for 17/18 was EUR 670 mln, Citeh 570 mln, Chelsea 506

So by not knowing 18/19s numbers, the year Liverpool spent £1.2m and we committed to a potential obligation to pay £62m for Ndombele, £25m for Sessegnon, £10m for Clarke and c£55m for Lo Celso if we choose to take up the perm option (a total of roughly £152m) we really have a skewed view of current day numbers.

If we are to also assume that our revenue difference compared to Liverpools would be smaller because of our Champions League run, are we to also assume that the ground we made up on them financially making the final is automatically lost seeing as they went onto actually win the thing along with the Super Cup?

As we don't have the actual numbers and can only assume, let's add the growth that happened between 16/17-17/18 to last years and see of the transfer fees paid this year compared to Liverpools stand still in the market to see if we are being severely short changed or the club is spending well compared to its revenue made.

Tottenham
Revenue (16/17) 358 EUR mln (of which 84 mln commercial)
Revenue (17/18): 428 EUR mln (117 commercial)
Revenue (18/19): 498 EUR mln (150 commercial)
Insta followers (Fan base proxy): 1.6 (16/17); 3.4 (17/18); 5.2 (18/19)

Liverpool
Revenue (16/17) 424 EUR mln (162 mln commercial)
Revenue (17/18): 514 EUR mln (171 commercial)
Revenue (19/19): 604 EUR mln (180 commercial)
Insta followers (Fan base proxy): 5.3 (16/17); 11.5 (17/18); 17.7 (18/19)

If the Lo Celso deal becomes Perm like we all expect it will, Tottenham's last 3 windows have seen a spend of c£270m (£152m, £0m, £118m)

Liverpools spending on incoming players will be c£320m (£1m, £163m, £156m)

Assuming the 18/19 numbers flow similar to the two previous years, Liverpool have commmited to spending only £50m on quality coming in to the club in total across the 3 years, an average of just over £16.5m more each summer. With far superior revenue made and social media followers to their name, regardless of the speculative 18/19 numbers.

When analysing the here and now to not consider the outlay we have spent in a summer where Liverpool spent pretty much nothing, even if it's just speculative as accounts aren't out yet isn't fair. We both know your % will drastically come down based on goings on this summer, only thing altering yours from mine is Liverpool spent big last year, we chose to this year etc.

 

[wrd]

I look at things in context, what should Levy had done different in the Eriksen situation in that case then or Alderweireld? He has to take responsibility but what was the alternative solution?

I've given Poch a lot of leeway in his time here, I don't really blame him for our form at the end of last season, the injuries, the form, the stadium move, I don't even blame him for not quashing the Man Utd speculation and I understand why he now as he wanted to get assurances from Levy and backing in the summer which he got. In fact last season I always maintained that he performed miracles with the squad and overachieved. What I do blame him for is not picking the same team consistently, playing players who are not committed, contradicting himself in the pressers, signalling that he may leave after the CL final if we win etc... as I said he's not managed the situation very well.

Sometimes we are put in situations out of our control but it's how you manage them, Levy has backed Poch the best he could this summer, despite having some players still there that don't want to leave he provided Poch with his three main targets that much is clear so despite all that there is no way in a million years our team should be in the position it finds itself in now and I'm looking in Poch's direction as to why that is more than Levy's.

Yeah fair enough, I respect that view and don't disagree with any of it. I'm just of the opinion that the situation we have in-front of us was coming for a long time because of our failure in that original summer of 2018 which is why I'm giving Poch the benefit of the doubt but only to an extent because I think his own frustrations towards that situation have compounded us into 14th place with his mismanagement. I do think if Poch is playing russian roulette he only has a couple more goes until the Levy shaped bulley finally comes especially if we can't get some momentum over the next period because it's pretty straight forward but I'd like to see us get some momentum to get to Jan and then try and put things right rather than pull the trigger now. What I will say is I don't intend to argue with people to come over to my way of thinking about Poch because based on results and performances I think the majority of criticism is pretty valid but as I say because of the circumstances I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

One thing I'd add is that if Ornsteins information is correct then I could see us parting ways once we have played Bayern in the group stages which according to him would be what both Spurs and Bayern want so we'll see.

 

[skaz04nik]

We both know your % will drastically come down based on goings on this summer, only thing altering yours from mine is Liverpool spent big last year, we chose to this year etc.

My point was more about the risk appetite and related approach to business (reactive rather than proactive)

Liverpool has been proactive and taking higher risk than us
- in 2015/2016 they only finished 8th yet took a risk and spent heavily in summer (Mane, Karius, Wijnaldum etc). And they were lucky to get Matip for free
- in 2016/2017 they finished 4th and again made a huge summer spend (40 mln Ox, 40 mln Salah + smaller signings)
- after that they took a risk with a world record fee for a defender and goalie
- they also took a huge risk agreeing for Coutinho deal - despite the amount he was their best player at that time, much like Kane for us

I would say (considering player inflation etc) that the similar level of risk for us would be cca EUR 300 mln gross spend in 2 upcoming windows (winter and summer) to bring high quality players

But I have much doubt Levy will go for it.
So far we were only once in a race for a widely recognized top quality player (Dybala) and it ended n nothing for us

PS forgot to mention Pool wasn't in a situation when one of their best players is about to live for free