The England Thread

[tommo84]

Am I missing what this change is meant to represent? Doesn't really 'signal' anything to me beyond the designer thought that a red cross looked a bit boring.

Yeah Chris Sutton’s rant about it was actually quite on the money. He was basically more annoyed at the pointlessness of it all than the change itself. And I think that’s where I land. Why mess with it? Surely nobody thought, “Yeah everyone is going to love this obscure change to an age-old symbol of patriotism on a national shirt which nobody will understand so we’re going to half-explain it with marketing waffle about unity and inspiration - those things that a nation’s flag when left completely unaltered are usually used to conjure”.

I’m baffled by it. The possibly insulting element is that I cannot imagine Nike would do this with most other countries’ national flags (which lends itself to the point others made about this being a further erosion of St George’s Cross as a positive symbol of national identity) but I’m sure it’s not unprecedented. But why pick the fight? And why did the FA not look at this and, at the very least, think ‘ehhh - prob best to leave the cross as it is. Might upset people to change it’.

As Chris Sutton said yesterday, it’s all bollocks.

 

[IfiHadTheWings]

Never seen this much attention to being patriotic when it comes to St George's Day.

It's quite funny actually. Nobody cares about international football but they care about the shirt.. It doesn't change your life in the slightest does it? It's hardly burning the cross. It's a colour change on one shirt. That's it.

As i said it doesn't bother me but it does to some people.

People do care about international football and people do care about their country...we cannot tell people what they can and can't be pissed off with even if we think it's over the top.

 

[IfiHadTheWings]

Yeah Chris Sutton’s rant about it was actually quite on the money. He was basically more annoyed at the pointlessness of it all than the change itself. And I think that’s where I land. Why mess with it? Surely nobody thought, “Yeah everyone is going to love this obscure change to an age-old symbol of patriotism on a national shirt which nobody will understand so we’re going to half-explain it with marketing waffle about unity and inspiration - those things that a nation’s flag when left completely unaltered are usually used to conjure”.

I’m baffled by it. The possibly insulting element is that I cannot imagine Nike would do this with most other countries’ national flags (which lends itself to the point others made about this being a further erosion of St George’s Cross as a positive symbol of national identity) but I’m sure it’s not unprecedented. But why pick the fight? And why did the FA not look at this and, at the very least, think ‘ehhh - prob best to leave the cross as it is. Might upset people to change it’.

As Chris Sutton said yesterday, it’s all bollocks.

This is pretty much it.

it is a load of bollox, an unnecessary change with no meaning behind it.

 

[easley91]

As i said it doesn't bother me but it does to some people.

People do care about international football and people do care about their country...we cannot tell people what they can and can't be pissed off with even if we think it's over the top.

My problem isn't the outrage, it's the fact they don't care about being this patriotic all year round. You'll see plenty of non Irish folk live up to St Patrick's, but come April 23rd? Barely a peep. It's a cross on the back of a shirt that barely anyone is going to see, and at those prices likely won't buy any way.

Win the Euros and all this will be forgotten as it'll be the kit we won it in.

 

[Wig]

Am I missing what this change is meant to represent? Doesn't really 'signal' anything to me beyond the designer thought that a red cross looked a bit boring.

Some might see it as slightly rainbow-ing the flag, a virtue signalling much like the rainbow armbands. However I think you're right that it doesn't really signal anything, which is exactly what makes the crucial point here - why fuck with something so emotive as a national flag, a fixed historic emblem, for no significant reason? Sure they can have artistic licence with the rest of the shirt, just don't mess with the flag.

It's a misguided decision by Nike and the FA. For some people it will be a deal breaker to not buy the shirt, and considering many would be umming and ahhing about parting with £125 to buy it anyway, it makes an easier decision.

 

[tommo84]

Never seen this much attention to being patriotic when it comes to St George's Day.

It's quite funny actually. Nobody cares about international football but they care about the shirt.. It doesn't change your life in the slightest does it? It's hardly burning the cross. It's a colour change on one shirt. That's it.

Don’t agree with your first comment. For many years lots of people questioned why the day of our patron saint wasn’t a national holiday. Eventually that chatter died down but over time as people who are passionate about something lose the bigger arguments and feel increasingly marginalised, the smaller things they still hold become of greater significance to them. Someone else said it, for many this overtly trivial thing is the straw that breaks the camel’s back. And while I don’t feel strongly about, I absolutely get that.

 

[Rocksuperstar]

All they need to do is put out a statement saying, "It's not intended to be the St George's Cross, if it was then we would obviously respect the flag and it would be red on a white background. It is a stylized cross design, intended as nothing more than a decoration, inspired loosely by the design of the flag" - then ignore every email and complaint.

"Life of Brian is about Jesus and it's blasphemous!", "It's not about Jesus, he's actually in the film, this is about a man called Brian who...", "IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE JESUS!"

It's not the flag, it's not intended to be or replace the flag, or to offend anyone, it's just a design choice.

Even if it was, same applies: Get over it.

 

[kmk]

 

[Dave1882]

I consider myself a patriotic English man...what Nike and possibly the FA i think have mis-calculated. Is that top level sport is one of the few places its seems socially acceptable to be able to be proud of being English, with the kit/flag being the symbolism of that. The 'fun flag' could have been stuck on the training gear instead of the home kit, which is the physical representation of the country.
I find it all a bit sad. My wife is Irish and so my kids are 50/50 English to Irish. They can celebrate St Patricks day and its normalised, yet theres a stigma to St Georges day. It would be nice to be able to be proud of our country and not be pulled down by any past associations. I hope one day we get to that stage

 

[UncleBuck]

I took a punt about four weeks ago on what is now soccer04, white one turned up today and it’s great, especially for £11, not so sure about the small fold down collar though.
They’ve finally decided to do kids spurs tracksuits as well for £20, highly recommended!

Seeing how the St George’s cross on the back of the collar has now become such a national emergency that we need the leader of the opposition to comment on it I’ve just checked my lads shirt that came through and it’s even got the red and blue cross on it.
I didn’t even noticed it when I checked it yesterday!

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

I am pretty woke - but, yeah I think this was a mistake by Nike for the home shirt.

I would hope they would not take the US flag and change the red and white stripes to rainbow.

If they wanted - maybe make a special kit that is sold separately with something like rainbow numbers/lettering.

 

[IfiHadTheWings]

I am pretty woke - but, yeah I think this was a mistake by Nike for the home shirt.

I would hope they would not take the US flag and change the red and white stripes to rainbow.

If they wanted - maybe make a special kit that is sold separately with something like rainbow numbers/lettering.

Yeah i don't think you need to be a "raving flag shagger" to know that it isn't on and would anger people.

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

I also wonder who signed off on the design. I don't think this was something Nike would have done without running it by someone first. But, who knows.

 

[Dougal]

How the uproar isn’t over the price, I’ll never know.

 

[Marty]

How the uproar isn’t over the price, I’ll never know.

Nobody buys "elite" shirts, surely? What's the point?

The replica shirts are bloody expensive too, mind.

 

[Dave1882]

I also wonder who signed off on the design. I don't think this was something Nike would have done without running it by someone first. But, who knows.

You'd assume theres a committee between supplier and FA. I always think that home shirts should be sacrosanct at international and club level...away/training kits are where can play around a bit. Powers that be have mis-judged this one and certain media has predictably jumped on it. Storm in a tea cup, hopefully lessons can be learnt and maybe it breeds a wider conversation into having a bit of pride and positive nationalism for England in general

 

[tobi]

Those that disapprove about this must also feel some type of way that an English company did this first right?

They had the nerve to put several different coloured crosses on the back of the shirt.

 

[Dougal]

Nobody buys "elite" shirts, surely? What's the point?

The replica shirts are bloody expensive too, mind.

I meant the ‘stadium’ ones. Absolutely no respect for fans. My kids get one kit when they grow out of the last one at most. But at the rate they grow that’ll stop as well. Thankfully they’re not overly bothered by these things. God help parents whose kids follow this closely.

 

[PCozzie]

Is this 'alternative' flag something that Nike have done for other countries? Genuine question. They must supply kits to a fair few national teams and I'm wondering whether they've decided that they're going to change the flag colours/design on all of their national kits this year.

 

[teok]

I'm just ignoring all the peripheral stuff and looking forward to seeing England vs Brazil. It still has the magic for me (probably just because it's quite rare, but even so).