The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - 6th January 2015

[prawnsandwich]

Before Benny gets thrown under the bus .. Surely if he is crocked then an insurance payout could be an avenue and lose the wage outlet ?

This "thing" you want done-it can be done.

 

[Ledleys Knee]

Yeah but when we look at who's actually playing, we have 19 players (including those four) with only 17 of those being field players, and Bentaleb of course gone for about a month. If we do sell Naughton and Lennon as per ITK saying there is interest, then as it stands we could only replace them with homegrowns. So the point is still at least somewhat relevant.

Friedel and Ceballos are two O/S players we could easily not name for the second half of the season. Yedlin is another U21/free player too who is now here.

 

[prawnsandwich]

Surely Naughton going would put us in a bit of trouble homegrown players wise? I thought we were at the barebones already.

Half a dozen players I'd rather see out before him anyway.

We don't have to have HG players. We just don't have to have more than 17 non HG players. But kids don't count.
Calculators do, of course. Hope that clears that up,

 

[prawnsandwich]

Also known as amortisation.
Or liquidation (not to be confused with murder) if it's about assets like BAE, Adebayor...

One day someone will explain ammortanisation.....

 

[DaSpurs]

Friedel and Ceballos are two O/S players we could easily not name for the second half of the season. Yedlin is another U21/free player too who is now here.

Yedlin is here, but we're still not sure how much he'll be involved. I hope a great amount as I hope we sell both Naughton and Chiriches to make way, but either way we still don't know how much he'll contribute.

Ceballos I hope you're right about, as I hope we can at least loan him away for the rest of the season before his departure. Does neither him or us anything by him not even playing with the U-21's.

Friedel I don't think we'll drop off the list. Far too much risk if one keeper goes down with injury, as we then wouldn't have any experienced option for the bench.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

One day someone will explain ammortanisation.....

Have you not read Levycyclopedia?

 

[prawnsandwich]

Not sure if it's been mentioned but another thing to consider is Levy's reputation. As someone who has worked in sales and knows in certain markets reputation is key the product/service/asset (player) isn't always black and white in cost when negotiating. Levy has a reputation for essentially not getting shafted. That may hold us back on certain players not being sold but I bet it plays a big part in what he gets for those players that are

Classic post.
Some people consider players and managers as if they were chess pieces in a game of draughts. But in fact some of them are human.

 

[Spurs 1961]

Classic post.
Some people consider players and managers as if they were chess pieces in a game of draughts. But in fact some of them are human.

Or maybe chess pieces in a game of chess

 

[HappySpur]

I think you've misunderstood his point about 'discounting'. It wasn't about reducing sale prices for players on the way out. It referred to the way transfer fees for players brought in are written off over the course of their contracts.

A player like Naughton (who was the smaller 'half' of the £8m transfer fee along with Walker) has long since had the book value of his transfer written off, as he has been at Tottenham for many years. Any fee we can get from him will represent a write-back for the current year's accounts, because his cost was all accounted for in earlier years

The players brought in during Summer 2013, by contrast, were signed on 3-4-5 year contracts, so their transfer fees are still being written off at 33%, 25% or 20% per year, over the length of their contracts. So if we were to sell (say) Capoue, there would be a write-back for the fee received, but it would be offset by a write-off of his original transfer fee, less one year already written off.

Oh that is completely different. I get it now. Cheers

 

[DJS]

I believe those folks are nothing more than trolls, and it's best not to feed them. Let A&C do... "the business" to them

I just kinda presumed they were stupid lol.

 

[SpursSvedala]

Friedel and Ceballos are two O/S players we could easily not name for the second half of the season. Yedlin is another U21/free player too who is now here.

I would suggest you change naughton for Yedlin in your sig... Otherwise

 

[jimbo]

Very touchy stuff, but nonetheless that gamble goes both ways.

It does, though perhaps the repercussions of the financial gambling are more likely to be longer lasting and wider reaching. If we don't sign anyone this window and we don't make the top 4 people may point and say we missed an opportunity, as they do with the Saha window. Yet we cannot be certain that different players bought would have secured qualification back then, and we can't be certain additions now will make a difference either - look at how long it has taken some of the recruits of the last two years to settle. You can be certain of the repercussions of underselling and overspending though.

I'm not against signing players mind, I just think it's become a sort of cult thing where every window we have to buy someone just because we can and people clamour for that and are overly disappointed if we don't, for the wrong reasons.

 

[DaSpurs]

It does, though perhaps the repercussions of the financial gambling are more likely to be longer lasting and wider reaching. If we don't sign anyone this window and we don't make the top 4 people may point and say we missed an opportunity, as they do with the Saha window. Yet we cannot be certain that different players bought would have secured qualification back then, and we can't be certain additions now will make a difference either - look at how long it has taken some of the recruits of the last two years to settle. You can be certain of the repercussions of underselling and overspending though.

I'm not against signing players mind, I just think it's become a sort of cult thing where every window we have to buy someone just because we can and people clamour for that and are overly disappointed if we don't for the wrong reasons.

For all the reasons you cite, hence the very definition of a gamble. I do think the repercussions though of failing on the opportunity exaggerate as the game becomes more popular, as it means less income and less prestige for attracting better players. With how much money is now involved in finishing in the CL places, it's also much easier for teams to solidify their positions.

I agree though that it's certainly become a bit of a "fad" and that it's exciting to see new players arrive, but in this case I do think we have the means, have the reasons to do it for purely fooballing reasons, and have a great opportunity to capitalize upon to really push things over the edge.

Now mind you, I'm absolutely convinced we could improve and strive for those opportunities without dishing out the major bucks.

 

[balalasaurus]

This "thing" you want done-it can be done.

Lasagna?

 

[Kaboul'sForehead]

Getting rid of players is not a problem! However getting rid of players for a sum of money that pleases Levy is where we have problems.

I'm sure many teams are interested in Naughton. Will anyone pay £5-7m? It will be difficult. The same goes with all our other players that are available for transfer. We all know Levy loves to haggle but sometimes he needs to accept a loss! It's impossible to break-even or make profit on every transfer.

The issue isn't so much that he won't accept a loss but more that it sets a precedent suggesting his arm can be twisted with ALL transfers.

 

[Kaboul'sForehead]

Maybe an accident, d'oh, wtf and spam are all on the right hand side where most people scroll when on a phone.

Maybe the mods could move all the positive reps to the right hand side then any accidental ones would just be positive and everyone's happy

Bad idea. If I accidentally gave someone like Jazz a positive rating I would shoot myself in the testicles.

 

[ButchCassidy]

For me, this window is where Baldini earns his money. From what I can tell he was brought in mostly on the strength of his footballing contacts throughout Europe, something Levy always lacked (except for agents). If the top priority of our window is getting deadwood out as fast and expensively as possible, a lot of that responsibility is on Franco to make the right phone calls. If all we manage is a loan for Chiriches and come February we are still carrying a squad with all of Ade, Soldado, Capoue, Paulinho, Lennon, and Kaboul, with zero significant transfer money coming in or wage reduction, then IMO he isn't bringing very much to the table.

 

[cliff jones]

I'm sure others have already greeted JJs insights with a mix of resignation and in some cases disappointment. In that Poch obviously doesn't rate our back up players, and we are an injury to Kane, Eriksen or a CB away from the selection of players who are either shit, cant be bothered or both. We've been lucky with injuries for once but Jan and Feb are clogged with games in multiple competitions and once again the tightness of the purse strings likely risks our reasonable opportunities for success.

We're always a couple of quality additions away from being truly competitive, and it's always a shame not to see the boat pushed out when it could be. Instead the yacht gets pushed out of a far-flung harbour, somewhere in the Bahamas, and those of us freezing our bollocks off back here paying top dollar for a restricted view pray Harry's engine keeps going, but he surely cant play twice a week for three of four months without blowing up in terms of form as well as fitness.

Oh, silly me, I was doing a Leeds or Pompey there for a second.

 

[cliff jones]

For me, this window is where Baldini earns his money. From what I can tell he was brought in mostly on the strength of his footballing contacts throughout Europe, something Levy always lacked (except for agents). If the top priority of our window is getting deadwood out as fast and expensively as possible, a lot of that responsibility is on Franco to make the right phone calls. If all we manage is a loan for Chiriches and come February we are still carrying a squad with all of Ade, Soldado, Capoue, Paulinho, Lennon, and Kaboul, with zero significant transfer money coming in or wage reduction, then IMO he isn't bringing very much to the table.

most of us aren't sure what FBs precise remit is but however charming and well-connected he is he's not the one setting unreasonable asking prices which will leave our own ambitions snookered. Anyway, let's see if Premier clubs in particular are willing to use more TV money to stump up for our unwanteds as well as wonder what Baldy is actually using our own TV money for.

 

[225]

I think you've misunderstood his point about 'discounting'. It wasn't about reducing sale prices for players on the way out. It referred to the way transfer fees for players brought in are written off over the course of their contracts.

A player like Naughton (who was the smaller 'half' of the £8m transfer fee along with Walker) has long since had the book value of his transfer written off, as he has been at Tottenham for many years. Any fee we can get from him will represent a write-back for the current year's accounts, because his cost was all accounted for in earlier years

The players brought in during Summer 2013, by contrast, were signed on 3-4-5 year contracts, so their transfer fees are still being written off at 33%, 25% or 20% per year, over the length of their contracts. So if we were to sell (say) Capoue, there would be a write-back for the fee received, but it would be offset by a write-off of his original transfer fee, less one year already written off.

Not quite correct - Naughton was the more expensive player and was being chased by a number of clubs at the time, being Sheff Utd's 1st choice RB. Kyle Walker was his younger backup and hadn't really hit the ground by then.

I recall that Everton had bid £5m for Naughton and we matched that, with Walker being valued at something like £3.4m on top, making the £8-£9m combined fee.

What you have to remember, besides your write-off stuff, is that some players actually appreciate in value. Despite what some thing of Naughton, his stock should have increased in the last year and a half as he got regular game time and showed himself to be a good defender - his weakness is that he isn't a good wing back, which is closer how he was being played.

If Liverpool paid £17.5m for Glenn Johnson 5 years ago, I don't think £5m or even £7m for Naughton is even slightly expensive - he's a versatile English defender with a good attitude and only 26.