The Deadline Day ITK Discussion Thread - 1st September

[mattspur1986]

Ange isn’t happy about the CB situation (and that was while we had Dav). “Raging” is the quote we had. I suspect there’s some hyperbole there but it’s still Levy up to his old tricks.

Same way we were told Conte was unhappy with players being forced on him and you know how that turned out…

the bloke is an absolute weapon!

 

[nicdic]

I don't think you need ITK to be concerned about Ange being unhappy transfers. I think this is easier to explain that we're doing well.

We had Poch, he became unhappy with transfer dealings with the club. He Spoke about it, he then lost that energy he had, his relationship with the squad deteriated and he was sacked.

We had Jose, he came in with a lot of enthusiasm and energy. He was unhappy with the club, I can't remember the specifics to say objectively it was transfers, he did speak about Levy and about Transfers but he lost his energy, went into himself, fell out with the players and he was sacked.

We Had Conte who, whether you appreciate his style or not, he came in and did the job didn't he? He was then unhappy with the transfers, lost his energy, fell out with board, fell out with team and he was sacked.

Now we can get side tracked about extenuating factors in each case, we can squabble over being the right fit for the club and this and that. Personally I think that's pointless, the key point is, there has been a pattern of manager, disillusion with the club, falling out team team, results falling off a cliff and manager sacked. You do not need any ITK to see that and so it is perfectly reasonable, in my opinion for people to be concerned with Ange being unhappy when he has given us what we've been craving recently, which is hope. Hope that we might actually still have a chance of seeing our team do something.

My feelings regarding hiring Conte and Jose are, we knew who they were, they are people who like to be in control and they want the variables to be picked by them because they believe it's their best chance to succeed. Levy is the same, the clash was obvious, I think we all hoped that Levy being in awe of these managers would cede control, he didn't. I think then, if the fans aren't willing to stop buying tickets and memberships, is to accept the Levy of it all and thankfully Levy himself has, he hired a manager who fits who he is a lot better.

What we have to be aware of though is, Ange is a human being, he is a human being who will be judged harshly by Spurs fans if and when thing's go wrong. We've already seen an overreaction in the cup. Our fans seemingly want to avoid any discomfort, whilst simultaneously getting over excited by any rays of light. My opinion is temper them so excitement stays at hope and not expectation. However to get back to my point of Ange being a human who will be judged. It is human nature to want to control as many variables as possible when it is you, your reputation, your job on the line. There will be a point where the tension will hit, either through difficulty (as with Jose, Conte) or through us being close to getting an achievement over the line (As with Poch) where Ange will want control over the variables, most likely personnel. If Levy does not cede in that moment, regardless of what the decision is and what we think (such as not rating Adama Traore or signing Zaniolo), Ange will go the way of the other managers in his enthusiasm.

As far as I can remember, didn't Poch's comments about the transfers come in the summer after the CL final, where he was backed hugely in the transfer market? When we hadn't signed anyone, I'm sure I remember him being understanding and explaining why it had happened. I think he lost his energy and enthusiasm because he was convinced the universe had us winning the CL, and he didn't know how to deal with it not happening. But all that's in the past.

 

[BPR_U16]

Would be the biggest own goal .

and yet it came to pass!

Levy really can infuriate

 

[SirHarryHotspur]

So much doom and gloom over the CB's or lack off, we have two back ups in Davies and Dier who have a wealth of PL experience.
Phillips is an unknown quantity but has made the bench and at 18 has gone straight into the 1st team squad so must be rated. If we get an injury or suspension sure Ange can tweak things to compensate.

If some don't fancy Davies as LCB then maybe Udogie can do a job at LCB if anything does happen to VDV, Davies can adequately fill the left back position he did brilliantly when he came on against Manure.
Cheer up everybody , be positive.

 

[KaribYid]

As far as I can remember, didn't Poch's comments about the transfers come in the summer after the CL final, where he was backed hugely in the transfer market? When we hadn't signed anyone, I'm sure I remember him being understanding and explaining why it had happened. I think he lost his energy and enthusiasm because he was convinced the universe had us winning the CL, and he didn't know how to deal with it not happening. But all that's in the past.

It is, but that doesn't mean that we should re-write it to suit our narratives.

Pochettino's comments came prior to the summer window (and CL final) on 2 May 2019. That window we signed three (3) players for 125m after going 18 months without signing anyone. I agree that he was backed in as much as those three players were clearly his preferred targets but I'm not sure I'd classify signing three players being backed "hugely" especially in the context that we didn't sign anyone in the two windows preceding.

Also, I'm not quite sure he was "understanding" when we didn't sign anyone. After the second window of not signing anyone (winter 2019), he was , in his words "disappointed" that we didn't add quality to the squad:

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...enham-are-not-equipped-to-fight-for-the-title

When has any manager anywhere got all the business they want done, done in a single window without some level of compromise somewhere?

Or when does a manager feel the squad is complete and no longer needs work? They don't right, there are always improvements you can make.

Ange would have liked another centre back, as would we all, but it doesn't make Sanchez and Davies not good enough at all.

Given, as you've stated that a manager never feels like the squad is complete, do you think that he was really "understanding" with not making a single improvement to his squad or is it more likely that he's not the abrasive, confrontational character Conte is and would rather (rightly) try to keep the club and fans unified?

As you said, it's all in the past but let's not use the passage of time to change the story of what actually happened.

 

[nicdic]

It is, but that doesn't mean that we should re-write it to suit our narratives.

Pochettino's comments came prior to the summer window (and CL final) on 2 May 2019. That window we signed three (3) players for 125m after going 18 months without signing anyone. I agree that he was backed in as much as those three players were clearly his preferred targets but I'm not sure I'd classify signing three players being backed "hugely" especially in the context that we didn't sign anyone in the two windows preceding.

Also, I'm not quite sure he was "understanding" when we didn't sign anyone. After the second window of not signing anyone (winter 2019), he was , in his words "disappointed" that we didn't add quality to the squad:

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...enham-are-not-equipped-to-fight-for-the-title




Given, as you've stated that a manager never feels like the squad is complete, do you think that he was really "understanding" with not making a single improvement to his squad or is it more likely that he's not the abrasive, confrontational character Conte is and would rather (rightly) try to keep the club and fans unified?

As you said, it's all in the past but let's not use the passage of time to change the story of what actually happened.

I think it is fair to say hugely backed, yes of course there is the background of a year without spending, but even still, we bought two players that smashed our previous transfer record. That was seriously big spending for us. Regardless of context. He wasn't backed properly before then, but let's not pretend that the year with no signings was all down to Levy, Poch was notoriously difficult and picky, refusing players etc.

I'm not trying to re-write anything according to my narratives. I loved Poch, was fully behind him, was seriously pissed off that we didn't buy players for him, but there was also a very real context for what happened, and Poch's own influence there.

If anyone is re-writing the truth to fit a narrative, it's you.

 

[Guernman]

I think it is fair to say hugely backed, yes of course there is the background of a year without spending, but even still, we bought two players that smashed our previous transfer record. That was seriously big spending for us. Regardless of context. He wasn't backed properly before then, but let's not pretend that the year with no signings was all down to Levy, Poch was notoriously difficult and picky, refusing players etc.

I'm not trying to re-write anything according to my narratives. I loved Poch, was fully behind him, was seriously pissed off that we didn't buy players for him, but there was also a very real context for what happened, and Poch's own influence there.

If anyone is re-writing the truth to fit a narrative, it's you.

I agree. There is no way that Levy didn't want to buy any players during the previous summer. I suspect that Levy is a bit of a nightmare to deal with as a manager and will always be looking for a compromise here, and wonderful deal there, and will always be complicating negotiations for the players you want.

I suspect Poch dug his heals in that summer and was simply more stubborn than other managers had ever been. If we don't get the specific players I want then I don't want any of your alternatives. It was hugely embarrasing that we ended up being the only PL team, I think ever, to do no business in a summer window.

For what it was worth, it did achieve what Pochettino hoped, that the next summer we really went for his targets. Problem was they were Ndombele and Lo Celso, the combination of which probably ensured that Levy will never do this again and we are back to square one.

 

[nicdic]

I agree. There is no way that Levy didn't want to buy any players during the previous summer. I suspect that Levy is a bit of a nightmare to deal with as a manager and will always be looking for a compromise here, and wonderful deal there, and will always be complicating negotiations for the players you want.

I suspect Poch dug his heals in that summer and was simply more stubborn than other managers had ever been. If we don't get the specific players I want then I don't want any of your alternatives. It was hugely embarrasing that we ended up being the only PL team, I think ever, do to no business in a summer window.

For what it was worth, it did achieve what Pochettino hoped, that the next summer we really went for his targets. Problem was they were Ndombele and Lo Celso, the combination of which probably ensured that Levy will never do this again and we are back to square one.

And Jack Clarke and Ryan Sessegnon. Four players who have contributed the sum total of how much for us since then?

 

[Rob]

And Jack Clarke and Ryan Sessegnon. Four players who have contributed the sum total of how much for us since then?

Both "Levy" signings, not sure that helps your point!

 

[nicdic]

Both "Levy" signings, not sure that helps your point!

All the spurs journos said that window those were his top four targets, that's all I'm basing it on.

 

[Joshua]

So much doom and gloom over the CB's or lack off, we have two back ups in Davies and Dier who have a wealth of PL experience.
Phillips is an unknown quantity but has made the bench and at 18 has gone straight into the 1st team squad so must be rated. If we get an injury or suspension sure Ange can tweak things to compensate.

If some don't fancy Davies as LCB then maybe Udogie can do a job at LCB if anything does happen to VDV, Davies can adequately fill the left back position he did brilliantly when he came on against Manure.
Cheer up everybody , be positive.

Dier’s not involved mate. I think we’ll cope until Jan but I’d be amazed if it’s becuase Dier is stepping in.

 

[Fatcat]

Is there space for dier with the latest transfers or are we still above ?

 

[TC18]

Is there space for dier with the latest transfers or are we still above ?

There was space for him before I believe.

(unless we were going to register Ndombele, over him)

 

[Stoof]

Now we can get side tracked about extenuating factors in each case, we can squabble over being the right fit for the club and this and that. Personally I think that's pointless, the key point is, there has been a pattern of manager, disillusion with the club, falling out team team, results falling off a cliff and manager sacked. You do not need any ITK to see that and so it is perfectly reasonable, in my opinion for people to be concerned with Ange being unhappy when he has given us what we've been craving recently, which is hope. Hope that we might actually still have a chance of seeing our team do something.

Without wishing to be over reductive, isn't that pretty much every football manager at every football club ever?

 

[Majick]

Is there space for dier with the latest transfers or are we still above ?

Yes, there is - with Sanchez and Ndombele leaving, both Dier and Lloris can be registered when the squad list is submitted next Wednesday.

 

[roy@SC]

By 'people' I assume you mean ITK

Ideally, they could be more considered and clear but to be honest, even if they were crystal clear, someone would read something into it that isn't there. We have seen this many times. The issue isn't so much what they post although granted sometimes it could be better, it's people taking it as gospel or too literally, that's not on any ITK, that's on them..

Saying he was 'raging' is inflammatory. For about two seconds until you reach the next words "I suspect that was hyperbole' or something along those lines, yet people latch on to that word and kick off.

Fuck me, one post later someone, like Sherlock Holmes revealing the perp, said that it was hyperbole. So tell me people didn't ignore what Rob said.

There's your problem.

Agreed. I'm amazed the way some people read into ITK as if it absolutely must be 100% gospel truth or they get the hump. Ridiculous

 

[NickHSpurs]

Given Levy's past, if we're only one backup CB away from Ange having pretty much everything he wanted from his first window then we haven't done too badly.

 

[jurgen11]

if Ange sticks his head in here hell be fucking raging mate !

 

[JamieSpursCommunityUser]

Given Levy's past, if we're only one backup CB away from Ange having pretty much everything he wanted from his first window then we haven't done too badly.

Let's not forget it's the same CB the last 3 managers needed also.

There's absolutely no excuse for the board to have blocked this.

Take VDV's pace out of the back line and either we'll be retreating back to our own box again, or conceding by the bucket load.

Both would badly hurt the team and the whole Ange project. It's that fundamental.

I really hope Phillips will be able to cope if called upon. He has outstanding natural ability and physical attributes to eventually be a top player.

But putting this amount of pressure on him definitely wasn't the plan when we were bidding for CBs, and for very good reason.

Defenders and Goalkeepers are blamed far more for mistakes than forwards, particularly high profile ones at a big club with millions of online fans passing judgement.

It's a huge risk to take with a young players confidence and development with no other viable help whatsoever in even a 4th CB.

I really hope we get away with it, or it all works out. But putting ourselves in this position wasn't necessary, nor responsible imo.

There's plenty to be positive about how the team is shaping up, but these same old Levy self inflicted issues still persist.

Every window, he just can't help himself.

My issues is if we as fans give him an inch by accepting this, he'll take a mile.

 

[biscuit]

Might just start emailing @[email protected] my posts whenever he gives me a negative rep.

Anyone know his email address?

I’ve seen a few messages like this recently. Is there really any need? Sure, you can say that you’re joking, but, just as you are perfectly entitled to make your views known on anything to do with Spurs without the need to justify yourself, John, or anyone else, is similarly entitled to disagree.
The world is a pretty unpleasant place at times, and this place can often feel like a microcosm of that. And that unpleasantness can affect people in wholly different ways.
Surely the one thing we can all agree on, though, is that we all want the best for this football club.
Now, you and John may fundamentally disagree on how this to be achieved, but none of us is viewing this from exactly the same position. Nor are we privy to the way we all feel, and the way that words, however, humourlessly meant, can impact on someone.
I despair at the fact that, try as we might, rational debate on this forum can often feel impossible. In essence, we want the same thing; a team to be proud of, and football that makes us forget about the travails of life. How much responsibility we put on Tottenham Hotspur or Daniel Levy for that to happen is up to us as individuals.
Just as with the Brexit debate (Brexiteers and Remoaners) the terms ‘bedwetters’ and ‘BSoDL’ are hugely reductive, and stifle open, honest, and considered debate.
As a moderator of this forum, I really don’t see that you should be ‘sticking it’ to a member who just happens to disagree with you. How about we all treat each other with respect and just see how we roll from there?