HildoSpur
Likes Erik Lamela, deal with it.
- Oct 1, 2005
- 9,179
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Yeah that's right I must be a supporter of Bolsonaro too. That's the next stage of this way of thinking.
Player Watch Player Watch - Lucas Moura
- Thread starter wirE
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wrd
Well-Known Member
- Aug 22, 2014
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You'll be shocked to hear this but I'm not an expert on the intricacies of Brazilian politics or the Brazilian class system, from the outside looking in on an ideological level it's fair to say that Bolsonaro isn't for me.
What I do know though is that life is far more complicated than the negative judgements of Moura are making out. I think mean this in general not just in this situation but those who accuse others of ignorance are themselves typically being very ignorant because they don't consider the parameters that makes people arrive at their belief system. We tend to ignore what growing up poor truly means and the cultural deprivation that comes with it. People are purposefully left uneducated, they are purposefully given a system which removes the opportunity to learn to critically judge situations, to be aware of when they're being manipulated, where they're taken advantage of. I mean fucking hell how can any of us from the UK judge Brazilians who have been indoctrinated when we're going through what we are. It seems to me from the outside looking in that Moura grew up in poverty and all he had to keep him safe was his religion. From an early childhood he would have very little other than a football at his feet and prayers to god to change his circumstance. Moura himself dragged himself out of that situation by learning to play football but the thing with religion is that when good things happen and you're told from a young age that everything good comes from god, it's hard to undo that core belief on a psychological level. So along comes this politician who falsely uses religion as his weapon of choice to manipulate people, I mean it's a near foregone conclusion what is going to happen. We can talk about the fact that Moura is wealthy now and has the means to learn and see how other people are affected but human beings are rarely than altruist because our focus is on keeping us safe, so Moura is probably ignorant to the damage that Bolsonaro causes others because Moura will focus on people who live circumstances similar to what he experienced because he has that perspective, he will have a narrow lens, a lens narrowed because of the circumstances he had in life and a lens which is unlikely to be widened because he most likely was never taught to question things. As much as we all like to think that money fixes everything when it comes to growing up poor it doesn't, because the class system working the way it does goes way beyond what money is capable of, it is a perpetuating cycle of keeping people misinformed, easily manipulated and limiting upward mobility, it's not going to suddenly undo what happens to the brain growing up in those circumstances, how can you ask a question you don't know how to ask.
The idea aswell that if we were in Moura's shoes we would act differently is extremely doubtful, we always look at circumstances as if we would get to take our life experiences into other people's circumstances. We are products of the circumstances that happen to us, it's called determinism and we will exhibit the behaviour we are taught to exhibit up until something happens which allows for choice. Ideally in this situation I wish there was somebody around Moura brave enough to alter his life experiences by offering him alternate perspectives but that's the problem with money, nobody is going to challenge the view of the hand that feeds.
What I do know though is that life is far more complicated than the negative judgements of Moura are making out. I think mean this in general not just in this situation but those who accuse others of ignorance are themselves typically being very ignorant because they don't consider the parameters that makes people arrive at their belief system. We tend to ignore what growing up poor truly means and the cultural deprivation that comes with it. People are purposefully left uneducated, they are purposefully given a system which removes the opportunity to learn to critically judge situations, to be aware of when they're being manipulated, where they're taken advantage of. I mean fucking hell how can any of us from the UK judge Brazilians who have been indoctrinated when we're going through what we are. It seems to me from the outside looking in that Moura grew up in poverty and all he had to keep him safe was his religion. From an early childhood he would have very little other than a football at his feet and prayers to god to change his circumstance. Moura himself dragged himself out of that situation by learning to play football but the thing with religion is that when good things happen and you're told from a young age that everything good comes from god, it's hard to undo that core belief on a psychological level. So along comes this politician who falsely uses religion as his weapon of choice to manipulate people, I mean it's a near foregone conclusion what is going to happen. We can talk about the fact that Moura is wealthy now and has the means to learn and see how other people are affected but human beings are rarely than altruist because our focus is on keeping us safe, so Moura is probably ignorant to the damage that Bolsonaro causes others because Moura will focus on people who live circumstances similar to what he experienced because he has that perspective, he will have a narrow lens, a lens narrowed because of the circumstances he had in life and a lens which is unlikely to be widened because he most likely was never taught to question things. As much as we all like to think that money fixes everything when it comes to growing up poor it doesn't, because the class system working the way it does goes way beyond what money is capable of, it is a perpetuating cycle of keeping people misinformed, easily manipulated and limiting upward mobility, it's not going to suddenly undo what happens to the brain growing up in those circumstances, how can you ask a question you don't know how to ask.
The idea aswell that if we were in Moura's shoes we would act differently is extremely doubtful, we always look at circumstances as if we would get to take our life experiences into other people's circumstances. We are products of the circumstances that happen to us, it's called determinism and we will exhibit the behaviour we are taught to exhibit up until something happens which allows for choice. Ideally in this situation I wish there was somebody around Moura brave enough to alter his life experiences by offering him alternate perspectives but that's the problem with money, nobody is going to challenge the view of the hand that feeds.
dontcallme
SC Supporter
- Mar 18, 2005
- 34,454
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Then what are you doing in the thread??
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Aleks
Well-Known Member
- Aug 18, 2012
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Lucas Moura did not grow up poor, he was a childhood prodigy and was in professional academies by the age of 5. His mother was a professional hairdresser and his father was a civil servant. https://lifebogger.com/lucas-moura-childhood-story-plus-untold-biography-facts/
Richarlison grew up poor
Richarlison grew up poor
wrd
Well-Known Member
- Aug 22, 2014
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INTERVIEW | Lucas Moura on how football saved him from criminal life
EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW
www.standard.co.uk
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Aleks
Well-Known Member
- Aug 18, 2012
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It literally says in the article that his parents moved to a more prosperous side of the city because he was a child prodigyINTERVIEW | Lucas Moura on how football saved him from criminal life
EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW
edit:
I misread the story.
However I still believe that Moura didn't have a childhood as destitute as others due to his participation in these academies and being considered one of the countries brightest talents at a very young age.
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wrd
Well-Known Member
- Aug 22, 2014
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I added this point to my original post but you already replied so here it is:
Though it's interesting you mention Richarlison, I don't think it's right to say well Richarlison had less than Moura therefore, I don't think cultural deprivation works like that. For example in the UK our working class is vastly better off than a significant amount of countries in terms of finances, roofs over our heads etc but there is a significant gaps on a cultural level which impact us significantly even between the working and middle class despite financially the lines being more blurred than ever. So I don't know Richarlison's backstory, I don't really know Moura's other than remembering him speaking about growing up in Sao Paulo. All I'm trying to do with the point I made is to simply, highlight some issues which hopefully allows us to judge people less harshly and acknowledge that even if we're disappointed on a ideological level that there is always an explanation for how people arrive to the behaviour they exhibit, none of us are born evil imo I don't think.
What I do hope is that if Richarlison is on the opposing side then he could potentially be the very circumstance which Moura needs to gain a different perspective and I hope that happens.
I also think you're conflating two aspects incorrectly, in the article I linked it it never said they moved to a more prosperous side of the city specifically because of his exploits as a child, it sounds more to me like they moved there once his professional career took off judging by the writing. In any even I tried to articulate in my opening post why money doesn't change very ingrained cultural implications from generations of your family growing up in the lower classes and so I think I've already made points which encapsulates my views on that.
wrd
Well-Known Member
- Aug 22, 2014
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That's great and as I said I hope he is the voice that offers Moura a different perspective but I'm not going to put Richarlison on a pedestal as a great guy and have animosity towards Moura because Moura has been taken in by a person who from the outside looking in is taking advantage of not only people's faith but judging by @rossdapep's post looks like he is riding the wave of a feeling that the people were abandoned by the previous regime. I vastly prefer the approach of trying to understand how somebody has ended up down a certain path instead of hating them for being on it.
Spartanspurs
Well-Known Member
- Jul 2, 2013
- 427
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I doubt LGBTQ people see it that way.
Not a great excuse for a footballer making millions a year though is it?
Neon_Knight_
Well-Known Member
- Jul 20, 2011
- 4,041
- 6,786
Even if Brazilians refering to nazism are thinking about "concentration camps and Hitler", they could also be thinking about the estimated 20+ million excess deaths during Stalin's communist reign.
wrd
Well-Known Member
- Aug 22, 2014
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What are you on about, it's the Moura thread and he is actually being discussed, if anything this is one the few moments a player thread is being used to discuss the player in question.
Neon_Knight_
Well-Known Member
- Jul 20, 2011
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I don't know the context of why Moura posted what he did when he did (what am I missing?). However, his tweet did not state that communism and nazism are the same thing - only that both are indefensible regimes that are responsible for killing millions of people, which is simply a statement of fact...isn't it?
The Google translation of his tweet is:
"Communism is the most advanced stage of socialism. And for me communism and Nazism are two aberrations. Both have killed millions of people and are indefensible regimes! But if you want to counter that, prove it to me here with a successful example of communism."
An 'abberation' is a departure from normality. If anyone thinks that it's inaccurate to describe either of communism / Nazism as an 'aberration', I would be interested to know how they came to that conclusion. Communism has literally killed tens of millions of people and oppressed billions more. ?
rossdapep
Well-Known Member
- Aug 25, 2011
- 22,363
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....this is the problem.
In my time in Brazil I've been invited to many BBQs or restaurants to meet people.
I've found that more conservative types are much more courteous and will really go out of their way to help you. Some of these are Bolsonaro supppeters, some are pretty much tired of him but still wont vote Lula.
Whereas the ones that lean to the left always get vocal after a few beers and show an unpleasant side. Just the other week I was at a BBQ and some girls started chanting shit about Bolsonaro. It spoilt the mood and showed their character.
Yet if I was to take them at face value and judge them based on their political position then the Bolsonaro voters would be shitty people?
I'm sorry but that's such a flawed way to judge people.
People can have strange positions but still be good people.
I have a friend who refuses to go to BBQs if the people are rich cause he thinks they'll be Bolsonaro supporters. So he's basically decided to make a broad judgement, that to me doesn't make you a good person.
Rout-Ledge
Well-Known Member
- Jul 29, 2005
- 9,682
- 21,876
I don't know the context of why Moura posted what he did when he did (what am I missing?). However, his tweet did not state that communism and nazism are the same thing - only that both are indefensible regimes that are responsible for killing millions of people, which is simply a statement of fact...isn't it?
The Google translation of his tweet is:
"Communism is the most advanced stage of socialism. And for me communism and Nazism are two aberrations. Both have killed millions of people and are indefensible regimes! But if you want to counter that, prove it to me here with a successful example of communism."
An 'abberation' is a departure from normality. If anyone thinks that it's inaccurate to describe either of communism / Nazism as an 'aberration', I would be interested to know how they came to that conclusion. Communism has literally killed tens of millions of people and oppressed billions more. ?
Agreed - more or less. Although the comparison is rather crass (he’s a footballer, being crass isn’t a hanging offence). I think his support of Bolsonaro is more troubling. But as has been discussed - a nuanced discussion is required on that. If he’d come out with something homophobic I’d have a different view.
rossdapep
Well-Known Member
- Aug 25, 2011
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Neither a hairdresser or civil servant equates to a lot of money in Brazil. It's not the UK
Nazism is a criminal ideology, communism is a criminal ideology, not sure what's wrong with what Lucas said. The only difference is that Nazism was rightly binned and communism hasn't, with tens of millions of people being killed in prison and concentration camps in Eastern Europe and the USSR after WW2.
People in the West think they have the best interpretation of the definition of both but the Communism one is very off. It destroyed the lives of hundreds of millions of people and I see it glorified today as the solution to the mistakes of Capitalism, disgusting.
People in the West think they have the best interpretation of the definition of both but the Communism one is very off. It destroyed the lives of hundreds of millions of people and I see it glorified today as the solution to the mistakes of Capitalism, disgusting.
