Player Watch - Djed Spence - Genoa

[Colonel_Klinck]

Is it a shit attitude that Ange isn't impressed with or just not good enough?

 

[EQP]

Such a shame Spence can't see the opportunity he has under Ange. We have Udogie and Sarr, two players that are younger than him, already playing pivotal parts in the team. You'd think that would flip a switch in his head and have him saying " If I knuckle down, focus and put in the work - I'll get my opportunity to impress " . Anyway, it's his career. Just hope we can get something close to what was paid for him.

 

[jolsnogross]

I'm assuming the answer there is their attitude in training.

It was widely reported that Royale spent a ton of his own money on specialists, equipment, etc to try and improve.
By all accounts, Spence is a stark contrast and trains poorly and hasn't been able to convince multiple managers.

Yeah, must be. But that reflects atrocious scouting. Even Ndombele, who is reported to have similarly terrible attitude, has played some first team games for us and you can examine whether his performance on the field informs whether you should persist with attempts for an attitude adjustment. But Spence has basically come to Spurs and been anonymous and is ruining his career if he doesn't hustle to find another club. He looked quite decent for Forest.

 

[Frank Blank]

Yeah, must be. But that reflects atrocious scouting. Even Ndombele, who is reported to have similarly terrible attitude, has played some first team games for us and you can examine whether his performance on the field informs whether you should persist with attempts for an attitude adjustment. But Spence has basically come to Spurs and been anonymous and is ruining his career if he doesn't hustle to find another club. He looked quite decent for Forest.

Jack Clarke springs to mind, too.

 

[Bablu37]

We were linked with Spence during Mourinho's days - and under a very different scouting team.
We then purchased him some 3 coaches later and a completely new scouting team.
There is only 1 common denominator over the years, and that denominator wasn't the player consistently pulling up trees

 

[Albertbarich]

A prime example of how we get things wrong with little plan.

Yes we should be buying young British players, yes they should get a chance but when you employ a Mourinho and Conte you know what you're getting. It's not like either of them keep it secret .

So you spend a summer chasing a kid your notoriously moody manager doesn't really want in a crucial position for his system and then don't buy him what he does want and this kid already has attitude issues which you're scouting team obviously think can be overcome but he won't play which will only make those issues worse. And now a year down the line he hasn't played, still has a bad attitude and we're struggling to move him on.

When we call for backing a manager this is why. Some people will use people clamouring for a traore (as I did in the past) as a reason the chairman shouldn't just buy anyone but the point is I always want the manager backed. Even Nuno whose appointment disgusted me, because of you employ a manager you should give him every chance to succeed. I hope levy has at least learnt his lesson in that he can't work with stubborn managers.

I think Spence will have a great career. He will likely go somewhere and smash it but with two very good options at right back no way is Ange going to waste time on fixing him mentally.

 

[wrd]

A prime example of how we get things wrong with little plan.

Yes we should be buying young British players, yes they should get a chance but when you employ a Mourinho and Conte you know what you're getting. It's not like either of them keep it secret .

So you spend a summer chasing a kid your notoriously moody manager doesn't really want in a crucial position for his system and then don't buy him what he does want and this kid already has attitude issues which you're scouting team obviously think can be overcome but he won't play which will only make those issues worse. And now a year down the line he hasn't played, still has a bad attitude and we're struggling to move him on.

When we call for backing a manager this is why. Some people will use people clamouring for a traore (as I did in the past) as a reason the chairman shouldn't just buy anyone but the point is I always want the manager backed. Even Nuno whose appointment disgusted me, because of you employ a manager you should give him every chance to succeed. I hope levy has at least learnt his lesson in that he can't work with stubborn managers.

I think Spence will have a great career. He will likely go somewhere and smash it but with two very good options at right back no way is Ange going to waste time on fixing him mentally.

Really appreciate the way you analysed this. People talk about right attitudes etc but it is exactly as you say, you can take risks if you're confident that they'll be managed correctly. If you can't ensure that then it's a waste of money. The benefits are obvious in relation to not taking the risk on players like this but the rewards are there should you manage it correctly from the beginning, start on the wrong foot and it's difficult to pull out the nosedive.

 

[Trix]

Fans doing mental gymnastics to drive their anti-levy agendas.

There were plenty of articles at the time saying Paratici was scouting Spence.

I posted he didn't want him before during and after he signed. It's not mental gymnastics to blame Levy after he'd failed to make an impact under numerous managers. I said it from pretty much day one mate. Levy pushed for him and Conte accepted it because he was led to believe it would clear some HG issues and he'd then be able to get the other targets he wanted. Make you own mind up how that worked out. This isn't revisionism on my part and I've been very consistent on this.

 

[DanielJohnCosta]

I posted he didn't want him before during and after he signed. It's not mental gymnastics to blame Levy after he'd failed to make an impact under numerous managers. I said it from pretty much day one mate. Levy pushed for him and Conte accepted it because he was led to believe it would clear some HG issues and he'd then be able to get the other targets he wanted. Make you own mind up how that worked out. This isn't revisionism on my part and I've been very consistent on this.

and thank God we didn't give conte the shit he wanted

 

[wrd]

Fans doing mental gymnastics to drive their anti-levy agendas.

There were plenty of articles at the time saying Paratici was scouting Spence.

I'll be honest mate, I'd argue you're accusing people of doing what you're actually guilty of in the reverse, Trix has literally provided evidence of what he said before. So I'd consider whether your judgement of others is revealing what you yourself are doing.

 

[vegassd]

As you say, we'll never know for sure either way, I just remember reading articles from multiple outlets during the Spence's break out season that mentioned Paratici scouting him. Then as soon as it seemed Conte didn't want him the narrative seemed to be twisted to say he was a 'Levy signing'.

I think that what you're saying can be true and false at the same time. I'm sure there were articles reporting that Paratici was scouting Spence, but hopefully we can agree that Levy wouldn't be the one to go and watch him. If Levy has asked Paratici to go and have a look at Spence, then people are going to see Paratici there in the flesh. It's then a very short jump to an online article reporting that "Paratici was seen scouting Spence" etc.

From what Trix was saying last summer, it sounded like Spence was a cog in the machine regarding an HG solution to the squad... whereby we could add an HG midfielder (Maddison/JWP) or could add Spence at RWB. Spence was obviously the cheaper option, and it sounded like Conte wasn't fully against that particular solution, so that's where we ended up.

So whilst I agree that there can be a heavy anti-Levy bias whenever something goes wrong, it's also fair to flag up the decisions which do lie mainly at Levy's door. And that's not even to say that Spence is a bad player, more that Levy and Conte were not on the same page which has led to Spence not getting game time and probably making his attitude worse.

 

[wrd]

I think that what you're saying can be true and false at the same time. I'm sure there were articles reporting that Paratici was scouting Spence, but hopefully we can agree that Levy wouldn't be the one to go and watch him. If Levy has asked Paratici to go and have a look at Spence, then people are going to see Paratici there in the flesh. It's then a very short jump to an online article reporting that "Paratici was seen scouting Spence" etc.

From what Trix was saying last summer, it sounded like Spence was a cog in the machine regarding an HG solution to the squad... whereby we could add an HG midfielder (Maddison/JWP) or could add Spence at RWB. Spence was obviously the cheaper option, and it sounded like Conte wasn't fully against that particular solution, so that's where we ended up.

So whilst I agree that there can be a heavy anti-Levy bias whenever something goes wrong, it's also fair to flag up the decisions which do lie mainly at Levy's door. And that's not even to say that Spence is a bad player, more that Levy and Conte were not on the same page which has led to Spence not getting game time and probably making his attitude worse.

Yeah and I think there should be a difference between agenda and acknowledging who made what error. I've been vocal this summer about where I think the clubs priorities lay but I'd also argue that, last year we made the mistake of trying to take an approach where we took risks with signings and we did so with a manager who is clearly a bad fit for that approach. This summer we have continued with that approach (or more to the point, we still have the players as a result of that approach), but we have hired a manager who fits into what is trying to be achieved by Levy and Co.

So whilst I'd argue that we still don't know if the mistakes Trix is alluding to will be not happen again, regarding; getting a manager to agree to one thing if it results in another but that result not coming. However there's signs the mistake of trying to do two things at odds with eachother have been rectified, that's a positive thing. I think we have to accept that when mistakes are made, some thing's can't be salvaged, in this instance, making the most of Spence. All we can do is move forward.

 

[PLTuck]

It's what we've done / tried to do since ENIC came in. Buy players early in their careers before they become £60-£70m players. Sometimes it works (Bale, Dele for a few years, Lennon, Carrick, Berbatov, Modric etc) sometimes it doesn't (notably NDombele and now Spence).

Gift Orban is another who we either gamble on now, or someone else probably will. There is no guarantee he will become a superstar but I don't see anyone on SC saying don't sign him in case it doesn't work out.

EDIT: The biggest error Levy has made over the past 4 years is employ managers that don't jive with this established way of working.

 

[philll]

Thanks, I don't know why Levy has been getting the blame for this signing.

Probably because he pushed the signing through against the wishes of the manager. Just a guess.

 

[Yiddo100]

Jack Clarke springs to mind, too.

Don’t think he was a bad buy at all just looks at how he’s going now, maybe we bought him a window or 2 earlier but don’t necessarily think it was bad scouting.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

I'll be honest mate, I'd argue you're accusing people of doing what you're actually guilty of in the reverse, Trix has literally provided evidence of what he said before. So I'd consider whether your judgement of others is revealing what you yourself are doing.

I wouldn't say using articles from mainstream football journalists that specifically state our Director of Football was scouting a player that we eventually signed, is doing 'mental gymnastics' to prove Spence wasn't just a 'Levy signing'. Especially as it was actually Paratici's job to identify and sign players. It's hardly a stretch that he might have therefore been the driver behind the signing.

However, I will admit that I did forget about @Trix 's info about needing Spence for the HG quota, and that Conte was willing to compromise. It does show there is more nuance than it simply just being a signing that Levy apparently pushed for because he was being 'cheap' or whatever. It still also says to me that Paratici scouting the player meant he had some influence and wasn't just being undermined.

 

[jezz]

Nobody gets all transfers right.
Spence is one we didn't get right.
Best move him on and wish him luck in his career.

 

[wrd]

I wouldn't say using articles from mainstream football journalists that specifically state our Director of Football was scouting a player that we eventually signed, is doing 'mental gymnastics' to prove Spence wasn't just a 'Levy signing'. Especially as it was actually Paratici's job to identify and sign players. It's hardly a stretch that he might have therefore been the driver behind the signing.

However, I will admit that I did forget about @Trix 's info about needing Spence for the HG quota, and that Conte was willing to compromise. It does show there is more nuance than it simply just being a signing that Levy apparently pushed for because he was being 'cheap' or whatever. It still also says to me that Paratici scouting the player meant he had some influence and wasn't just being undermined.

There is more nuance certainly, I think that we can find articles to suit whichever which way we wish to see something though and so I do think using articles can be apart of mental gymnastics. My point rather was using the phrase mental gymnastics to describe posters opinions rather than saying, they're looking at it too simplistically is a way of going to great lengths to ensure that Levy is well guarded from any criticism and conflating their judgement of this situation with hating Levy, is doing just that.

 

[brasil_spur]

and thank God we didn't give conte the shit he wanted

Yes and no.

If we weren't going to give Conte the shit he wanted then he should never have been hired. Once we had hired him and he got us to 4th he should have been backed or sacked. Keeping him as manager and not backing him led to the fucking mess we saw last season.

 

[Johnny J]

Spence sums up where we sometimes go badly wrong with transfers. Poor attitude that people were questioning even before he signed. Conte didn't really want him but accepts him as a compromise. And now after failing to impress, he's taking up a squad space and we need to ship him out.

What an absolutely epic waste of time and resources.