Player Watch Player Watch: Son Heung-min

[cliff jones]

No he didn’t guess, he was advised by his fellow officials (both the linesman and 4th official, and VAR looked at and confirmed) to give the red card.
Why I think this may be upheld and is totally different to other leg breaking tackles that have not resulted in a red before, is because it was a cowardly retribution tackle where he had no chance of winning the ball. It wasn’t a genuine mistimed tackle where players were going for the ball and just got timing wrong. He had one nibble and when that failed, a lunge from behind with zero regard for opponent, and zero chance of winning ball.
No serious injury then yellow card, endangering an opponent through recklessness, red card.
Son obviously did not go out to seriously injure the opponent, but his actions let him down.
Saying that I think it sets a dangerous precedent if red is upheld, and I think a yellow would have been sufficient, but players cannot take law into their own hands.

there are literally two or three tackles like that in every single game- cowardly, no- vengeful, yep. I trust this episode will bring an end to his occasional red mist. A players of his intelligence and temperament should have learnt once and for all from the Lerma provocation.

 

[Trotter]

He clipped his heels. He didn’t endanger the player, Gomes was injured by a freak accident. It was innocuous and there are dozens of those challenges every match day. It wasn’t a red card. Where is your evidence that VAR confirmed it? I’ve watched it numerous times and he didn’t put his finger to his ear at any point, there was no official VAR review, and in real time he looked down at the leg and then brandished the red card - without seeking advice from anybody else.

I think I see where your confusion stems from - the person running up to Atkinson telling him to send Son off was actually Digne, who plays for Everton - not an official.

And yes, he did guess. He looked at the leg and GUESSED Son did the damage. Then he sneakily put the yellow away and got the red out. I don’t know why you think long rambling posts mean you have a point.

I have no confusion, I have been informed by a Premier League Official, and Dermot Gallagher also confirmed after speaking with PGMOL this morning, that both assistant referee and fourth official advised him it was a send off by communications (you know you can tell somebody something electronically, doesn’t have to be face to face), and also that VAR looked at it during the long interval, and also looked to see if Aurier should have been dismissed.

You are totally wrong here. He did nothing to guess at all. He went on the recommendation of all the other offficials.

 

['O Zio]

It's an interesting moment because the vast vast majority of pundits, media, everton fans, general football fans agree it wasn't a Red. So for the PL to stick by their referee will be another instance of the refs decisions feeling untouchable and call their integrity into disrepute imo.

I think this is one of the fundamental flaws in VAR. They constantly talk about not undermining the referee etc. but surely the entire point in having VAR is to get more decisions right. Siding with the referee even when they know that he's wrong purely on the basis of this weird loyalty system is just farcical. Not talking necessarily about the Son incident but you hear it all the time that they don't want to "undermine the on-field official" but I don't really get why

 

['O Zio]

They are setting a dangerous precedent with this ruling. Everytime a player is pushed over advertising boards or into the crowd can be construed as potentially dangerous, every shove at pace, every trip at pace. Any clash of heads where a player goes in slightly late. The Gomes arm to Sons face could be even have been classed as potentially endangering a player. It's getting beyond a joke and is ruining the game.

The trouble is, setting a precedent implies that there's some kind of consistency in the decision making but so far the VAR system has been such a mess and seemingly random that I don't think any such precedent even factors into it.

 

[Spurrific]

I have no confusion, I have been informed by a Premier League Official, and Dermot Gallagher also confirmed after speaking with PGMOL this morning, that both assistant referee and fourth official advised him it was a send off by communications (you know you can tell somebody something electronically, doesn’t have to be face to face), and also that VAR looked at it during the long interval, and also looked to see if Aurier should have been dismissed.

You are totally wrong here. He did nothing to guess at all. He went on the recommendation of all the other offficials.

Nah, I'm not totally wrong - in the slightest, you're just clearly talking utter waffle. I couldn't care less if Atkinson himself told you he conferred with the other "offficials", he didn't. You can watch it happen in real time. He didn't. He was there on his own and made the decision, only Son and Digne were near him. VAR might have been checking it and gave him the all-clear to go through with his incorrect decision after, but he very clearly made the decision to upgrade to red after seeing the injury for himself.

Literally everybody in the game is saying it wasn't a red card, your good friends at the PGMOL looking out for one of their own doesn't change the fact he dropped a clanger.

He guessed, but I can't be arsed going back and forth with you - because, with all due respect, I find all of your posts insanely boring and you're being pig-headed when you're just wrong - then falsifying evidence to back up your inherently wrong opinion.

 

[Deleted member 27995]

People defending Martin Atkinson again?

 

[Trotter]

Nah, I'm not totally wrong - in the slightest, you're just clearly talking utter waffle. I couldn't care less if Atkinson himself told you he conferred with the other "offficials", he didn't. You can watch it happen in real time. He didn't. He was there on his own and made the decision, only Son and Digne were near him. VAR might have been checking it and gave him the all-clear to go through with his incorrect decision after, but he very clearly made the decision to upgrade to red after seeing the injury for himself.

Literally everybody in the game is saying it wasn't a red card, your good friends at the PGMOL looking out for one of their own doesn't change the fact he dropped a clanger.

He guessed, but I can't be arsed going back and forth with you - because, with all due respect, I find all of your posts insanely boring and you're being pig-headed when you're just wrong - then falsifying evidence to back up your inherently wrong opinion.

For ffs, what do you not understand, the linesman and 4th officials are in constant contact with each other, they are talking throughout the whole match, without the need to put their finger in their ear. They are wired up.
They spoke, Atkinson was advised not to issue the yellow.
Just because he doesn’t walk over and physically talk to them does not mean a thing.
Keep doubling down on your total drivel, and by the way I think a yellow would have been right in this situation, but the nonsense you are spouting about him guessing and not understanding they are in contact the whole time is bewildering.

 

[Spurrific]

For ffs, what do you not understand, the linesman and 4th officials are in constant contact with each other, they are talking throughout the whole match, without the need to put their finger in their ear. They are wired up.
They spoke, Atkinson was advised not to issue the yellow.
Just because he doesn’t walk over and physically talk to them does not mean a thing.
Keep doubling down on your total drivel

He was the only **** right next to the incident and the only person right next to the injury - what do you actually think the others could have told him in that split second between him pocketing the yellow and retrieving the red? You're the one talking insane deluded rubbish pal, due to your weird affinity with match officials.

You're a Sunday League referee aren't you?

 

[Trotter]

He was the only **** right next to the incident and the only person right next to the injury - what do you actually think the others could have told him in that split second between him pocketing the yellow and retrieving the red? You're the one talking insane deluded rubbish pal, due to your weird affinity with match officials.

You're a Sunday League referee aren't you?

No, I was a Football League referee, and Premier League linesman.
It wasnt a split second between pocketing the yellow, and issuing the red by the way, more like a minute.
Difference between me and you, I understand the laws of football, I have been trained to understand situations, and I look at things objectively, not totally nonsensically and blinkered

 

[Spurrific]

No, I was a Football League referee, and Premier League linesman.
It wasnt a split second between pocketing the yellow, and issuing the red by the way, more like a minute.
Difference between me and you, I understand the laws of football, I have been trained to, and I look at things objectively, not totally nonsensically and blinkered

But all the evidence suggests otherwise? No wonder officiating has been dog shit for years if deluded bods like you have been tasked with running the line. You could've hit the big time, been in the centre circle at kick off - but now? You're a desk-jockey pencil-pusher, just waiting for your chance to get back out on the field. Consigned to sitting on a forum, taking up arms for your incompetent brethren whenever their integrity is called into question.

 

[ReadieSpur]

Wow. Burn.

 

[Trotter]

But all the evidence suggests otherwise? No wonder officiating has been dog shit for years if deluded bods like you have been tasked with running the line. You could've hit the big time, been in the centre circle at kick off - but now? You're a desk-jockey pencil pusher, just waiting for your chance to get back out on the field. Consigned to sitting on a forum, taking up arms for your incompetent brethren whenever their integrity is called into question.

No, I had to retire from it actually, and now travel the country and Europe home and away every game watching Spurs.
What on earth do you mean all the evidence suggests otherwise ?
All the evidence suggests the referees know the laws, and 99% of football fans don’t have a clue, just want everything given for them, and nothing against, irrelevant of the offence.
VAR has been implemented very poorly in this League, and personally think Riley should offer up his resignation, personally think a yellow would have sufficed yesterday, but a red card is not wrong in law.
But also think we should have had 2 penalties awarded against us, and no Son should not have been awarded one

 

[Spurrific]

No, I had to retire from it actually.
What on earth do you mean all the evidence suggests otherwise ?
All the evidence suggests the referees know the laws, and 99% of football fans don’t have a clue, just want everything given for them, and nothing against, irrelevant of the offence.
VAR has been implemented very poorly in this League, and personally think Riley should offer up his resignation, personally think a yellow would have sufficed yesterday, but a red card is not wrong in law.
But also think we should have had 2 penalties awarded against us, and no Son should not have been awarded one

You've asked for this. I didn't want to pull rank, but here's what Mark Halsey said, a former "top referee" not an imaginary linesman:

I watched Son Heung-Min’s reckless challenge on Andre Gomes and thought the same as Martin Atkinson - yellow card.

The Tottenham forward denied a promising attack but I didn’t think it was a serious foul play challenge and a red card.

Son’s foul did not endanger the player’s safety and it was so unfortunate that Everton midfielder Gomes’ studs caught in the turf before his sickening collision with Serge Aurier.

Initially, Atkinson had a yellow card in his hand but having seen the reaction on the player’s faces and the crowd he gave himself more thinking time by putting it back in his pocket.

With emotions running high, Atkinson then issued a red card on the basis of his human response.

Atkinson should not receive any criticism because any referee in that horrible position would have done the same.

We do not know if VAR official Anthony Taylor got involved but the cold technology could have helped Atkinson.

Son has been red carded for the unfortunate consequences of what happened next, not for the foul itself.

So I have to ask the question, since when did the laws of the game say the outcome of a foul dictates the appropriate disciplinary action? It’s not in the laws of the game.

It’s a wrongful dismissal for Son and if VAR had got involved, I believe the South Korean would not have been sent off.

Tottenham boss Mauricio Pochettino says the club will appeal and I believe they will have every chance of the decision being overturned.

A Premier League statement last night tried to protect the referee and justify the decision. But, in truth, that didn’t need to be issued so soon because everyone in football will only be thinking about the welfare of Gomes.

It wasn't a red card. All evidence in this thread suggests you don't have a clue - I couldn't care less which lines you imagined running up and down.

 

[Trotter]

You've asked for this. I didn't want to pull rank, but here's what Mark Halsey said, a former "top referee" not an imaginary linesman:



It wasn't a red card. All evidence in this thread suggests you don't have a clue - I couldn't care less which lines you imagined running up and down.

And I have said on numerous occasions that I thought a yellow card would have been appropriate.
Should I add not been able to read and comprehend things to your other idiosyncrasies/ faults?
And seriously just realised I am having conversation with someone that started Poch out thread because he couldn’t handle the “bantz” that other clubs fans were giving him.

 

[JonnySpurs]

"Son has been red carded for the unfortunate consequences of what happened next, not for the foul itself."

This is it, plain and simple.

If common sense is applied here then the red card will be overturned, sadly there is often a serious lacking of common sense in these appeal hearings. The world and it's dog, including the Andre Gomes' teammates, have told Son he was not to blame. If the red card stands then the powers that be are essentially saying that Son is to blame and that there needs to be scapegoat for what was a horrible accident.

Hopefully this independent panel will be aware of the general consensus that Son was not at fault and the red card will be rescinded.

 

[wrd]

I'm losing all hope of competent decisions when I've read the fucking nonsense that Dermot has chucked out today:

DERMOT SAYS: Whatever the decision made on the day pales into insignificance for what happened to Gomes. I wish him a speedy recovery. I just hope Martin Atkinson gets the support network he deserves because people will say it wasn't a red card - they may well be right - but if you're in that situation at that time I can fully understand why Atkinson took the action he did. I defy any person refereeing at that level and to be involved in that situation to put their hand up and say 'I'd have done it differently'.

So he needs a support network because people will say it wasn't a red card, so he needs a support network to support him because he gave a wrong decision. Yes I'll put my hands up and say I'd have done it differently because I watched it live, thought it was a yellow, saw multiple replays and my opinion didn't waver once.

Next on the Dermot Rollercoaster was his view on the Liverpool situation:

DERMOT'S VERDICT: Correct call. Clubs can have no argument about the technology used.
DERMOT SAYS: The technology has said it's offside. It's as accurate as possible. Everybody signed up to the technology, everybody knows there is no latitude in offside decision. It's either offside or onside. There's no debate. The lines favour the defender in this instance so it's offside.

Look how defensive that is, correct call because the clubs agreed. Justifying poor decisions because well that's what people signed up for, how fucking stupid is that. How can somebody who was trusted at the top level to referee a game not comprehend that the technology can be incorrectly used. Clubs didn't sign up for the fucking shambles that is the referee's making errors with their line placement, going as far as to replace the line if they don't get the desired result the first time.

 

[jacko73]

No, I had to retire from it actually, and now travel the country and Europe home and away every game watching Spurs.
What on earth do you mean all the evidence suggests otherwise ?
All the evidence suggests the referees know the laws, and 99% of football fans don’t have a clue, just want everything given for them, and nothing against, irrelevant of the offence.
VAR has been implemented very poorly in this League, and personally think Riley should offer up his resignation, personally think a yellow would have sufficed yesterday, but a red card is not wrong in law.
But also think we should have had 2 penalties awarded against us, and no Son should not have been awarded one

Hi that is interesting that you did not think that Son should have had one. I think we have now had 2 situations that I have never seen before the defenders are tripping up but falling diagonally into the the player (Mina and Lascells) do you not think this is impeding the striker? You can see its not natural to fall to the side, but they are gaining an advantage by obstructing the forward and getting away with it.

 

[Trotter]

Hi that is interesting that you did not think that Son should have had one. I think we have now had 2 situations that I have never seen before the defenders are tripping up but falling diagonally into the the player (Mina and Lascells) do you not think this is impeding the striker? You can see its not natural to fall to the side, but they are gaining an advantage by obstructing the forward and getting away with it.

I felt the contact was minimal and accidental, nowhere near enough to affect Son, who then just dived instead of staying on his feet, after realising he wasted the opportunity.
So far after looking at MOTD last night, and watching Sky today, have not seen one person say they thought it was a penalty.

 

[Spurrific]

And I have said on numerous occasions that I thought a yellow card would have been appropriate.
Should I add not been able to read and comprehend things to your other idiosyncrasies/ faults?
And seriously just realised I am having conversation with someone that started Poch out thread because he couldn’t handle the “bantz” that other clubs fans were giving him.

Ahhhh, it's embarrassing this, really. You've just attempted to insult my comprehension - then said I started the "Poch out" thread. Must be really awkward for you, because I didn't do that? Do you need a little help with the difference between "Poch Out" and "Next Spurs Manager"? Do you also need somebody to explain what "tongue-in-cheek" means?

 

[Deleted member 27995]

I felt the contact was minimal and accidental, nowhere near enough to affect Son, who then just dived, after realising he wasted the opportunity.
So far after looking at MOTD last night, and watching Sky today, have not seen one person say they thought it was a penalty.

Yeah but Dan James was a pen ...

Give over mate, it's clearly not governed by the rules otherwise you would see consistency from match to match.

Basically officials aren't held accountable for their shit decisions and it's starting to show.