The Mauricio Pochettino thread

[beats1]

Get real. Our starting eleven and squad is not good enough to challenge for the title. Do you think players like Winks, Sissoko and Trippier, Aurier etc. would get much playtime in Liverpool and Manchester City? The answer is no. We have some good players, that's for sure. But our starting eleven is weaker than the likes of Liverpool and Man City. With better CM:s and and better WB:s we would challenge for the title.

Trippier and Aurier 100% would be in the liverpool team, they have literally no RB's and even then their first choice RB was a youth player they were willing to develop whereas we won't allow ours to go out on loan nor play meaningful minutes. Applying the same logic liverpool have no Striker, quality CB outside of Van Diyk and RB after getting rid of Clyne. You know our problems because you watch us week in week out but the teams around us have the same issue

The idea that that starting 11 is weaker than Liverpool and Man City is silly as well, there is a strong case we have a weaker squad. We have a first 11 that is amongst the best in the country. We currently have holes in CM and RB but the rest of the starting 11 is amazing.
Kane
Alli --- Eriksen --- Son
Dier -- Winks
Rose -- Vertonghen - Alderweireld -- Trippier
Lloris

Now outside of Trippier and Winks, also potentially Dier, that is a great first 11.

Players good enough for the starting XI of a title winning team:

Vertonghen, Alderweireld, Eriksen, Son, Dele, Kane. 6 players

Players good enough for a top 4 finish:

Lloris, Rose, Dier. 3 players

Decent squad players:

Gazzaniga, Aurier, Trippier, Walker-Peters, Davies, Sanchez, Foyth, Wanyama, Skipp, Winks, Sissoko, Lucas, Lamela, Llorente 14+ Players

When you consider that we lost Dembele & Walker, 2 clearly good enough for a title challenging team and have replaced their positions in the squad with players that realistically you would regard as decent squad players for a top 4 team it's clear that the quality levels for the first team are hampered by players that have backup qualities.

We currently have 6 top footballers, 3 that can hold their own and the rest that are of second string quality, meaning that in every match day we have at the very least 2 players starting who should be backup, most notably in the right back and central midfield areas.

Here is where we come up short, we have a squad too top heavy with decent squad level quality, a few that hold their own and half a dozen top players that do the dirty work. When they ain't on song the others simply don't have it in them to muster what it takes.

We have many young players that are decent who have room to grow but not enough quality surrounding the other positions. We have one player like Eriksen, have fallen back on a midfield consisting of Winks & Sissoko when before we had Wanyama & Dembele and have half the quality on the right side of our defence.

The quality we had is still there in large parts, but there is a weak underbelly that, due to injuries has slowly seeped into our first XI this season.

14 players in a 25 man squad that, let's be honest we wouldn't miss if they were sold tells you all about the class difference from the magical to the mediocre. If Poch is serious about this club, which he should be because it is a great club he needs to turn at least 5 of those decent squad positions into new signings that can more than hold their own in the top 4 or a title charge.

Do you apply the same logic to the squads of Liverpool, United and Arsenal.

There is this bullshit idea that on this forum, that you need players of a high standard that are of top 4 quality to deserved of the position. Yet other teams are littered with players who aren't exactly of that standard.

Liverpool: Mignolet, Kellher, Lovren, Gomez, Moreno, Milner(solid player but a level below Rose imo at his age), TAA, Wijnaldum, Shaqiri, Chamberlain, Lallana, Origi, Sturridge - 13 players

Arsenal: Cech, Holding, Lichtsteiner, Maitland-Niles, Xhaka, Mustafi, Lucas, Sokratis, Elneny, SHIT MOST OF THEIR FUCKING SQUAD Only PEA, Lacazette, Leno(me being kind), Ozil(me being kind), Kosceilny, Bellerin and Mkhitaryen, are even possibly considered of being decent and I rather have some of our scrubs than their star players. Actually if their manager gets 3rd place, he should get manager of the year lol.

Man Utd: Lindelof, Jones, Smalling, Mata, Grant, Lingaard, Perira, Rojo, Fred, Young, dalot, Herrera, Shaw, Valencia, Romero, Fellaini, Darmain - 17 players.

The point is, we are about the same level Liverpool maybe slight below but every squad has holes, so that can't be used as an excuse. The fact we didn't spend anything doesn't negate the fact, that we didnt make it worse either(except the dembele transfer).

Liverpool's CB's options: Van Diyk, Matip, Lovren, Gomez
Liverpool's RB options: TAA, Gomez then milner
Liverpools Strikers: Sturridge, Origi and an out of position Firmino(who plays a false 9)

We have these holes in our squads but so do the teams around us, so that cant be always used as an excuse. Liverpool fans are criticising Klopp for getting rid of Clyne on loan when they have no RB at the moment.

 

[wrd]

So Kane comes back and starts scoring immediately. Son is clearly burned out and his form has fallen off a cliff. So are you suggesting Poch should've started Llorente over Kane? Or someone else?

I'd say vs Burnley I wanted Llorente to start with Son in the same way we lined up vs Leicester. I'd say it's a bit of hindsight when it comes to Son being burnt out because he did well vs Leicester and then had 10 days rest. I thought Kane off the bench would have been more appropriate. Especially with Chelsea coming up, I thought it was crazy to give Kane 2 starts in quick succession coming back from injury. I wanted him to get a good 30 vs Burnley and then Start vs Chelsea.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

To be fair I dont think Daniel Levy expected 3 straight seasons of CL football before moving stadium. I think his inital goal was to build us up into a CL side by the time we enter the new stadium. We're actually ahead of schedule. I doubt it will cost Poch if we miss out this season. Besides if anything he achieved his goal considering we were meant to move into the stadium in Sep. The delay in the stadium has definitely set us back and Poch can't be blamed for that.

But this "plan" we are "ahead" of, if it even existed in the sense that is constantly broadcasted on SC, was made five years ago. How long is a "plan" valid and the only yardstick by which to measure success? Surely 5 years later, there must be a new "plan" that we can compare ourselves too. Nobody uses an outdated plan for constant verification that a project is going so weeelll. There is an expiry date on these things, and that becomes more important as it becomes clear that the map that was used as grounds for the "plan" didn't in fact survey the land properly. If the land and the map don't align, what's most likely wrong? The map? Or the land? And let's say they did make that "plan", and we outperformed it to such a degree, well then one could argue that the "plan" was flawed and to little ambitious in the first place, and so is null and void.
Forget about "the plan". On thing for sure, the "plan" never said "let's fetch one point in four consecutive matches and maybe lose out on top 4" – I can guarantee you that.

 

[mpickard2087]

Don't you think the lack of that goes back to the lack of pre season and the fact our squad is palpably not fit to play the high energy style? We've been managing games all season, we just don't have the legs to press.

I don't know how long you can use the pre-season excuse. You might expect a sluggish start and for it to be a hard autumn, and there are a lot of games in the season being in four competitions, but at some point I'd expect any (re)conditioning work to have taken place - especially when a number of players have had an injury break and a potential opportunity to do some extra work before coming back into the fray.....

But lets take that as a given, that we're not in a state to play our preferred style, you adapt surely? We seem to be stuck doing a little of nothing. If you don't put pressure on the ball, get in behind it as a disciplined shape (eg. two banks of four) and be hard to break down and then counter. Instead we set everything up very narrow and Poch seems to have decided we'll just let it be open as possible and often have three players lazily stood up front waiting for us to get the ball back and release them. Some, most, weeks we might get away with that but a) it puts a fuck ton of pressure on the 6/7 players doing any defending, b) we will give up chances being so open, c) teams start to work out where they can get at you and d) with this approach, as we saw countless times with 'old Tottenham' teams you will turn up on plenty of days and end up suffering comedy defeats.

There have been enough warning signs, even in games like the 6-2 vs. Everton and 5-0 vs. Bournemouth we were lucky not to concede multiple goals being so open. Largely the team has had enough battling qualities to get results on the board but I've never thought you can keep playing in this open way, especially if you're not a team with extraordinary individual quality and star power, and as we used to see under Redknapp when you hit a bad patch of form/confidence all of a sudden the bad results seem to spiral.

Edit: What we need for the rest of the season is to select eleven players who can put in a shift - whether that's high pressing or whatever tactic employed. It's no good having Dier stuck in the backline after 30 minutes because he's fucked. Or Dele statuesque after 40 minutes. Or Kane breaking into a trot every so often when he feels like it, even if he is good enough to pop up with a goal every game. Or others dipping in and out and switching off. It's not beating the bottom teams of the league currently this approach with multiple people not putting in enough work, let alone ones we hope we could beat. A big response is needed as a collective and we need to work for 90 minutes to hopefully get games won.

 

[JonnySpurs]

I feel as though this 3 week break couldn't be coming at a better time. This last little chunk of the season is now hugely important so what better way to go into it than having been made fully aware of the punishment for being complacent by losing to Saints.

Had we beaten Saints then I'd have wanted us playing again quickly afterwards to build momentum. Don't get me wrong, losing isn't a good thing but it's often the best teacher.

When we hammered Dortmund we then had 10 days off and it was the worst thing for us IMO. We went into that break feeling all pleased with ourselves, lost our focus and didn't perform against a gritty, hard working Burnley team. Had we played them 3 days after BD then I believe we'd have beaten them. We then dropped individual errors vs Chelsea and lost. We then put on a better performance against Arsenal, beat Dortmund away and had a good 1st half vs Saints. We've then just assumed we'd roll Saints over in the 2nd half and got sloppy.

I like the fact that our players/coaches now have to stew over this defeat and feel annoyed at themselves. By the time it gets to the Liverpool game our players will be largely rested and should be feeling anxious to get back on the pitch and go after it. Hopefully we can put on performance up there and take some sort of result.

We'll then have 2 really winnable games, in the new stadium, against Brighton/Palace and Huddersfield before City away. There's a chance to build some real momentum before closing out at home vs West Ham, away to Bournemouth & home vs Everton. There's no reason why we can't still finish top 4 so let's be positive. Whatever happens, next season is gonna be special. We'll invest in new players in the summer, have a proper pre-season and be buzzed to be back home again, whether we're in the CL or not.

 

[midoshairband]

I did bring it back round to positivity in the end though...



I don’t disagree, during this recent spell especially, but I feel like he kind of got the hard part right (6 weeks of no Dele or Kane) and the easy part wrong, and that has cost us a bit.

I still fully believe he’s got far more right than wrong this season, I just think that he’s got more wrong than usual and that this has been compounded by other issues out of his control.

Like I say, it’s still very much in our hands, we are still 3rd and still will be come the Liverpool game, by which point he’s hopefully going to have a fully fit squad, 1 week of training with them and 3 weeks to have gathered his thoughts. I’d not bet against him pulling something out of the bag.

re: the injury crisis. the way i see it, the players went ‘oh fuck, no kane, no dele, we need to step up here’. and they did.

unfortunately the same players seem to have gone ‘ahh Kane and Dele back, they’ll take it from here’.

 

[Japhet]

But this "plan" we are "ahead" of, if it even existed in the sense that is constantly broadcasted on SC, was made five years ago. How long is a "plan" valid and the only yardstick by which to measure success? Surely 5 years later, there must be a new "plan" that we can compare ourselves too. Nobody uses an outdated plan for constant verification that a project is going so weeelll. There is an expiry date on these things, and that becomes more important as it becomes clear that the map that was used as grounds for the "plan" didn't in fact survey the land properly. If the land and the map don't align, what's most likely wrong? The map? Or the land? And let's say they did make that "plan", and we outperformed it to such a degree, well then one could argue that the "plan" was flawed and to little ambitious in the first place, and so is null and void.
Forget about "the plan". On thing for sure, the "plan" never said "let's fetch one point in four consecutive matches and maybe lose out on top 4" – I can guarantee you that.

IMO the 'plan' has been rather derailed by our success. We're now paying our top players handsomely because they have proved their worth in the EPL and the CL and we have to try to hang onto them. At the same time we've run into a massive overspend on the projected stadium development and our transfer strategy has been undermined. We are victims of our own success and there is a gulf between our top players and the squad fillers which is all to evident when we need bodies. We've also had a very bad injury run which isn't surprising given the summer exploits of so many of our players, but Poch apparently decided to hang fire on more squad fillers in favour of waiting for quality reinforcements. I think that was a mistake personally but I don't know the financial constraints we're under. We may not like where we are at this precise moment but I can fully understand why it's happened.

 

[Seafordian Spurs]

I feel as though this 3 week break couldn't be coming at a better time. This last little chunk of the season is now hugely important so what better way to go into it than having been made fully aware of the punishment for being complacent by losing to Saints.

Had we beaten Saints then I'd have wanted us playing again quickly afterwards to build momentum. Don't get me wrong, losing isn't a good thing but it's often the best teacher.

When we hammered Dortmund we then had 10 days off and it was the worst thing for us IMO. We went into that break feeling all pleased with ourselves, lost our focus and didn't perform against a gritty, hard working Burnley team. Had we played them 3 days after BD then I believe we'd have beaten them. We then dropped individual errors vs Chelsea and lost. We then put on a better performance against Arsenal, beat Dortmund away and had a good 1st half vs Saints. We've then just assumed we'd roll Saints over in the 2nd half and got sloppy.

I like the fact that our players/coaches now have to stew over this defeat and feel annoyed at themselves. By the time it gets to the Liverpool game our players will be largely rested and should be feeling anxious to get back on the pitch and go after it. Hopefully we can put on performance up there and take some sort of result.

We'll then have 2 really winnable games, in the new stadium, against Brighton/Palace and Huddersfield before City away. There's a chance to build some real momentum before closing out at home vs West Ham, away to Bournemouth & home vs Everton. There's no reason why we can't still finish top 4 so let's be positive. Whatever happens, next season is gonna be special. We'll invest in new players in the summer, have a proper pre-season and be buzzed to be back home again, whether we're in the CL or not.

Oh man. I like you.

 

[Bobbins]

I hope you're all correct, but if we finish outside of the Top 4 at the end of the season my opinion is that you'll be proved wrong.

Poch has said on a number of occasions that he was brought in to secure CL football in the first season, in the new stadium. If this doesn't happen, Levy's bottom-line will be severely effected.

Added to that, the nature of not finishing in the Top 4 would involve an end of season collapse. This would give Levy more reason to pull the trigger. He's done it before with Redknapp, but this time the stakes are higher with a stadium to pay for and naming rights to secure.

And finally, if the rumours are true of Poch refusing to sign players that are offered to him, Levy may also be hacked off with that; he'll be asking the question "Has this cost us CL football?".

Just my opinion, obviously, but this is the way I see it playing out.

On a separate note...

Levy needs to take a long hard look at himself, because when we've been in a position of strength over the years, we've never once doubled-down in the transfer market, to really 'go for it' and seriously challenge for a title.

Like I said before, very frustrating.

That’s just not going to happen.

Quite apart from Levy knowing full well he won’t get a better manager than Poch in, quite apart from the fact that they have a great relationship, Poch is also signed up to a massive contract - if he’s sacked Levy will owe him an absolutely enormous payoff, one he won’t be willing to countenance with the financial situation as it is.

He’s just not going to sack him unless we literally lose every game between now and the end of the season and Poch loses the dressing room.

 

[mil1lion]

But this "plan" we are "ahead" of, if it even existed in the sense that is constantly broadcasted on SC, was made five years ago. How long is a "plan" valid and the only yardstick by which to measure success? Surely 5 years later, there must be a new "plan" that we can compare ourselves too. Nobody uses an outdated plan for constant verification that a project is going so weeelll. There is an expiry date on these things, and that becomes more important as it becomes clear that the map that was used as grounds for the "plan" didn't in fact survey the land properly. If the land and the map don't align, what's most likely wrong? The map? Or the land? And let's say they did make that "plan", and we outperformed it to such a degree, well then one could argue that the "plan" was flawed and to little ambitious in the first place, and so is null and void.
Forget about "the plan". On thing for sure, the "plan" never said "let's fetch one point in four consecutive matches and maybe lose out on top 4" – I can guarantee you that.

I do agree that the plan would change in time but to be honest I'm not sure it will have changed much. The next step will be made once we've moved into the stadium. It just feels to me that we've reached our intial goal under Poch earlier than expected but maintained it since. In the time since Poch arrived the top 4 has now become the top 6. So the fact that he has kept us in the top 4 until now has to be considered an achievement. We're punching above our weight and have been for a little while now. I think people underestimate how long term our plans are. We're not trying to be a one season wonder like Leicester. We've been building from the ground up to sustain a solid foundation over a period of years.

I think your last sentence is typical of how current form dictates what peoples views are in the current moment. A few weeks ago people were probably worried Poch would leave us for a Madrid or Utd. Now we've hit a bad run of form and suddenly people are questioning whether we would be better off without him. I can asure you that this run of results will not affect our overall project and Levy is not that short sighted. I think maybe people underestimate how long it will take to make the next step. We're yet to play our first game at the new stadium and we're still eager for us to be title contenders already. We're not a wealthy club like City or Chelsea, we're not as big as Liverpool or Utd, we're only now moving into our new stadium when Arsenal moved into theirs in 2006.

It just seems to me that because we finished 3rd that people think it's simply a matter of pushing on one bit further to win the title. The truth is that we've hit our limit at this point in time. We've maximized what a club our size can achieve in the most competitive league in the world. We're still very much the underdogs going up against the other 5. I think Poch is right to feel this is as far as the squad can go because it's the same squad for 2 years. Daniel Levy will need to decide whether he's happy to remain in that top 6 and overachieving. Or whether he wants to push on now and make us genuine title contenders. It's not exactly easy though given that there's another 5 big clubs with those ambitions too.

 

[mil1lion]

I'm not saying Kane is the reason we are struggling, I'm just talking about how he automatically puts players back in despite the squad having a good run of results, there was the possibility there to ease him back in and I see that as an example of Poch having his favourites who he doesn't sub or leave on bench no matter the circumstances.

I think Kane decides if he wants to start to be honest. He's our top player, our vice captain and we will want to keep him happy. It's not too unlike the situation with Messi at Barcelona. If he wants to start he will. To be fair though he has looked sharper than he did last time he returned. Not at his best but still better over 90 minutes than Llorente or Moura. If we didn't start Kane and dropped points then Poch would be criticised for that too. It's a bit of a freak that we've hit such bad form on Kanes return yet he's been our only scorer for 5 games. I just don't understand what has happened to Son.

 

[Spurs 1961]

The stadium is the massive 'elephant in the room'. It is so necessary for our future to become more competitive with the five clubs who for all our riches have more financial clout than we do. But of course it also is in the medium term a drain on our finances, resources, energy etc. Poch has I believe made it clear that now we have reached a landmark of achieving initial goals on and off the pitch that instead of sitting back we need to push again to take us to the next level. This means on the financial side tying up great deals with sponsors etc., it also means being prepared to gamble on buying top players with the higher costs and higher risks associated with that.

We hold our breath and wait to see what happens now. In the best case scenario the opening of the new stadium brings into play another level of sponsorship and interest worldwide so securing the finances to re-shape the way we do things with transfers and contracts. Then of course I am an optimist

 

[marion52]

Everyone keeps mentioning this ‘3 week break’! It’s a break from Spurs maybe but most of them will be playing for their countries so no rest. Not sure it will do us any good, the best thing would have been another game this week - maybe!?

 

[seppo]

Zidane all but confirmed for a Real Madrid return. Never worried me...

 

[John48]

Zidane all but confirmed for a Real Madrid return. Never worried me...

Is that permanent or short term?

 

[cjbyid]

Is that permanent or short term?

Permanent I'd imagine. Can't see him going back for 3 months when they have nothing at all to play for.

 

[seppo]

Is that permanent or short term?

Permanent for sure. It also basically means Hazard is going to Real in the summer. Tier 1 sources have said before that Zidane wanted Hazard for several years and I would imagine that that, at a minimum, was one of the conditions to go back again. I'd also imagine that would mean Bale is off.

 

[thebenjamin]

That would be an absolute result.

 

[Ribble]

I'd also imagine that would mean Bale is off.

I'll pack Levy's bag, you book him the flights to Madrid

 

[thebenjamin]

It means Bale out. Hazard in. But also sadly probably Eriksen in, as Zidane apparently was the one driving that deal, hence why it seems to have cooled since he left.