Spurs and VAR

[MR_BEN]

and the ref/VAR wouldn't have given us the pen. Fact.

They’d have probably booked someone for simulation instead ..

 

[BENNO]

Just watched MoTD, first game Wolves player goes down under a challenge that was far more of a penalty (i.e far more contact) than ours, yet nothing given after a check. I'd be ok with either both 'fouls' being a penalty or neither being a penalty, but week in week out we see games where one ref/VAR gives a foul or a handball that another ref at different game doesn't give. League points / positions being dictated by what ref you get on a certain day.

 

[BorjeSpurs]

Dale Johnson on ESPN have the most thorough analysis of VAR situations online. We have all experienced situations where we say 'VAR hasn't overturned it but if it hadn't been given, VAR would have never given it'. Well the highlighted above confirms that this is not only a saying but actually ingrained in the VAR rule book.

The question is not 'Was it a penalty?', instead it is 'If the Ref gave it then it is a penalty and if the Ref didn't then it is not', and when that is the case you really do wonder why we have VAR in the first place.

VAR Review: Unpacking Fulham's 3 red cards at Man United, Newcastle's offside goal

In this week's VAR Review: Unpacking Fulham's meltdown at Manchester United and Newcastle's goal disallowed for offside at Nottingham Forest.

www.espn.co.uk

 

[Cochraam]

View attachment 124087

Dale Johnson on ESPN have the most thorough analysis of VAR situations online. We have all experienced situations where we say 'VAR hasn't overturned it but if it hadn't been given, VAR would have never given it'. Well the highlighted above confirms that this is not only a saying but actually ingrained in the VAR rule book.

The question is not 'Was it a penalty?', instead it is 'If the Ref gave it then it is a penalty and if the Ref didn't then it is not', and when that is the case you really do wonder why we have VAR in the first place.

VAR Review: Unpacking Fulham's 3 red cards at Man United, Newcastle's offside goal

In this week's VAR Review: Unpacking Fulham's meltdown at Manchester United and Newcastle's goal disallowed for offside at Nottingham Forest.

www.espn.co.uk

Wow! How VAR is practiced in the Premier League seems almost intentionally designed to get the worst possible outcomes. The fundamental flaw in VAR is trying to fit it within a regime where essentially the on-field referee is deemed supreme and correct by fact and VAR is only supposed to step in for the poorly understood "clear and obvious" errors. But we all get to see everything in HD, slow-mo from 5 angles, and we can all see the bad decisions happen.

I think ultimately there needs to be a system where the VAR referee is considered as powerful and "correct" as the on-field referee and that they are essentially considered co-equal officials, so the VAR official could intervene more confidently with their own perception (and technology) rather than trying to determine the degree of potential error in the on-field ref's decision.

It all makes me think of a cautionary quote from when VAR was announced from an NHL fan on their experience with video review, that essentially video review eliminates the uncertainty in the perception of what happened but highlights the uncertainty in the rules of the game. We're definitely seeing that as there are lots of borderline cases of penalties, handballs, and even red cards, but the decisions seem inconsistent moment by moment and it's unclear what truly counts for various offenses. Anyway, hard to think of a way to implement video review more poorly.

 

[BorjeSpurs]

Wow! How VAR is practiced in the Premier League seems almost intentionally designed to get the worst possible outcomes. The fundamental flaw in VAR is trying to fit it within a regime where essentially the on-field referee is deemed supreme and correct by fact and VAR is only supposed to step in for the poorly understood "clear and obvious" errors. But we all get to see everything in HD, slow-mo from 5 angles, and we can all see the bad decisions happen.

I think ultimately there needs to be a system where the VAR referee is considered as powerful and "correct" as the on-field referee and that they are essentially considered co-equal officials, so the VAR official could intervene more confidently with their own perception (and technology) rather than trying to determine the degree of potential error in the on-field ref's decision.

It all makes me think of a cautionary quote from when VAR was announced from an NHL fan on their experience with video review, that essentially video review eliminates the uncertainty in the perception of what happened but highlights the uncertainty in the rules of the game. We're definitely seeing that as there are lots of borderline cases of penalties, handballs, and even red cards, but the decisions seem inconsistent moment by moment and it's unclear what truly counts for various offenses. Anyway, hard to think of a way to implement video review more poorly.

This is exactly right.

I would have three qualifed refs in the VAR room, looking at each big decision independently (without communication) and clicking a button for e.g. penalty or no penalty. If there is a 2-1 for overturning nothing happens because it is effectively 2-2 (including the on field referee) but if all three goes against the decision it is then overturned without the need for the ref to look at the monitor.

 

[spursfan1991]

We have been hard done by VAR this season, prior to this game we were -4 points due to VAR

www.espn.co.uk/football/english-premier-league/story/4722849/how-var-decisions-have-affected-every-premier-league-club-in-2022-23%3fplatform=amp

 

[Misfit]

VAR is still and will always remain shit. Just as many bad decisions as before but now with the added nugget of sucking all moments of spontaneous joy from the game.

 

[luRRka]

VAR is still and will always remain shit. Just as many bad decisions as before but now with the added nugget of sucking all moments of spontaneous joy from the game.

Plus the fact something should be done about poor decisions in game and they still aren't. At least before VAR the ref made a mistake and that was it. Instead it's now the ref has made a mistake, VAR reinforces the mistake instead of doing what it's designed to do.

Plus how many obvious offside goals were given when it was left to assistants. Far fewer than the goals getting chalked off by someone drawing lines on players that are level to the naked eye. And the fact the assistants would raise their flags immediately meant the rest didn't play out, the goal wasn't scored, the celebrations weren't celebrated only for it to be chalked off

 

[mil1lion]

So a kick to the face with the boot head height and studs forward is not looked at as dangerous foul play by VAR?

Another joke one

 

[mano-obe]

Someone needs to list all the ones that have gone against us. We got lucky against Brighton but it seems every other week we get screwed. This Jota one was questionable and Klopp makes out Liverpool got screwed

 

[BorjeSpurs]

 

[SandroClegane]

But why?

VAR has greatly improved the officiating in some countries, while it's been suspect in others. Rather than getting rid of VAR, we should question why the countries that struggle with it can't integrate best practices from those that do it well.

 

[wrd]

I really hate protests like this, you spent your time to go to the game, you spent your money to get into the stadium, you are doing it as a one off so they know you'll be back next week.

I completely understand that sometimes you have to lose out on thing's yourself during protest but when there's no through line, it's nothing more than a performance that gives the appearance of doing something whilst achieving nothing.

Even worse, as @SandroClegane pointed out, they don't even know what they're protesting.

 

[BorjeSpurs]

But why?

VAR has greatly improved the officiating in some countries, while it's been suspect in others. Rather than getting rid of VAR, we should question why the countries that struggle with it can't integrate best practices from those that do it well.

I'm not the most die-hard protester against VAR but I do appreciate going to games in Sweden where VAR is not implemented (been shut down by members of the clubs due to 51% ownership rule). When your striker is through on goal, you glance over at the linesman and see no raised flag, you know that pure jubilation awaits if the ball hits the net. For most match going fans in Europe that 100% certainty of a goal might well be forever lost.

In which countries have officiating been greatly improved? Is that in any leagues that you follow because otherwise it's easy to think it's better elsewhere (similar to the discussion of bringing in better refs from other countries).

@wrd , they know exactly what they are protesting, not sure what you mean by that. The league & country most similar to the Norwegian league doesn't have VAR implemented and they've raised awareness and furthered the debate in Norway. Sounds like a pretty successful protest to me.

 

[wrd]

I'm not the most die-hard protester against VAR but I do appreciate going to games in Sweden where VAR is not implemented (been shut down by members of the clubs due to 51% ownership rule). When your striker is through on goal, you glance over at the linesman and see no raised flag, you know that pure jubilation awaits if the ball hits the net. For most match going fans in Europe that 100% certainty of a goal might well be forever lost.

In which countries have officiating been greatly improved? Is that in any leagues that you follow because otherwise it's easy to think it's better elsewhere (similar to the discussion of bringing in better refs from other countries).

@wrd , they know exactly what they are protesting, not sure what you mean by that. The league & country most similar to the Norwegian league doesn't have VAR implemented and they've raised awareness and furthered the debate in Norway. Sounds like a pretty successful protest to me.

Fair enough, I feel that most debate leads to circles without action but happy to agree to disagree. My comment on they don't know what they're protesting is based on them being against VAR when it's just a tool, the tools is fine, the humans tasked with implementing it are the problem. So being against VAR to me, is just naivety or throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

[SandroClegane]

I'm not the most die-hard protester against VAR but I do appreciate going to games in Sweden where VAR is not implemented (been shut down by members of the clubs due to 51% ownership rule). When your striker is through on goal, you glance over at the linesman and see no raised flag, you know that pure jubilation awaits if the ball hits the net. For most match going fans in Europe that 100% certainty of a goal might well be forever lost.

In which countries have officiating been greatly improved? Is that in any leagues that you follow because otherwise it's easy to think it's better elsewhere (similar to the discussion of bringing in better refs from other countries).

@wrd , they know exactly what they are protesting, not sure what you mean by that. The league & country most similar to the Norwegian league doesn't have VAR implemented and they've raised awareness and furthered the debate in Norway. Sounds like a pretty successful protest to me.

Sure, but what about the fans on the other side of the coin, that realize that the striker was a full yard offside and somehow the linesman missed it? I'm all for human error of the slightest margins, but egregious missed calls have been corrected.

I think Germany has done a pretty great job in general, especially when it comes to speed of review, and I believe it's Ligue 1 that requires the officials to explain the reasoning behind their calls while the review is taking place. Those two factors alone would greatly improve the implementation in the English game.

 

[BorjeSpurs]

The circus continues. Contact not enough? Well it was a stronger contact than the Brentford penalty which was apparently correctly overturned?

 

[Johnny J]

The circus continues. Contact not enough? Well it was a stronger contact than the Brentford penalty which was apparently correctly overturned?

It's a blatant pen on Maddison. The second angle shows he's trying to move backwards and the defender blocks his leg from behind and his momentum takes him over.

 

[Led's Zeppelin]

It's a blatant pen on Maddison. The second angle shows he's trying to move backwards and the defender blocks his leg from behind and his momentum takes him over.

The very slight delay between contact and his fall could make it appear from some angles to be a dive, but if you look carefully you see you’re correct and of course if you prevent someone moving their foot while their body’s moving, there will be a slight delay before they inevitably fall.

And that is what VAR shows : Penalty.

vAR is there to enable these first impressions to be verified or corrected. But it seems that’s not how they use it… I don’ t believe it’s prejudice for or against either team , I think it’s powerful confirmation bias at work.

Either way, it’s doing at least as much harm as good.

 

[BehindEnemyLines]

The circus continues. Contact not enough? Well it was a stronger contact than the Brentford penalty which was apparently correctly overturned?

Imagine the Son one was in the Brentford penalty box.........would that have been given as a penalty to Son? I think it would! I think Son has been tripped, as the contact is because the Brentford player has moved his foot into Son's path