Sherwood has gone!

[Nebby]

I can't speak for everyone, but I will personally understand why he is kept on, even if he doesn't win his last two games, as his ability to churn out points has been very respectable under the circumstances. I don't want him to be kept on, but I would understand perfectly the logic if he is.

The difference for me was mostly a footballing, long term rational. I could see with AVB evidence of what his philosophy was. Lets not get into whether we liked it or not - it's been done to death - and all of us accept he didn't get various aspects right some of the time. But I could at least see a formula that suggested a coach who believed in something and could teach it. That, for me, was encouraging for the medium/long term.

I would live with him (Sherwood) doing his impression of a slightly stupider, hypocritical, chippy, Mourinho wannabe if his football showed some kind of coached or tactical coherence. But we are a fucking mess. Surely no-one is enjoying some of the utter shite we have been playing lately ? Favourites can play shit every week and are undroppable, many bought by others seems to get treated like the bastard son of a previous lover, tactically we are embarrassing bad and there is no sign whatsoever of methodology. Tactically flexibility is great, but some of the ideas coming out of the Ferdinand/Sherwood/Ramsey axis of ingenuity are fucking ludicrous. Chadli as a CM ? Sandro and Capoue are the same ? DM's are moribund ? Eriksen LW in a 442 ?

The constant stream of self contradictory bullshit and sniping at everyone from the chairman, Baldini, AVB, the players (the foreign ones mostly) to the fans is just the verbal diarrhoea icing on a shit cake for me.

But like I said, his points tally has been decent, so if he's kept on I'll understand why.

But we've done OK results-wise with Chadli in the middle, haven't we? Three wins and a draw. Not too shabby.

And Eriksen's no more playing left wing than Modric did when he first arrived. He plays a far more fluid role, drifting inside and between the lines.

As for Sandro and Capoue? IMHO, that's Sherwood's philosophy right there: creativity and balance over destruction.

 

[Smellysk]

People seem to be feeling a bit sorry for Tim lately, speculation over one's job is never nice but we have to remember, he was extremely lucky to have landed this opportunity, he's literally learning on the job, with a top PL team, this isn't something that happens a lot and comparisons to Rodgers are ridiculous. He's had a few decent results, but our squad was ridiculously underachieving and is very talented, Im sure I could even manage a few decent results with that group of players, however its his results against the top managers and clubs which is the real factor, and it's been awful. My opinion of him since day one hasn't changed, regardless of his league record. He wears his heart on his sleeve which I like but he's completely under-qualified and inexperienced to manage a PL team, he's failed his A licence twice and the FA rushed through his Pro licence at the request of Spurs. He mainly plays direct, hit and hope football at its worst, and seems to have no clue how to change a game. Tactically, I've seen nothing from him since he took over, apart from the quick switch to 4-4-2. His substitutions and selections have been baffling at times. His comments on Paulinho, Sandro etc. "I didn’t realise he was that good” imo either showed he hasn't watched him before or he hasn't got a clue...and playing Bentelab against Yaya, Fernandino and the likes is ridiculously naive, even tho he has played well against weaker opposition. We look even shakier at the back since he's took over and he hasn't managed to blend in ANY of the summer signings (except Eriksen & Chadli, both out of position), if anything we look more disjointed eg. Eriksen on the left, Holtby on loan, Lamela disappearance, Capoue dropped for a kid etc. We've gotten away with some really, really lucky results since he took over too, Everton, Stoke & Swansea in particular stand out, cup results have been dire and lets be honest, if it wasn't for Adebayor's resurgence we would be sitting 9th or 10th in the league....

Thanks, but no thanks Tim, go cut your cloth at a team with lower expectations and come back stronger....There's too many top, top managers available this summer to pass up....Whoever takes over, I'd love a clear direction/philosophy....club feels directionless at the moment....

De Boer for me......

Can work within a budget, which we'll need when the new stadium gets underway...

Good record of bringing/working with youth, could really help, Bentaleb, Carroll, Pritchard, Kane etc.

Plays attacking, progressive football, the "Tottenham Way"...

Decent European experience/record....

Knows Eriksen and Vert very well, and is a big enough name to attract top players and keep some of ours....

He seems willing to hang around and actually build something, which is what Spurs are crying out for....

And he's a winner....

 

[YiddoInPoland]

I can't speak for everyone, but I will personally understand why he is kept on, even if he doesn't win his last two games, as his ability to churn out points has been very respectable under the circumstances. I don't want him to be kept on, but I would understand perfectly the logic if he is.

The difference for me was mostly a footballing, long term rational. I could see with AVB evidence of what his philosophy was. Lets not get into whether we liked it or not - it's been done to death - and all of us accept he didn't get various aspects right some of the time. But I could at least see a formula that suggested a coach who believed in something and could teach it. That, for me, was encouraging for the medium/long term.

I would live with him (Sherwood) doing his impression of a slightly stupider, hypocritical, chippy, Mourinho wannabe if his football showed some kind of coached or tactical coherence. But we are a fucking mess. Surely no-one is enjoying some of the utter shite we have been playing lately ? Favourites can play shit every week and are undroppable, many bought by others seems to get treated like the bastard son of a previous lover, tactically we are embarrassing bad and there is no sign whatsoever of methodology. Tactically flexibility is great, but some of the ideas coming out of the Ferdinand/Sherwood/Ramsey axis of ingenuity are fucking ludicrous. Chadli as a CM ? Sandro and Capoue are the same ? DM's are moribund ? Eriksen LW in a 442 ?

The constant stream of self contradictory bullshit and sniping at everyone from the chairman, Baldini, AVB, the players (the foreign ones mostly) to the fans is just the verbal diarrhoea icing on a shit cake for me.

But like I said, his points tally has been decent, so if he's kept on I'll understand why.

Its this for me. I didn't like him much to begin with, but if he had started showing that there was at least a plan then people would have warmed to him, finishing 5/6 whatever if you could see it shaping into something then yeah, give him time to build on it. But he fact we haven't seen anything like that says to me next season you would see us losing points to teams way below our standard simply because we have been worked out.

I watched the stoke highlights and honestly the way they just walked through to the 18 yard box was scary, and this was Stoke.

 

[FinnYid]

Tim wouldn't have reached that points total by himself though. He hasn't been in charge for the whole season.

And you know this how? I mean suppose he wins last two, then he has 2,04 points per game on his 22 while AVB had 1,6875 in his 16 and you seem adamant Sherwood wouldn't gotten that had he been in charge on those 16. On what evidence can you be so adamant?

 

[SteveH]

People seem to be feeling a bit sorry for Tim lately, speculation over one's job is never nice but we have to remember, he was extremely lucky to have landed this opportunity, he's literally learning on the job, with a top PL team, this isn't something that happens a lot, comparisons to Rodgers are ridiculous. He's had a few decent results, but our squad was ridiculously underachieving and is very talented, Im sure I could even manage a few decent results with that group of players, however its his results against the top managers and clubs which is the real factor, and it's been awful. My opinion of him since day one hasn't changed, regardless of his league record. He wears his heart on his sleeve which I like but he's completely under-qualified and inexperienced to manage a PL team, he's failed his A licence twice and the FA rushed through his Pro licence at the request of Spurs. He mainly plays direct, hit and hope football at its worst, and seems to have no clue how to change a game. Tactically, I've seen nothing from him since he took over, apart from the quick switch to 4-4-2. His substitutions and selections have been baffling at times. His comments on Paulinho, Sandro etc. "I didn’t realise he was that good” imo either showed he hasn't watched him before or he hasn't got a clue...and playing Bentelab against Yaya, Fernandino and the likes is ridiculously naive, even tho he has played well against weaker opposition. We look even shakier at the back since he's took over and he hasn't managed to blend in ANY of the summer signings (except Eriksen & Chadli, both out of position), if anything we look more disjointed eg. Eriksen on the left, Holtby on loan, Lamela disappearance, Capoue dropped for a kid etc. We've gotten away with some really, really lucky results since he took over too, Everton, Stoke & Swansea in particular stand out, cup results have been dire and lets be honest, if it wasn't for Adebayor's resurgence we would be sitting 9th or 10th in the league....Thanks, but no thanks Tim, go cut your cloth at a team with lower expectations and come back stronger....

There's too many top, top managers available this summer to pass up....Whoever takes over, I'd love a clear direction/philosophy....club feels directionless at the moment....

De Boer for me......

Can work within a budget, which we'll need when the new stadium gets underway...

Good record of bringing/working with youth, could really help, Bentaleb, Carroll, Pritchard, Kane etc.

Plays attacking, progressive football, the "Tottenham Way"...

Decent European experience/record....

Knows Eriksen and Vert very well, and is a big enough name to attract top players and keep some of ours....

He seems willing to hang around and actually build something, which is what Spurs are crying out for

And he's a winner....

So was Steve McClaren in Holland.

We need to stop looking for heros and quick fixes. I'm not pro or anti Tim. Just fed up with crap attitude that the next Carlos Kickaball will be our salvation.

 

[joelstinton14]

I do feel for Tim. But i think it was clear even in December this was temporary. All he had to do was keep his head down and get on with and see where we are at the end of the season. The Harry Redknapp and Sir Alex school of talking is way out of line for his experience and the contract he is on. He does seem he is becoming an increasingly isolated figure here. He is right, someone is telling porkies, and it is probably us. But at the same time, it is pretty naive of him to think that he would be kept beyond this season.

I respect the job he has done, he as picked up points, and probably kicked a few players who needed it up the arse. But i agree with the sentiments above really.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

And you know this how? I mean suppose he wins last two, then he has 2,04 points per game on his 22 while AVB had 1,6875 in his 16 and you seem adamant Sherwood wouldn't gotten that had he been in charge on those 16. On what evidence can you be so adamant?

It's personal opinion based on what I have seen of Sherwoods managerial tenure so far. It's no different than those who claim we wouldn't have reached our current points total if we had persisted with AVB.

 

[Franchise60]

Point tallies between seasons don't tell you a great deal without context.

We have taken a big step back this season from our rivals, both in points and h2h.

 

[weststandvoice]

I feel for Tim, like I feel my balls for unusual lumps.

 

[Spursidol]

ESPN.co.uk ‏@ESPNUK ·
If the season started when Tim Sherwood took over, Spurs would be fourth: pic.twitter.com/SJAdziz2Ih (via @Bert_Lines) http://es.pn/1fARYIM

The tweet has the Table showing Spurs in 4th, based upon games when TS was in charge.

Premier League ‏@premierleague ·
April's Barclays Manager of the Month nominations: Tony Pulis, Gus Poyet, Jose Mourinho and Tim Sherwood #BPL

I'm in the camp that says, I think Sherwood may lack the experience to be as successful as we would want next seaason.

However I certainly don't want himm sacked as first tream Head Coach to replace him with someone who is a major risk of failure to take us forward - another Ramos (one good role at Seville, all the previous appointments werre not good), or a Gross (successful manager in a poor league). If those are the type of alternatives we have, I'd certainly vote to retain Shgerwood, for continuity sake - and he has had good features such as playing youth and incrrasing our goal scoring at minimum cost in conceding goals (stats courtesy of @davidmatzdorf ):

AVB: league goals for 15 (0.58/game), against 21 (0.81/game), goal differential -0.23 goals/game
Sherwood: league goals for 37 (1.42/game), against 28 (1.08/game), goal differential +0.35 goals/game

So goals scored per game under Sherwood more than doubled whilst goals conceded per game up by 25%.

And its the goal scoring increase which has led to a better PPG than under AVB, although Sherwood like AVB seemed to have a limited understanding as to how to play the top 4 clubs, and that's the bit of experience which Sherwood needs to gain (or another incoming manager needs to improve on).

 

[DiscoD1882]

A concertina goes both ways, doesn't it?

are you saying that all concertina's are Bi-sexual?

 

[FinnYid]

It's personal opinion based on what I have seen of Sherwoods managerial tenure so far.

From what I've seen we would've gotten more points on early season compared to borefest and stats might hint it that way.

It's no different than those who claim we wouldn't have reached our current points total if we had persisted with AVB.

True - however numbers don't point that way.

 

[Spursidol]

Its this for me. I didn't like him much to begin with, but if he had started showing that there was at least a plan then people would have warmed to him, finishing 5/6 whatever if you could see it shaping into something then yeah, give him time to build on it. But he fact we haven't seen anything like that says to me next season you would see us losing points to teams way below our standard simply because we have been worked out.

I watched the stoke highlights and honestly the way they just walked through to the 18 yard box was scary, and this was Stoke.

The Stoke match was one of the poorest performances under Sherwood without a doubt. But look at Stoke's home results - Spurs achieved more away at Stoke than most of the top 6 clubs did - Stoke's hiome record is very good.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I can't see Sherwood being kept on - I don't think any of us want him to be and I think his recent statements are those of a man who knows he will not be kept on as manager

I think the fact his ppg ratio is good simply highlights the fact that we have a stronger squad of players than most of the league - I don't personally think his involvement has had a direct influence on our abilty to obtain points.

I wouldn't go as far as to state that we've won games in spite of him but what I am trying to say is that we've not one them because of him - just like Di Matteo at Chelsea, they won what they won because of the players abilty alone not because he masterminded it in my opinion.

I also don't want to get back into another AVB debate - I simply want to highlight what I have always said that the record points tally should not be used as evidence in such debates because as this season as shown it can be reached even having had such a poor season due to our relative strength as a squad compared to the bulk of our rivals and I wanted to further highlight how rediculous it was when people suggested the record tally was a better achievement than our previous fourth place finishes.

If people like yourself think they saw enough in AVB's tactics and philosphies to believe he would have got things right that's fine and something we will now never know one way or another - but I don't believe such weight should ever have been placed in the points tally to that debate and in my opinion the fact that we could equal that tally this season highlights why.

I don't want Sherwood to be kept on regardless of his decent ppg ration - frankly because I feel we'd have achieved that had we had no manager or any caretaker due to the players at our disposal and I want us to have a manager who will get us playing better than the sum of our parts and achieving points above and beyond that we naturally would by simply being better than our opponents (like how Fergie managed to get a Utd team to win the legaue at a canter while Moyes has that same team give or take in 7th place)

I want a manager who can get more from the team at his disposal due to their tactics, motivational skills, footballing philosphies and whatever else a manager has up his sleeve to influence the destiny of a club and I don't think Sherwood at this time is a man who can do that

I think the relevance of the us using the argument of our points tally last year was in conjunction with the other factors such as the fact that our team was noticeably weaker as a result of losing Modric and VDV (and Adebayor effectively for much) etc, and the principle opposition were arguably stronger yet we still achieved a record points haul, i.e. better results, and some of us believe this was as a direct result of the influence AVB's methods had. His collective approach, teamwork, our improved work defensively without the ball and desire to keep possession better when we did etc.

What I am saying is, despite my opinion (and yours I believe) that Sherwood's influence in a tactical and coached sense has been minimal for the positive, if the powers that be (and @eddiebailey of course) choose to apply the same logic, and say "just because you can't see it, we think there is method in his madness and the PPG proves this" then I will understand why that happens, I just won't agree with it.


The argument was never for me a simple one of "if the PPG is good, all is good" or "the PPG is proof of a sustainable system". It was that last season, for me, the PPG was evidence of other factors - namely AVB's influence - that I believe I could see in action.

 

[Coyboy]

I think the relevance of the us using the argument of our points tally last year was in conjunction with the other factors such as the fact that our team was noticeably weaker as a result of losing Modric and VDV (and Adebayor effectively for much) etc, and the principle opposition were arguably stronger yet we still achieved a record points haul, i.e. better results, and some of us believe this was as a direct result of the influence AVB's methods had. His collective approach, teamwork, our improved work defensively without the ball and desire to keep possession better when we did etc.

What I am saying is, despite my opinion (and yours I believe) that Sherwood's influence in a tactical and coached sense has been minimal for the positive, if the powers that be (and @eddiebailey of course) choose to apply the same logic, and say "just because you can't see it, we think there is method in his madness and the PPG proves this" then I will understand why that happens, I just won't agree with it.


The argument was never for me a simple one of "if the PPG is good, all is good" or "the PPG is proof of a sustainable system". It was that last season, for me, the PPG was evidence of other factors - namely AVB's influence - that I believe I could see in action.

Also, in greater degree, Gareth Bale.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

But we've done OK results-wise with Chadli in the middle, haven't we? Three wins and a draw. Not too shabby.

And Eriksen's no more playing left wing than Modric did when he first arrived. He plays a far more fluid role, drifting inside and between the lines.

As for Sandro and Capoue? IMHO, that's Sherwood's philosophy right there: creativity and balance over destruction.

There is no balance in having all the creatives you can get on the pitch. That's bias.

Have you watched us recently ? Chadli's been subbed in the last three games and we were outplayed by 10 man Stoke last game because we had no midfield.

Eriksen's wandering about sounds lovely, in practice it's just a tactical mess, puts pressure on an already flimsy two man midfield and a rooky left back who isn't great already.

It's a schoolboy free for all. It's middle school PE teacher tactics.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Also, in greater degree, Gareth Bale.

Not really, Gareth Bale was there the year before, with Modric and VDV and we still didn't have as good set of results.

 

[CrazyHeart]

Pretty much ALL the points under Sherwood have been down to freak moments of individuality, with set pieces while most of our wins have been lucky and against the run of play with little or no team build up play or discernable system. Wanting Tim to stay is like robbing banks to make a buck and remarking at the proceeds. It might work for a while with luck, but soon enough you'll get busted!

 

[EastLondonYid]

One of the main reasons we might equal our points record of 72pts is imo,that we have astonishingly managed to keep the winning mentality we have managed to create over the last 4/5 seasons, beating most of the sides below us.

This is why i truly believe with the right new coach/coaches...and a few key signings, we could be where Liverpool are now next season......and yes i am sober.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Its this for me. I didn't like him much to begin with, but if he had started showing that there was at least a plan then people would have warmed to him, finishing 5/6 whatever if you could see it shaping into something then yeah, give him time to build on it. But he fact we haven't seen anything like that says to me next season you would see us losing points to teams way below our standard simply because we have been worked out.

I watched the stoke highlights and honestly the way they just walked through to the 18 yard box was scary, and this was Stoke.

And this - teams just walking through our midfield - has been a feature of every single game (bar Newcastle pretty much) from Southampton.

Almost certainly a by-product of this ludicrous obsession with not having any busy ****edness in there.