Tactically Inept?

[only1waddle]

TBH though the way we started the game yday we were hardly pressing at all abd I thought we were set for a defeat

I hope we see a return to the pressing that was present against West Ham first half and Stoke, maybe with the busy schedule and our bad injury list we backed off any vigorous pressing?
I wouldn't mind if we go down the Dortmund route, good defensive shape and pressing in numbers.

 

[Gassin's finest]

Sherwood is actually playing a style similar to that employed by HR. He plays an inverted winger on the left (Bale and Modric in the old days) who drifts into CM rather than attacks directly down the flank or inside forward channel (Eriksen) and a more conventional winger on the other flank (Lennon) who generally hugs the line.

When this occurs we go into a 4-3-3 formastion as Eriksen moves into CM and Lennon moves up to form the front three with Soldado and Adebayor. Ade also moves out to the flank as well at times to drag defenders with him which caused the United defence all sorts of bother as they were pulled out of shape.

While Lennon operates on the flank and tracks back to help out Walker, Ericksen leaves Rose exposed on the other flank. Now Rose was one on one with his winger and he should be able to handle that but I noticed that Moyes targeted his wing and there was little respite for Danny.

We obviously need some adjuting so this works better because you would expect the team to be pretty fluid in moving in and out of 4-4-2 and 4-3-3 depending on how we move the ball forward. When Rose is under pressure we should be able to relieve that by adjusting the formation.

The highlight for me was the brilliant running in the channels by Soldado who continually opened up space for Ade and Eriksen and took defenders away with him. Look at his superb movement for the first goal off the ball which takes out two United defenders leaving Smalling completley exposed one on one with Ade.

Exactly how I saw it, agree with all of this.

 

[Flashspur]

For me the real interesting point that comes out of the United game was Ade, Eriksen's and Soldado's performance - their movement and interactive play.

Soldado was playing as a fantasisti a lot of the time. You could say that Eriksen was playing more like a traditional trequartista, and was sitting in a free role between center midfield and the two forwards when he moved into CM from the wing.

But Soldado's role was a revelation. He was at times a False 9 but played mostly in the fantasisti position. This is a play-maker who is given a free role to operate in central midfield, attacking midfield and wide positions on the wings or as a second striker. At times Ade was a little like a rifinitore coming in from the wing to link midfield and the attack. The interplay between the three was wonderful to watch and they took the United defense apart a number of times with this interplay. The United defense had a real hard time working out who to follow and where.

Its early days yet but it seems that Sherwood is building a real connection between these three so they interchange and switch. But as its early days, sometimes it didn't quite work out and they were in each others way, but its shows some real tactical smarts on the part of Sherwood. Perhaps its Ramsey's influence as well?

Other feature were the discipline show by the CM two who held their positions for most of the game and the fact that we were often defending as a flat six until it all got very ragged and we even had Ade helping out at the back towards the end. Obviously more rehearsals on the training pitch are required.

Tactically inept? I don't think so. There appears to be a real pattern developing here and something that has happened in training. At times when the interchange happened it was so slick that it had to be rehearsed. However its a lot easier when you have world class talent like Eriksen Ade and Soldado playing together.

 

[THOWIG]

I'd be much happier if we still had little Luka controlling the tempo.

 

[Bobishism]

The idea of tactical lineups is a bit silly. you field 10 and they field 10, your team shape is dictated by who holds the most possession.

 

[Donki]

I hope we see a return to the pressing that was present against West Ham first half and Stoke, maybe with the busy schedule and our bad injury list we backed off any vigorous pressing?
I wouldn't mind if we go down the Dortmund route, good defensive shape and pressing in numbers.

Pressing as a tactic is good but shouldn't be the be all and end all and happen all the time, yes it stops the opposition keeping the ball and allows us to get possession the ball further up the pitch. Like everything however there are negatives, it pulls your players out of position and it can make the game very congested and it burns energy reserves that can finder fast counterattacking football. I think against Man U away we let them have the ball and when we got it off them we were able to hit them hard and fast resulting in two goals, on a better day we should of gotten more.

I hope that against the lower teams we can press and frustrate them but as Tim says, there is more than one way to win a match.

 

[$hoguN]

Tim has done well since being appointed. The players are clearly playing for him and he is getting the results, but that doesn't make playing 4-4-2 with a shit-ton of offensive players any less tactically naive. It is working now, but there simply has to be a recognition that sometimes the formation will get us tonked, or will result in us losing games that we perhaps should have been able to see out. When playing in a league where a lot of teams will aim to congest the middle of the park you will sometimes get out competed due to a lack of numbers, but providing Tim reacts to that and shows some flexibility it may well be fine. Time will hold the answer.

There is a reason that so many of the World's best teams like Barcelona, Dortmund, Bayern Munich, Madrid, etc. utilise a 4-3-3 (or some variation) though.

 

[CornerPinDreamer]

 

[yido_number1]

The idea of tactical lineups is a bit silly. you field 10 and they field 10, your team shape is dictated by who holds the most possession.

I prefer it when we field 11 players personally... seems a silly tactic not to use the full compliment?!!

 

[only1waddle]

Pressing as a tactic is good but shouldn't be the be all and end all and happen all the time, yes it stops the opposition keeping the ball and allows us to get possession the ball further up the pitch. Like everything however there are negatives, it pulls your players out of position and it can make the game very congested and it burns energy reserves that can finder fast counterattacking football. I think against Man U away we let them have the ball and when we got it off them we were able to hit them hard and fast resulting in two goals, on a better day we should of gotten more.

I hope that against the lower teams we can press and frustrate them but as Tim says, there is more than one way to win a match.

Indeed, as Dortmund have found out in the Bundesliga, they now have to face weaker sides that park the bus against them, and find themselves with the majority of possession.
I hope we find ourselves, over time, in a situation where we can drop into a decent defensive shape like Arsenal and Chelsea do, when both are playing well they seem to transition from attack and defence with ease.

 

[aliyid]

There is a reason that so many of the World's best teams like Barcelona, Dortmund, Bayern Munich, Madrid, etc. utilise a 4-3-3 (or some variation) though.

Always tricky looking at tactics from other leagues though. This is one of the faults AVB always had with us and with Chelsea by trying to force a 4-5-1 / 4-3-3 system with inverted wingers that worked so well for him at Porto. Different leagues and different teams will always look better when compared to others.

The teams you mention all control their games with possession based football against teams who are technically inferior to them and sit back. When the other teams sit back then yes it could be argued that 4-3-3 is king with a multitude of attacking options however whenever this is used by Spurs (and other English teams) it is more of a 4-5-1 with two attacking midfielders supporting a lone striker. This rarely works as the lone striker is left isolated.

In the Prem 4-4-2 has dominated for the past few years (only Mourinhos first Chelsea team with Drogba and Arsenal with Henry have excelled with 4-5-1 / 4-3-3). City and Utd both play with two strikers, Liverpool are having success this year as they're playing with two strikers and we have never looked as good when we only have one up top.

There is nothing wrong with 4-4-2 and it amazes me how people always believe it is a limited formation that shows a lack of imagination. We play better with a 4-4-2 as it allows us to spring with pace and use the width of the pitch to stretch defences.

 

[Dinghy]

Tim has done well since being appointed. The players are clearly playing for him and he is getting the results, but that doesn't make playing 4-4-2 with a shit-ton of offensive players any less tactically naive. It is working now, but there simply has to be a recognition that sometimes the formation will get us tonked, or will result in us losing games that we perhaps should have been able to see out. When playing in a league where a lot of teams will aim to congest the middle of the park you will sometimes get out competed due to a lack of numbers, but providing Tim reacts to that and shows some flexibility it may well be fine. Time will hold the answer.

There is a reason that so many of the World's best teams like Barcelona, Dortmund, Bayern Munich, Madrid, etc. utilise a 4-3-3 (or some variation) though.

But he's not been strictly playing 442.. You can only presume that if all you're doing is reading the lineup and reading the news reports of the games... If you watch the games it's not been 442

 

[DJS]

I'm certainly more relaxed now after our two last games, when we've played with some solidity in the centre of the park. Also some nice touches in yesterdays game with Dembele as designated Rooney tormentor. Haven't seen Rooney this subdued before this season.

That being said, the question is for how many more games Ade will stay motivated, since he's basically carrying us in many aspects of the game. We all know he he goes hot and cold, and will Sherwood really be able to work his magic better than Wenger, Mancini or AVB?

Being the eternal optimist, I'm hoping it's because Ade is the kinda player who needs to be loved, encouraged and just handled in a certain way.

I am hoping it's a how he's managed thing, rather then securing his permanent contract and now proving a point.

From the moment AVB signed Ade permanently we had the debacle of Defoe being constantly played up top on his own when we were crying out for Ade to be up there. I know Ade had to catch up on fitness but it was still handled poorly.

Then when he came back from his brother's funeral he was made to train with the kids...

Hopefully Timmeh is a lot more like Harry man-management wise and is able to put his arm around Ade and keep him smiling / in a good state of mind and we will continue to see good performances from him.

This is why I'd also be interesting in Disco Benny coming back as AVB didn't from the outside seem to treat him too well last season or have any confidence in him, whilst he flourished under Harry.

Fans are quite harsh on Ade though as even in Man U thread I observed SC'ers berating him before he got his goal, which I though was very harsh.

He can't be brilliant and score / assist every game.

I do remember him being very effective with Saha (and also having some very good games paired with Defoe) so was very happy to see him paired with Soldado.

 

[Lufti]

Lot of people on here were saying 'I'm done with football' or 'I'm starting to lose interest in Tottenham now' after AVB was sacked, but no doubt they've still kept an eye on how we were doing and after last night they'll be eagerly anticipating the next game!

Heard a lot about Tim's character being a bit unsavoury, but he comes across well in the media, seems to have the media onside, if he can keep Adebayor onside we might just get somewhere this year! Think he's set us up well in every game, though the Holtby and Eriksen partnership was a bit naiive, and he perhaps overrated Sigurdsson's ability a tad.

 

[GutBucket]

Sherwood listens to his staff, Ramsey, Freund etc which is why I have a lot of confidence in him. And because of recent results.

 

[$hoguN]

But he's not been strictly playing 442.. You can only presume that if all you're doing is reading the lineup and reading the news reports of the games... If you watch the games it's not been 442

I have watched all our games under Sherwood, but despite Ade pulling wide, Soldado dropping off a bit, and players covering, we are still playing 4-4-2, as neither of our two strikers are really a Rooney/Suarez type that can drop back and really influence play. Soldado is a very adept footballer and Adebayor when enthusiastic is a real handful but neither can give you the extra body in midfield that you need.

 

[Barry Mead]

People have differing ideas about what is tactically inept, some look at a successful teams tactics and think that is the right way, in reality players should dictate tactics rather than trying to fit square pegs in round holes. Instructions is another thing, some seem to think the coach who wants to do detailed analysis of the opposition and them give players hugely detailed instructions of what to do and when is in some ways a master tactician, others prefer a coach that urges players to take responsibility themselves within a general blueprint.
I think Sherwood has made a few mistakes, but has called quite a bit right, allowing he's still very much learning he's doing very well. Good managers learn by their mistakes but equally have good intuition. I don't agree with everything Sherwood has done but overall he has entertained and gotten decent results so imo he deserves to be assessed over a longer term. I'm perfectly happy for him to get a chance now until the end of the season and continue in the role if he proves himself

 

[JollyHappy]

It was interesting that Eriksen's cross for Ade came from the right wing when he was predominantly on the left side. I think that was an example of what TS and the players have been saying which is "go for what feels correct". Under AVB, Eriksen would not have been allowed to drift that far over to the right but it was the obvious thing to do as that was where the space was.

It's early days but its definitely a much more exciting brand of football!

 

[Dinghy]

I have watched all our games under Sherwood, but despite Ade pulling wide, Soldado dropping off a bit, and players covering, we are still playing 4-4-2, as neither of our two strikers are really a Rooney/Suarez type that can drop back and really influence play. Soldado is a very adept footballer and Adebayor when enthusiastic is a real handful but neither can give you the extra body in midfield that you need.

But we've generally had one of the two pulling out wide to one side and either Erik or Azza pushing up to make a 433... Can't remember which thread it was, but someone posted a heatmap/average position map after the Stoke game and it was very definitive/clear to see that we had played 433 with Azza making up the 3. Yesterday it looked like Erik had been given that role more than Azza (and it left Rose very exposed but it worked)

 

[scoobydoo]

Soldado was playing as a fantasisti a lot of the time. You could say that Eriksen was playing more like a traditional trequartista,

But Soldado's role was a revelation. He was at times a False 9 but played mostly in the fantasisti position.

At times Ade was a little like a rifinitore coming in from the wing to link midfield and the attack.

we were often defending as a flat six

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