Player Watch: Kevin Wimmer

[DaSpurs]

How about Vlaar?

Not a bad idea, as his age would actually be a plus as he wouldn't stand in Dier's way for long.

I just think we're desperate for a genuine leader somewhere, and I think a barking **** like Shawcross issuing orders from the high line and communicating runners to the midfielders ahead of him would make a big difference. I think part of our problem defensively is there's just not enough vocal communication, and so runners get away too easily. I also think the younger players are still too quick to drop their heads when we lose some momentum, especially at home. Shawcross would have absolutely none of that. He wouldn't be the best defender we could get, but I think for the improvements he would offer for mentality and communication that he'd be well worth it.

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

Not a bad idea, as his age would actually be a plus as he wouldn't stand in Dier's way for long.

I just think we're desperate for a genuine leader somewhere, and I think a barking **** like Shawcross issuing orders from the high line and communicating runners to the midfielders ahead of him would make a big difference. I think part of our problem defensively is there's just not enough vocal communication, and so runners get away too easily. I also think the younger players are still too quick to drop their heads when we lose some momentum, especially at home. Shawcross would have absolutely none of that. He wouldn't be the best defender we could get, but I think for the improvements he would offer for mentality and communication that he'd be well worth it.

Oh don't get me wrong, mate. I wasn't dismissing Shawcross, I think he's precisely what we're lacking, and not just in defending ability. As you rightly say, he's a lad who will get stuck into ANYONE who hasn't done their job properly. I like that!! I mentioned Vlaar because of the obvious difference in outlay

 

[DaSpurs]

Oh don't get me wrong, mate. I wasn't dismissing Shawcross, I think he's precisely what we're lacking, and not just in defending ability. As you rightly say, he's a lad who will get stuck into ANYONE who hasn't done their job properly. I like that!! I mentioned Vlaar because of the obvious difference in outlay

Yeah I gotcha. Haha although I guess what I'm trying to say myself is that I'd make Shawcross a top priority were I in charge. In fact, I know I run up, down, n all over this place preaching about our need for wingers, but Shawcross would be the very first thing I'd set to this window. I know he he'd cost a pretty penny (three years left on his contract, English, regular Prem starter, close to the national team, etc), but I'd pay it and look for a couple bargains elsewhere such as Kono and Ayew for free/Beauvue for piss cheap.

 

[Sweech]

Now, do you mean an actual eye for a long pass, or the not much missed (by me) sixty yard 'Dawson Diagonal' ?

6 of one half a dozen of the other.

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

Yeah I gotcha. Haha although I guess what I'm trying to say myself is that I'd make Shawcross a top priority were I in charge. In fact, I know I run up, down, n all over this place preaching about our need for wingers, but Shawcross would be the very first thing I'd set to this window. I know he he'd cost a pretty penny (three years left on his contract, English, regular Prem starter, close to the national team, etc), but I'd pay it and look for a couple bargains elsewhere such as Kono and Ayew for free/Beauvue for piss cheap.

Just out of interest, how much do you reckon it'd take to prize him away from Stoke? The lad is 27 years of age, so basically entering his prime (as a defender) he's their skipper, and Hughes clearly loves the lad. Probably need to shell anywhere from £15mil to £25mil? Taking into account the premium that English players seem to have placed upon their heads.

6 of one half a dozen of the other.

If the lad can do it 'successfully' , and in moderation, rather than all the bloody time, like Dawson used to, he sounds like an interesting player. Thank you for the answer / info

 

[DaSpurs]

Just out of interest, how much do you reckon it'd take to prize him away from Stoke? The lad is 27 years of age, so basically entering his prime (as a defender) he's their skipper, and Hughes clearly loves the lad. Probably need to shell anywhere from £15mil to £25mil? Taking into account the premium that English players seem to have placed upon their heads.

I'd say you're spot on, in fact I think it closer to that £25m. I'd say £20-22m if I had to guess.

 

[Sweech]

If the lad can do it 'successfully' , and in moderation, rather than all the bloody time, like Dawson used to, he sounds like an interesting player. Thank you for the answer / info

I wouldn't say he's dead accurate, but he looked good doing so and wasn't shy of it either.

That being said I think it was Koln's strategy to counter attack this way totally bypassing the midfield with long balls from defenders, but Wimmer was definitely a main guy triggering the counter.

 

[ItsBoris]

Not a bad idea, as his age would actually be a plus as he wouldn't stand in Dier's way for long.

I just think we're desperate for a genuine leader somewhere, and I think a barking **** like Shawcross issuing orders from the high line and communicating runners to the midfielders ahead of him would make a big difference. I think part of our problem defensively is there's just not enough vocal communication, and so runners get away too easily. I also think the younger players are still too quick to drop their heads when we lose some momentum, especially at home. Shawcross would have absolutely none of that. He wouldn't be the best defender we could get, but I think for the improvements he would offer for mentality and communication that he'd be well worth it.

Shawcross would be a good signing if we didn't play a high line imo. But given that we do, he would be a liability in our defense imo. I think we need quicker, smarter defenders in our back line and a player with good distribution to sit in front of the back 4. In fact I think we could even get away with playing Dier and Vertonghen together, but if we play a high line the biggest issue for us imo is having a player who can read and dictate the game sitting in front of the back 4. Basically a Carrick/Busquets type player, but I have no idea if there is anyone with those qualities who is gettable for us.

I actually was hoping Capoue would be that player but he's frozen out of the team at the moment it seems like.

 

[DaSpurs]

Shawcross would be a good signing if we didn't play a high line imo. But given that we do, he would be a liability in our defense imo. I think we need quicker, smarter defenders in our back line and a player with good distribution to sit in front of the back 4. In fact I think we could even get away with playing Dier and Vertonghen together, but if we play a high line the biggest issue for us imo is having a player who can read and dictate the game sitting in front of the back 4. Basically a Carrick/Busquets type player, but I have no idea if there is anyone with those qualities who is gettable for us.

I actually was hoping Capoue would be that player but he's frozen out of the team at the moment it seems like.

Agreed, I too had high hopes for Capoue in this system. I thought he'd be a smash hit in the double pivot.

I also agree with the rest, that the optimal defender would be a quicker, more athletic type. I think you're spot on there. However, I think a lot of that is countered by the vocal presence and communicative nature of Shawcross. I think it's very important in the high line to have someone who can see the entire pitch, but is also loud enough to communicate to the midfielders where they need to be and where the runners are coming from. As a result of that, double pivot players aren't getting desperately pulled out of position trying to cover, and are more oriented to counter those passes in behind which would expose Shawcross, or another slower defender. I think his experience would also be beneficial alongside Walker, as he could be barking exactly where Walker needs to be when the play is behind, as Walker tends to struggle with at times. With Dier or Fazio there, no one is communicating with Walker. I think Daws was helpful alongside Walker for this reason, as he would communicate with him and tell him where the approaches were from.

So I certainly can't disagree with you as I think your reasoning spot on, but I do think Shawcrosses advantages not only help to counter those disadvantages you point out, but IMO would even outweigh them.

 

[ItsBoris]

Completely agree we should improve our squad options, particularly considering we may well get rid of Chiriches, Kaboul and Fazio.

But if we have Dier, Vertonghen and Wimmer, we'll need someone a bit more experienced to go in alongside them.

Not sure who that is though.

Trying to put 2 and 2 together, I think Da Spurs is right that he'd be backup for Vertonghen because Wimmer is also a left sided CB if I'm not mistaken. So what it looks like is that we're thinking Dier/Fazio for the RCB position, and Vertonghen/Wimmer for the LCB position.

I'd be happy with that tbh. Our defense isn't bad because of our CBs imo, I think it's the lack of shielding from midfield that leaves us exposed.

 

[DiscoD1882]

whilst I welcome anything new in the defence department I have a funny feeling Fazio will stay and we will see a much better player next year. I think he was a rabbit caught in the headlights this season.

 

[Blackcanary]

whilst I welcome anything new in the defence department I have a funny feeling Fazio will stay and we will see a much better player next year. I think he was a rabbit caught in the headlights this season.

I hope so. I think he has a lot of good qualities but he had a bit of a horror start which must have affected, not just his confidence, but those around him. I remember a quote from Verts saying "I love playing with him" which seemed unusually effusive, and I think they do currently represent our best CB duo.

 

[ItsBoris]

Agreed, I too had high hopes for Capoue in this system. I thought he'd be a smash hit in the double pivot.

I also agree with the rest, that the optimal defender would be a quicker, more athletic type. I think you're spot on there. However, I think a lot of that is countered by the vocal presence and communicative nature of Shawcross. I think it's very important in the high line to have someone who can see the entire pitch, but is also loud enough to communicate to the midfielders where they need to be and where the runners are coming from. As a result of that, double pivot players aren't getting desperately pulled out of position trying to cover, and are more oriented to counter those passes in behind which would expose Shawcross, or another slower defender. I think his experience would also be beneficial alongside Walker, as he could be barking exactly where Walker needs to be when the play is behind, as Walker tends to struggle with at times. With Dier or Fazio there, no one is communicating with Walker. I think Daws was helpful alongside Walker for this reason, as he would communicate with him and tell him where the approaches were from.

So I certainly can't disagree with you as I think your reasoning spot on, but I do think Shawcrosses advantages not only help to counter those disadvantages you point out, but IMO would even outweigh them.

But does Shawcross have experience playing the type of expansive football we would be playing? It's one thing to organize a defense Stoke-style to basically soak up pressure and hoof it to Crouch, and another to press a team into their own half and have players who can read the game well enough to not get exposed by quick players on the counterattack. I just think it's an entirely different game and I'm not that confident that a player could easily transition between the two. For example, I always thought that Dawson would be great in a Stoke type team, because there's so little space behind the back 4 that it would be much harder for him to be exposed that way, which would allow his strengths to stand out. Even Terry looked ridiculous in AVB's high line at Chelsea, but when they play a low block he's world class. I just feel like Shawcross fits that mold but not sure he could be as good in our system.

 

[DaSpurs]

But does Shawcross have experience playing the type of expansive football we would be playing? It's one thing to organize a defense Stoke-style to basically soak up pressure and hoof it to Crouch, and another to press a team into their own half and have players who can read the game well enough to not get exposed by quick players on the counterattack. I just think it's an entirely different game and I'm not that confident that a player could easily transition between the two. For example, I always thought that Dawson would be great in a Stoke type team, because there's so little space behind the back 4 that it would be much harder for him to be exposed that way, which would allow his strengths to stand out. Even Terry looked ridiculous in AVB's high line at Chelsea, but when they play a low block he's world class. I just feel like Shawcross fits that mold but not sure he could be as good in our system.

Is a good point, and a valid concern. Honestly I can't even counter that, as I have no evidence/indication to point to in contrast.

The only thing I can say is that I think Shawcross is more athletic than Dawson or an older Terry, and so wouldn't quite be as physically out of depth. As far as mentally though, no I have nothing I can say to suggest he would fare better/decently in a high line setup. I do however, think it possible that in a full press which he is dictating, namely more defending ahead of him, that he could fare even better since he might not come under as much direct pressure as he would in a traditional setup. But again, I have no tangible indication of things panning out well there at all.

 

[Hoddle&Waddle]

whilst I welcome anything new in the defence department I have a funny feeling Fazio will stay and we will see a much better player next year. I think he was a rabbit caught in the headlights this season.

He's actually the best out and out defender we have at CB.

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

Shawcross would be a good signing if we didn't play a high line imo. But given that we do, he would be a liability in our defense imo. I think we need quicker, smarter defenders in our back line and a player with good distribution to sit in front of the back 4. In fact I think we could even get away with playing Dier and Vertonghen together, but if we play a high line the biggest issue for us imo is having a player who can read and dictate the game sitting in front of the back 4. Basically a Carrick/Busquets type player, but I have no idea if there is anyone with those qualities who is gettable for us.

I actually was hoping Capoue would be that player but he's frozen out of the team at the moment it seems like.

Screw it, I'll go mental, well more than usual....... Pirlo

 

[VegasII]

Bloody hell I hate this whole high line bollocks. File it under zonal marking as shite.

 

[CoopsieDeadpool]

I think his experience would also be beneficial alongside Walker, as he could be barking exactly where Walker needs to be when the play is behind, as Walker tends to struggle with at times. With Dier or Fazio there, no one is communicating with Walker. I think Daws was helpful alongside Walker for this reason, as he would communicate with him and tell him where the approaches were from.

I'll repeat my controversial & unwavering stance, Walker can't be helped, no matter who shouts at him, or how much they do it. The guy is a liability, and any mistake he makes, always ends up with him pulling his angry face & pointing the finger of blame at someone else. He's literally never in position, his forays up the line literally lead to nothing, and are nothing but a waste of time that piles the pressure on the rest of the players that are behind him. I genuinely can't remember the last time he didn't give away a stupid & needless free-kick around the edge of our box, piling more pressure on the guys he expects to bail him out of the shit, and often resulting in a goal for the opposition.

I've read numerous reports now, about how Pochettino has lost patience with Walker, and I can honestly say I've never wanted a story to be true so much. He's a RB that can't defend, he's a RB that can't even cross his fucking fingers, and he has the footballing intelligence of an amoeba.

Sorry to those who like/rate him, it's nothing personal, but I'd replace him with Micah Richards, yesterday!

 

[Japhet]

Trying to put 2 and 2 together, I think Da Spurs is right that he'd be backup for Vertonghen because Wimmer is also a left sided CB if I'm not mistaken. So what it looks like is that we're thinking Dier/Fazio for the RCB position, and Vertonghen/Wimmer for the LCB position.

I'd be happy with that tbh. Our defense isn't bad because of our CBs imo, I think it's the lack of shielding from midfield that leaves us exposed.

It's also because our fullbacks push forward but none of the players ahead of them has any defensive sense (like Lennon has) and our Centre Mids (Mason and Bentaleb) are trying to cover half of the pitch each. Nobody seems able to cover anybody else defensively. If our CBs ever bring the ball out you won't see Mason or Bentaleb fill the gap like Stambouli or Capoue would.

 

[spursfan77]

Bloody hell I hate this whole high line bollocks. File it under zonal marking as shite.

And inverted wingers!