The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - DEADLINE DAY 31st August 2021

[SuperLuka]

We can still do free signings, but it was in reference to Franck Kessie and being linked to wanting him next year (can offer contract in Jan) when his contract is up

Chelsea also being linked. Could just be from his agent as they are discussing a new contract.

 

[CockOnBall]

or, Paratici will realize that he will ultimately be judged by others on the players he brings in - and if someone else is making those decisions, then that puts a higher risk on Paratici.

If you hire someone to do a job - get out of the way, and let them do the job. Management 101

I don’t recall anyone saying get out of the way when Paratici wanted to hire Gattuso?

 

[CockOnBall]

Well precedent is set now. No complaining from those defending him, if you miss out on someone you actually want in the future.

Works both ways. So no complaining from those criticising him if he saves us from hiring or signing someone we don’t want. Aka Gattuso or anyone else Mendes was throwing at Paratici.

 

[dannyo]

Exactly, it's probably not the case but I can definitely imagine Levy thinking that far ahead and worrying about a new manager potentially coming in and not wanting/starting a £50m Traore. Whether managers are successful or not, players tend to outlast them at the club. Either way, I definitely think the idea is to build a squad in Paratici's image rather than Nuno's image, a system in which any manager can come in and take over if needed.

As long as you manage not to undermine said DoF so much that he gets pissed off and leaves ?

 

[thekneaf]

The one where he had more time to evaluate the needs of the club, and the skills of the player, with consultation with the manager.

Sure, but if I've been asked to sign a cheque for £50m for a player you previously said was a worth less, and b not great - I'd question that.

I should probably stop though, as I'm only defending it because I agree with the decision rather than the process, which I'll admit lacks rigour and is a bit dumb.

I hope Paratici finds us the next Son and in contrition Levy blindly signs that cheque.

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

I don’t recall anyone saying get out of the way when Paratici wanted to hire Gattuso?

Its simple - if Levy does not trust Paratici to make football-related decisions - Levy should sack Paratici.

From a football-related concern - Gattuso might have been a fine hire. From a PR perspective, Gattuso was a nightmare. That is the difference.

What we are hearing about Traore is that Levy determined it was a bad football-related decision - not that it was a bad PR move.

 

[Trix]

Also no complaining from anyone if he saves us from hiring or signing someone we don’t want. Aka Gattuso or anyone else Mendes was throwing at Paratici.

And if you think Levy did that for any reason other than fan reaction you are very naive. He'd have taken Gatusso in a heart beat if it wasn't for the huge media storm it was creating.

As I say I have defended him to the hilt when it's been right to even through the ESL fiasco, and will continue to do so. Can't defend this though, and some of the tenuous excuses and theories some are throwing up is some of the finest straw clutching I've seen on here.

 

[vegassd]

fwiw. On this occasion I don’t have an issue with Levy getting involved. Start of a new relationship. Not only with the manager but also the DOF. Levy has been involved for so long. He probably can’t help himself to a certain extent. But is also probably a little wary of spending big on players with both just starting at the club.

I think the issue is about the motivation for his decision. It's not sounding like a trust thing, or a money thing, or a "getting to know you" thing... it's Levy making a qualitative decision about how good football players are. And regardless of times he has got that right or wrong in the past, that should no longer be a part of his job.

Personally I can imagine a couple of scenarios where the decision might be merited (just about) but I think Trix has since been pretty clear that the decision was made based on Levy's judgement of players. And that's not merited.

Maybe we can put it down as a "blip" in the first window with Paratici, but Levy doesn't strike me as a "blip" type of person, so the concern is definitely there.

 

[the lad]

The BSODL brigade have been out since the transfer window ended ?

It’s all a about the business ,estate agency and property development business not the business of winning trophies. End the failure - ENIC OUT

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

Part of Paratici's role is to persuade him to follow through on Paritici's recommendations. There's no way around that.

Spot on, and I think you'll find the DOF/Chairman relationship works this way at most clubs. For example, why didn't Man City stump up the fee for Kane? Pep and Begiristan would have identified Kane as the player they wanted. It would have been Sheikh Mansour who didn't want to pay what Levy was demanding.

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

[/SIZE]
Keep this simple!
Any more actions like this from DL, our DoF will serve notice! Now go argue with that.

You say that as if some of us have a choice.

 

[Russ1201]

It’s all a about the business for the BDSOL, estate agency and property development business not the business of winning trophies. End the failure - ENIC OUT

I think Levy has done a brilliant job of running the day to day business and with the stadium etc but my big issue with him is he gets involved to much on the footballing side and wont accept he out of his depth on it. He reminds me of the old school chairman who used to get involved in footballing matters, nowadays they take a step back and allow the manager or sporting/technical director take responsibility for footballing side.

 

[KaribYid]

Yeah cos that's why he knocked it back.

I have both backed and criticised Levy throughout his time with us and I've taken each incident on it's own merits. I've defended those targeted as BSODL because I felt he has needed defending at times from those that literally do just blame Levy for everything. This Summer has shown me conclusively though that A&C was right all along whatever he does there are certain people out there that will just defend his every single move regardless of what he does and they are just as one sighted as those that criticise his every move.

This.

There a quite a few posters on here who defend everything ENIC does. Meanwhile they label everyone who has any legitimate criticism of the club as negative, bedwetters etc. They then complain how the quality of SC has decreased and how it's so negative around here when the only thing that's changed from previous years is that DL has been making more bad decisions than good ones, the club has declined from CL finalists to conference league and hence, he's rightly bearing the brunt of that criticism as the major decision maker at the club.

And as someone mentioned in this thread, when confronted with real examples of Levy's downsides (like his interefence in the Traore deal as outlined by you, JJ and Herc), they stay silent and dish out passive aggressive ratings or run to the ENIC thread to wallow in self pity about how they are just trying to be neutral and being labelled as BSoDL.

Blindly supporting and rationalizing everything every decision Levy makes does not make you "balanced or neutral". It makes you just as bad at the hardcore "anti-Levy" posters.

 

[Dillspur]

The one skill I wish I had was hindsight.
So many on here have it along with an ability to look into the future.
I just have to wait and see what unfolds ?.

Is it hindsight or just recognizing a pattern over the last 20 years?

 

[thelak]

Levy gets a lot of things right, and he gets a lot of things wrong. Off the pitch, I doubt there is a better chairman of a club out there, and even then he still managed to drag us through the mud when it came to COVID loans and the ESL. That having been said, the infrastructure of the club is world-class and the club also seems to have a much more sustainable relationship with the local area.

On the pitch, yes there were and are opportunities missed because Levy gets too involved. I doubt that that will ever really change. However, would we have offloaded the players we have this window and got the likes of Romero, Gill and Sarr in if it had been Levy leading the deals? I very much doubt it.

The feeling I get is that when the value of the transfer exceeds a point, Levy is gonna step in and throw his weight about. Paratici and Hitchen will probably only get free reign up to a point.

The way I look at this window is as follows;

Is the squad in better shape now than before the window? I think so - just. I think our defence is gonna be a bit tighter and more disciplined this season - and for me this was our major weak point last season. We lost so many points from winning positions it was criminal.

Could the window have been better? Absolutely. Signing Traore would’ve helped with creativity, but is still not the backup to Kane we’ve been crying out for. I don’t think we’ll struggle to score goals this year - it’s just gonna take some time for the players to get used to Nuno and his ways for the fluidity in our play to return. At the moment, I’m just happy to see the players working hard on the pitch closing down and not camping out in front of the area for the final 20 minutes.

We’re gonna have to accept that Levy is just gonna be Levy. He’s got more right than wrong in his tenure - the progress of the club in the last 20 years or so is testament to that. He’s never going to break the bank to take a punt on a player because the club, as a business, does not have the resources to do that. The new stadium may give us that over the next few years assuming there are no more waves of COVID, but we’ll just have to continue to be patient.

And one final point from me on this - a lot of people on here, myself included, took the view that Kane leaving to join City is tantamount to buying trophies. Well, as far as I’m concerned, that also applies to us too. For all of Levy’s faults, I would much rather win trophies under his tenure that some oligarch because at least Levy has tried to run us properly.

He gets a lot more wrong than right and when you look at the things he has got right there was a significant amount of luck (e.g Poch)or things not as good as they might appear (Stadium hugely over budget)

I would also like to win trophies under Levy than an Oligarch. But we have won 1 trophy and ENIC are clearly in it for the cash!

Also is running the club properly charging the most expensive tickets but assembling the 5th or 6th best squad?

I don’t understand why fans don’t push back more on ticket prices vs. The investment going into the squad

 

[McFlash]

I'm normally pretty quick to defend Levy and Enic because I think they get a lot of unfair abuse on here, and not enough credit for what they've done for us as a club.

BUT. For Levy to hire a well respected DoF, let him hire a manager and give them both a budget, to then swoop in and shit on their plans is a massive problem and cannot be excused.
Whether Levy, us, or anyone else rates Traore isn't the issue here, if the fact that the manager and DoF wanted him and had cut their cloth accordingly that's the issue.
Levy had no place to veto their plans and I can't see any good coming from it.
Surely even a big a control freak as Daniel is, he understands the old saying that you don't buy a dog and bark yourself.

 

[jimbo]

Does beg the question why we didn't drop 50M on any of those other positions this window if we did actually have the funds, though...

I believe that question has been answered within the ITK though. Paratici et al believed they were in a position to offer what was needed to secure Traore, that they had done everything else in terms of our business within the required parameters to enable us to make that move. It was at the last moment that Levy stepped in and put a stop to it, which ensured that not only did we not get Traore but that there was no back-up option. When the goalposts move swiftly and to that extent, you can't really expect Paratici or anyone else to be ready for it.

 

[rez9000]

test

you make 50m pounds sound like a few quid lost on a fruit machine. And not singling you out. This is the problem these days. The money is so crazy that it isn’t even considered a “large” amount of money. I blame football manager. It’s just numbers in a post or on a screen. And I know the premier league is a ridiculous place where money is concerned. But it’s still 50m pounds out of company coffers.

fwiw. On this occasion I don’t have an issue with Levy getting involved. Start of a new relationship. Not only with the manager but also the DOF. Levy has been involved for so long. He probably can’t help himself to a certain extent. But is also probably a little wary of spending big on players with both just starting at the club. Levy strikes me as a person who doesn’t trust many people. It seems that the only manager he has trusted over the years is Poch. And that took some time. We need to give some leeway. Which I know for some is difficult at the moment. Seeing how the last we seasons and the ESL thing went.

Disco, what's the bolded word in the post you quoted? It's important to the argument - critical, you might say...

 

[Tiffers]

Just read on Facebook Aurier in talks with Arsenal ?

 

[Aphex]

Yeah I can definitely see merit in this argument.

I'm sympathetic to the idea that we should back Paratici if he's in charge of footballing matters, and support our new manager, but we're still short in a few other areas and, while Traore offers some unique qualities, we are fairly stacked with players in that general position/area. Is paying over the odds for another wide player with a proven lack of end product really a good idea?

That 50m we would've spent on Traore is 50m that could go towards a really top quality CB, a striker, a creative CM or an actual goalscoring wide-forward in a future window - all higher priorities IMO. We aren't City or Chelsea who can afford to buy a load of 50 million players and bench half of them - we need to get those big signings spot on (see how much Ndombele has set us back).

Does beg the question why we didn't drop 50M on any of those other positions this window if we did actually have the funds, though...

I'm assuming maybe nobody we wanted was available, which leads me to think they just wanted to spend it because it is there and the window was closing.

I know Nuno wanted Traore, and Paratici seemingly got on board with it, but Traore just doesn't convince me. For 50 million I'd want an attacker with excellent passing / crossing / technique and refinished finishing, and he does not possess these qualities. I'd pay 30 mill tops. I am glad we have kept the money and hopefully we can sign a goal scoring RWF next window.