Player Watch Player Watch - Lucas Moura

[wrd]

It’s a case of sell 2 and buy 1.

Is it though? Jose has clearly set up so we have 2 forwards who are our primary goal getters and he's asking the 3rd winger to work extremely hard for the team. I thought Moura the back end of last season had his most consistent period for the club and was very strong even though he didn't score many. Bergwijn as I've said above could have done better with some chances in recent games but in terms of his impact over the course of 90 minutes I much prefer the effort he's putting in the last 4 games compared to when he first joined and he scored the odd goal and was invisible for 90 minutes.

Obviously I'd love our 3rd winger to contribute more and also put the defensive shift but I think some of you expect way too much. Jose has typically always gone for a team where the 3rd winger is more about defensive work.

Frankly I think some of you focus too much on goals and assist (not directed at who I quoted) I see people lamenting Lo Celso and Ndombele for lack of goal and assist contributions, but don't take into account their actual role within Jose system. A system which has us firing on all cylinders atm and is working.

 

[wrd]

In other words, he's being asked to perform the duties of a fullback, in which case we may as well play Doherty. At least Doherty has an assist to his name, and knows how to play a decent ball into the box.
Also, solely on goals and assists? Did you read my next sentence? Bergwijn has no pace. He gets beaten to the ball easily by every opposition fullback. In a gameplan where we're dependent on fast transition counterattack, pace up front can be a very valuable asset, just look at most of Son's goals this year. It's particularly valuable with a player like Kane, who's one of the best final third passers in the world.

With Lucas, at the very least Kane would have another pacey option Kane can reliably send through balls to. Bergwijn never beats anyone.


See above.

I'm also a big advocate for Lo Celso at RW. In the 5 minutes he played there in the Europa League, he dribbled past an opponent more times than Bergwijn has all season.

I'm not against Lucas, I just think your criticism of Bergwijn is harsh compared to what he's actually done for us in recent games, You can talk about him lacking pace but it's very clear to me that he is trusted in the build up play for our moves more so than Moura. Moura though fast lacks intelligence on the break sometimes which can be ridiculously frustrating, his decision making such as the runs he chooses he blocks passing lanes and things of that nature, something Bergwijn is clearly trusted to do.

 

[GodGomes]

Is it though? Jose has clearly set up so we have 2 forwards who are our primary goal getters and he's asking the 3rd winger to work extremely hard for the team. I thought Moura the back end of last season had his most consistent period for the club and was very strong even though he didn't score many. Bergwijn as I've said above could have done better with some chances in recent games but in terms of his impact over the course of 90 minutes I much prefer the effort he's putting in the last 4 games compared to when he first joined and he scored the odd goal and was invisible for 90 minutes.

Obviously I'd love our 3rd winger to contribute more and also put the defensive shift but I think some of you expect way too much. Jose has typically always gone for a team where the 3rd winger is more about defensive work.

Frankly I think some of you focus too much on goals and assist (not directed at who I quoted) I see people lamenting Lo Celso and Ndombele for lack of goal and assist contributions, but don't take into account their actual role within Jose system. A system which has us firing on all cylinders atm and is working.

2011–12 Real Madrid CF season - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

people clearly have no clue about how Mourinho sets up his teams, so there's really no point arguing with them. goals and assists are eye-catching for the laymen - i for one prefer to just sit back and see where he takes us

 

[Duck]

Frankly I think some of you focus too much on goals and assist (not directed at who I quoted) I see people lamenting Lo Celso and Ndombele for lack of goal and assist contributions, but don't take into account their actual role within Jose system. A system which has us firing on all cylinders atm and is working.

Except we just drew with Crystal Palace? Even if you account for their goalkeeper saves, we barely created anything in the final third, particularly in the second half, and one of the main reasons for that is Bergwijn being a weak link.
I don't buy possession retention as an argument because we haven't been a possession team all season. The main argument for him being in the team is defensive contribution, but at the very least I would expect some degree of threat in the final third. Bergwijn has no pace, no final ball, no shot.
Lucas would put in the same defensive contribution, but I maintain he'd be far more damaging in the final third, even if his last 18 months haven't been the best.

When Mourinho won the title with Chelsea in 2015 with 87 points, he had Eden Hazard, Diego Costa, Willian and Oscar across the front 4. Bergwijn would get nowhere near that team, absolutely nowhere near it.

 

[wrd]

2011–12 Real Madrid CF season - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

people clearly have no clue about how Mourinho sets up his teams, so there's really no point arguing with them. goals and assists are eye-catching for the laymen - i for one prefer to just sit back and see where he takes us

Exactly mate and I've been banging the madrid comparisons since he arrived and it's interesting to see it coming to pass with us, There's no way that Son and Kane produce the ridiculous numbers they are if we don't set up this way, it's clear we have a specific plan and one which has worked extremely well for him in the past as you alluded to.

 

[wrd]

Except we just drew with Crystal Palace? Even if you account for their goalkeeper saves, we barely created anything in the final third, particularly in the second half, and one of the main reasons for that is Bergwijn being a weak link.
I don't buy possession retention as an argument because we haven't been a possession team all season. The main argument for him being in the team is defensive contribution, but at the very least I would expect some degree of threat in the final third. Bergwijn has no pace, no final ball, no shot.
Lucas would put in the same defensive contribution, but I maintain he'd be far more damaging in the final third, even if his last 18 months haven't been the best.

When Mourinho won the title with Chelsea in 2015 with 87 points, he had Eden Hazard, Diego Costa, Willian and Oscar across the front 4. Bergwijn would get nowhere near that team, absolutely nowhere near it.

And tell me how many goals and assists did Oscar and Willian contribute? Because I can tell you right now they didn't contribute many there's not a chance that got 15 goals between them and I doubt they even broke 15 assists. they had specific role within the squad which allowed Hazard and Costa to shine.

I don't think he was the best choice against Palace, for me it was clear we needed Bale in that role but he was ill and we went too defensive, Bergwijn however was not the only attacking player who contributed fuck all in that 2nd half and clearly you got annoyed because Van Aaanholt did him for pace once (and I know that because I got annoyed by it). My issue with you specifically with regards to Bergwijn is how you don't seem to appreciate what role he is doing overall. Clearly Jose does not agree with you that Moura would work aswell defensively because he's picking bergwijn for the role so you can't just assume he would put the same shift in and you can't simply say he'd be more damaging in the final 3rd and it be true because the numbers simply do not back that up that assertion.

 

[Duck]

And tell me how many goals and assists did Oscar and Willian contribute? Because I can tell you right now they didn't contribute many there's not a chance that got 15 goals between them and I doubt they even broke 15 assists. they had specific role within the squad which allowed Hazard and Costa to shine.

Oscar got 6 goals and 8 assists, which is 14 direct score involvements altogether. I think that's enough to effectively throw this paragraph out the window.

But as you said regarding Ndombele and Lo Celso, it's not all about goals and assists either. I'm a big fan of what Ndombele has brought to the team this year, and even without getting an assist stat, he's had significant involvements in multiple goals we've scored this season.

As for Bergwijn, there's nothing. No goals, no assists, not involved in the buildup for any goals, can't dribble past anyone, can't outpace any defender. No good for a winger, even for one asked to do a defensive job.

I don't think he was the best choice against Palace, for me it was clear we needed Bale in that role but he was ill and we went too defensive, Bergwijn however was not the only attacking player who contributed fuck all in that 2nd half

The thing is, I accept Kane and Son aren't always going to produce, which makes it all the more important to have another outlet in the final third, be it creative or goalscoring. Bergwijn is neither.

and clearly you got annoyed because Van Aaanholt did him for pace once (and I know that because I got annoyed by it).

Once?
He loses the pace battles every single time, against every single fullback. This wasn't just one instance against Crystal Palace, he's never quick enough.

My issue with you specifically with regards to Bergwijn is how you don't see to appreciate what role he is doing overall. Clearly Jose does not agree with you that Moura would work aswell defensively because he's picking bergwijn for the role so you can't just assume he would put the same shift in and you can't simply say he'd be more damaging in the final 3rd and it be true because the numbers simply do not back that up that assertion.

You can't say the opposite either. Lucas hasn't been given a consistent run of games yet, and Lo Celso has only played in RW for 5 minutes in the Europa League.
My view is that Mourinho is giving Bergwijn a run of games to show something. With the Man City, Chelsea and Arsenal games producing a total of 7 points, things were going well enough to justify not making any changes, even though Bergwijn contributed nothing in the final third. Now that we've dropped points to Crystal Palace from a winning position, and Bergwijn had an atrocious game, there's far stronger incentive to make a change. It's not the first time we've struggled to create scoring opportunities against a lesser team this year, and it's going to continue to happen while there is a weak link in the final third.

 

[wrd]

Oscar got 6 goals and 8 assists, which is 14 direct score involvements altogether. I think that's enough to effectively throw this paragraph out the window.

And Willian, who is doing Bergwijns role got a total of 2 goals and 3 assists so 8 goals between them and 11 assists so as I said, they didn't break 15 goals or even 15 assists.

But as you said regarding Ndombele and Lo Celso, it's not all about goals and assists either. I'm a big fan of what Ndombele has brought to the team this year, and even without getting an assist stat, he's had significant involvements in multiple goals we've scored this season.

As for Bergwijn, there's nothing. No goals, no assists, not involved in the buildup for any goals, can't dribble past anyone, can't outpace any defender. No good for a winger, even for one asked to do a defensive job.


The thing is, I accept Kane and Son aren't always going to produce, which makes it all the more important to have another outlet in the final third, be it creative or goalscoring. Bergwijn is neither.

Once?
He loses the pace battles every single time, against every single fullback. This wasn't just one instance against Crystal Palace, he's never quick enough.

You can't say the opposite either. Lucas hasn't been given a consistent run of games yet, and Lo Celso has only played in RW for 5 minutes in the Europa League.
My view is that Mourinho is giving Bergwijn a run of games to show something. With the Man City, Chelsea and Arsenal games producing a total of 7 points, things were going well enough to justify not making any changes, even though Bergwijn contributed nothing in the final third. Now that we've dropped points to Crystal Palace from a winning position, and Bergwijn had an atrocious game, there's far stronger incentive to make a change. It's not the first time we've struggled to create scoring opportunities against a lesser team this year, and it's going to continue to happen while there is a weak link in the final third.

Dont get me wrong I think we should have more about us especially vs the likes of Palace and I want to see Bergwijn or Moura contributing more in that role, whoever takes it needs to improve their forward play because as Jose pointed out, those tasked with getting us to transition fast in the 2nd half failed and Bergwijn was apart of that.

I just feel you're being overall harsh towards him, you couldn't wait at HT to jump into his thread and have a go. As I say you are right he can improve going forward but I wouldn't be so quick to assume that anybody could come in and do his role. Moura has been on the pitch for a couple of capitulations this season so maybe isn't trusted in the role. Personally wouln't mind seeing Moura given another chance especially vs Liverpool highline.

 

[ralphs bald spot]

Oscar got 6 goals and 8 assists, which is 14 direct score involvements altogether. I think that's enough to effectively throw this paragraph out the window.

But as you said regarding Ndombele and Lo Celso, it's not all about goals and assists either. I'm a big fan of what Ndombele has brought to the team this year, and even without getting an assist stat, he's had significant involvements in multiple goals we've scored this season.

As for Bergwijn, there's nothing. No goals, no assists, not involved in the buildup for any goals, can't dribble past anyone, can't outpace any defender. No good for a winger, even for one asked to do a defensive job.


The thing is, I accept Kane and Son aren't always going to produce, which makes it all the more important to have another outlet in the final third, be it creative or goalscoring. Bergwijn is neither.

Once?
He loses the pace battles every single time, against every single fullback. This wasn't just one instance against Crystal Palace, he's never quick enough.

You can't say the opposite either. Lucas hasn't been given a consistent run of games yet, and Lo Celso has only played in RW for 5 minutes in the Europa League.
My view is that Mourinho is giving Bergwijn a run of games to show something. With the Man City, Chelsea and Arsenal games producing a total of 7 points, things were going well enough to justify not making any changes, even though Bergwijn contributed nothing in the final third. Now that we've dropped points to Crystal Palace from a winning position, and Bergwijn had an atrocious game, there's far stronger incentive to make a change. It's not the first time we've struggled to create scoring opportunities against a lesser team this year, and it's going to continue to happen while there is a weak link in the final third.

But Bergwin wasn't the reason we struggled to create - Palace stopped Spurs playing in the second half, we couldn't get out and you can't blame that on a wide player. I think he is being asked like everyone in the side to do a specific job - the side is set up for Kane and Son and rightly so because they are exceptional players. The others aren't really asked to create they are almost there to set a platform.

I am not sure what you mean in the last point 'to prove something' he is picking a side to win games and in the previous 3 the side was set up really well. Personally I think Bergwin is ok, not an exciting winger but does a decent job, I would like to see Ali o the left but the side is top of the league and you can't argue with that and Mourinho wants a workhorse out wide despite losing some creativity its not the job for the player in the wide spot

 

[Duck]

And Willian, who is doing Bergwijns role got a total of 2 goals and 3 assists so 8 goals between them and 11 assists so as I said, they didn't break 15 goals or even 15 assists.

You're falling back to Willian? My point is Chelsea relied on more than just Hazard and Costa for goals and assists. Oscar got 6 goals and 8 assists in 28 appearances, which is exactly what you expect from an attacking midfielder in a title challenging team. You cannot challenge for Premier Leagues relying on only two players producing those stats consistently.

As for Willian, I don't have his 14/15 performances fresh in my mind, but over the course of his career in the Premier League, he's proven he contributes much more offensively than just his goals, assists and defensive work-rate. He is(was) also a far better player than Bergwijn in every facet of the game. Faster, more intelligent, better technically, more consistent, etc.

I just feel you're being overall harsh towards him, you couldn't wait at HT to jump into his thread and have a go.

You could say the exact same thing about all the people criticizing Mourinho's defensive mindset, even though 95% of those exact posters were probably praising him for exactly that for the past month.
Personally, I see Bergwijn's role in the team as the glaring issue, which is why I posted about it accordingly.

As I say you are right he can improve going forward but I wouldn't be so quick to assume that anybody could come in and do his role. Moura has been on the pitch for a couple of capitulations this season so maybe isn't trusted in the role. Personally wouln't mind seeing Moura given another chance especially vs Liverpool highline.

I dispute his role is necessary to begin with. Sissoko already helps defend the right side a lot, having Bergwijn there doesn't make that big of a difference, especially against teams like Crystal Palace.
At the end of the day, if we want to get serious about competing for the title, we can't accommodate someone like Bergwijn (whose sole role appears to be a defensive workhorse on the wing), and cannot exclusively depend on Kane and Son to do all the scoring and assisting.
Our main competition is Liverpool, who finished with 99 points last season; they have Salah, Mane, Firmino and Jota making up their front 4. Bergwijn isn't even 1/5th as good as any of those guys, particularly in the final third.

 

[Who’s our next manager?]

Of course it’s about goals and assists,that’s why we play the game"

 

[Duck]

But Bergwin wasn't the reason we struggled to create - Palace stopped Spurs playing in the second half, we couldn't get out and you can't blame that on a wide player. I think he is being asked like everyone in the side to do a specific job - the side is set up for Kane and Son and rightly so because they are exceptional players. The others aren't really asked to create they are almost there to set a platform.

And I re-iterate: if we want to get real about competing for the title, it can't just be those two. If we exclusively rely on two players to generate goals and assists, we're going to become increasingly easy to shut down.
Every single Premier League winning team has a bare minimum of 4 players producing a consistent output of goals and assists. This season it's particularly important, because our main competition for the title is Liverpool, coming off a massive 99 point season, and a front 4 consisting of Salah, Mane, Jota and Firmino. Salah alone may well be in the top 5 greatest Premier League players of all time, Mane is probably in the top 30.

Meanwhile we've got Bergwijn in our starting 11, who isn't even 10% as good as those guys. He's not even fit to tie their shoelaces. I don't care to hear crap like it being an unfair comparison either; Liverpool's our competition for trophies, we should be striving to be better than them in every way, and that's never happening with Bergwijn in the team.

I am not sure what you mean in the last point 'to prove something'

Very simple: it's giving a player a run of games to prove he deserves a place in the team. If he doesn't perform well enough, someone else gets a shot.
Davinson Sanchez was given a run of 4 Premier League games earlier this season. He wasn't particularly good, and had a disaster of a game against West Ham, and has since been banished from the squad.

he is picking a side to win games and in the previous 3 the side was set up really well. Personally I think Bergwin is ok, not an exciting winger but does a decent job, I would like to see Ali o the left but the side is top of the league and you can't argue with that and Mourinho wants a workhorse out wide despite losing some creativity its not the job for the player in the wide spot

To that, I point to what I said up above.
Why should "ok, does a decent job" be good enough? Again, do we want to GET REAL about winning trophies?
Liverpool finished with 99 points last year with the best attacking trio in the Premier League by far, and they still bought Jota, a fantastic player. If we want to compete with them, it can't be with plodders like Bergwijn; he's too slow, not a very good shooter, and hasn't posed any threat in the final third this season.

Lucas might not have had the best 18 months, but at the very least he's proven he can be an unbelievable player at times. He's also got pace and flair, and is theoretically a much more dangerous target for Kane to pass to than a guy who loses every footrace. I'd much rather him in the team than Bergwijn.

 

[DiVaio]

Every single Premier League winning team has a bare minimum of 4 players producing a consistent output of goals and assists. This season it's particularly important, because our main competition for the title is Liverpool, coming off a massive 99 point season, and a front 4 consisting of Salah, Mane, Jota and Firmino. Salah alone may well be in the top 5 greatest Premier League players of all time, Mane is probably in the top 30.

Meanwhile we've got Bergwijn in our starting 11, who isn't even 10% as good as those guys. He's not even fit to tie their shoelaces. I don't care to hear crap like it being an unfair comparison either; Liverpool's our competition for trophies, we should be striving to be better than them in every way, and that's never happening with Bergwijn in the team.

Only City in last couple of years had more than 2 players with +10 goals in league season.
Apart from Vardy and Mahrez the rest of their team in 15/16 scored only 26 goals.

Lucas might not have had the best 18 months, but at the very least he's proven he can be an unbelievable player at times. He's also got pace and flair, and is theoretically a much more dangerous target for Kane to pass to than a guy who loses every footrace. I'd much rather him in the team than Bergwijn.

As you said it, he showed that he can be unbelievable but that was 18 months ago and he's very inconsistent. In last 2 season for us, Bergwijn has better G+A per 90 than Lucas.

 

[Deleted member 29446]

Only City in last couple of years had more than 2 players with +10 goals in league season.
Apart from Vardy and Mahrez the rest of their team in 15/16 scored only 26 goals.


As you said it, he showed that he can be unbelievable but that was 18 months ago and he's very inconsistent. In last 2 season for us, Bergwijn has better G+A per 90 than Lucas.

Leicester also only scored 68 goals that season.

 

[Duck]

Only City in last couple of years had more than 2 players with +10 goals in league season.

I said goals and assists.

As you said it, he showed that he can be unbelievable but that was 18 months ago and he's very inconsistent. In last 2 season for us, Bergwijn has better G+A per 90 than Lucas.

Except this season, Lucas has produced more in fewer starts, even if it's only one goal.
He is also producing in the Europa League (remember Kane had to earn his Premier League spot through Europa form in Pochettino's first year).

Is Lucas the perfect option? No, but I'd much rather see him playing than hambergwijn. He's also more deserving of a run of games at this point in time.

 

[DiVaio]

I said goals and assists.


Except this season, Lucas has produced more in fewer starts, even if it's only one goal.
He is also producing in the Europa League (remember Kane had to earn his Premier League spot through Europa form in Pochettino's first year).

Is Lucas the perfect option? No, but I'd much rather see him playing than hambergwijn. He's also more deserving of a run of games at this point in time.

Lucas did nothing in the league, even against Newcastle when scored that goal.
And how he deserves more minutes than Bergwijn who show more in last couple of matches in league or europa?

 

[Duck]

Lucas did nothing in the league, even against Newcastle when scored that goal.

You mean except scoring that goal? At least that's something. Bergwijn still has donuts to his name.

And how he deserves more minutes than Bergwijn who show more in last couple of matches in league or europa?

What has Bergwijn shown in the Europa League? Same 0 goals, 0 assists. Lucas has 3 goals and one assist in the Europa League.

Bergwijn hasn't showed anything another fullback couldn't have done.

 

[DiVaio]

You mean except scoring that goal? At least that's something. Bergwijn still has donuts to his name.

That's his first league goal since 15th December.

What has Bergwijn shown in the Europa League? Same 0 goals, 0 assists. Lucas has 3 goals and one assist in the Europa League.

Bergwijn hasn't showed anything another fullback couldn't have done.

I can admit that Lucas was good against LASK at home, but still, he wasn't even the best brazilian on the pitch. Then he wasn't good against Antwerp. In these group matches Lucas did nothing spectacular, showed that he is inconsistent, there wasn't match that he was the best player on the pitch.
Bergwijn showed decent things in europa and our football was better when he played.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

Is it though? Jose has clearly set up so we have 2 forwards who are our primary goal getters and he's asking the 3rd winger to work extremely hard for the team. I thought Moura the back end of last season had his most consistent period for the club and was very strong even though he didn't score many. Bergwijn as I've said above could have done better with some chances in recent games but in terms of his impact over the course of 90 minutes I much prefer the effort he's putting in the last 4 games compared to when he first joined and he scored the odd goal and was invisible for 90 minutes.

Obviously I'd love our 3rd winger to contribute more and also put the defensive shift but I think some of you expect way too much. Jose has typically always gone for a team where the 3rd winger is more about defensive work.

Frankly I think some of you focus too much on goals and assist (not directed at who I quoted) I see people lamenting Lo Celso and Ndombele for lack of goal and assist contributions, but don't take into account their actual role within Jose system. A system which has us firing on all cylinders atm and is working.

This is spot on.

 

[TEESSIDE1]

As it stands we’ve 2 goal scorers in Kane and Son, take one or both of them out of the team and where are the goals going to come from? I get the argument for the 3rd forward being more defensive but when utilised offensively they’re still not contributing assists or goals. For me Bale, Moura and Bergwijn aren’t doing anywhere near enough and we can’t rely on them if we’re missing Kane and/or Son.

ps I know we have Vinicius to come in for Kane but it’s the supporting players who aren’t doing enough.

I know signing Bale has been great for the team spirit but he’s a complete shadow of his former self. Whereas Moura works his arse off defensively and I commend him for this but he’s a ‘forward’ and offensively he leaves much to be desired. Bergwijn just doesn’t have that extra bit of quality that we need.

For me and given the loan deal for Bale it has to be 1 or 2 of Bale and/or Moura/Lamela out and an actual goal threat in eg Dybala