Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[mattspur1]

As I keep saying there is a huge amount of room between being all out attack and all out defence. It isn't an either/or situation and neither will win you the league. It's about finding a balance somewhere in between. I don't think we are far off it and it's about tactical tweaks imo rather than a total shift in mentality.

100% agree however, I'm concerned he won't tweak the system.

 

[easley91]

48 hours since Wolves (give or take). Last few games we have been below the level we set at the start of the season and there are a few reasons for that. The disruptions we have had with injuries and suspensions have played a major part. We were down to bare bones for a while, and didn't have the subs to rest players. We had three players away on international duty last month, and two have just come back (Son played like three 120 minute games). The system we play means players get fatigued quicker and until now we haven't had a sufficient bench to allow rotation for rest.

This is Ange's first season, so I expected more downs than there have been to be honest. I expected us to be around 6th, so we're ahead or just about where I saw us being. It's not like he took over a team that was already playing a similar style, he ripped up the defensive mindset and we had to start from scratch.

If we're like this in the second half of next season, then yes think about changes at that point. He has only had two windows though, a lot of younger players and players new to the league.

Patience is what is needed by fans, though in this day and age I know some won't have it.

 

[dontcallme]

I think it was really the two world class signings of Allison and VVD which propelled Liverpool to the title.

Liverpool conceded 50 goals during Klopp’s first season and 42 the following season - nearly twice as many as we did that season!

Agree. Playing style is important but player recruitment is the real key.

Under Klopp, they started off by spending big but not huge on the likes of Salah and Mane. Once those signings excelled and they needed top quality they spent world record fees for a keeper and defender.

I think the signings of Udogie, Sarr, Bissouma, Maddison etc makes us not far off having a well rounded squad. 2 good quality wing backs and we're around the level of having 2 good to very good players in each position.

The next step is buying ready made top quality. Interesting to see if we do it.

 

[Real_madyidd]

The next step is buying ready made top quality. Interesting to see if we do it.

I disagree. It's about buying the players that will be top quality for us and that is why it is subjective. People associate " ready made, top quality " with cost and will say that we haven't done it if we don't spend fortunes. you them look at our historic big money transfers and maybe think again.

 

[dontcallme]

I disagree. It's about buying the players that will be top quality for us and that is why it is subjective. People associate " ready made, top quality " with cost and will say that we haven't done it if we don't spend fortunes. you them look at our historic big money transfers and maybe think again.

Disagree. That's because the players we spent big on weren't actual top quality.

Anyone who had watched VVD play knew he was one of the world's best. He was available and Liverpool spent the required funds to get him.

Over the last 2 seasons our net spend has been over £100m per season. That has involved us buying numerous first team players. If we get 2 wing backs then we aren't going to need to buy 5 or 6 first team squad players in a window.

In the last 2 seasons if a £80m player became available it was hard to justify it as we needed so many other positions filled.

Our financial situation is different now and many teams abroad are not in the financial position to turn down big money. So yes, I maintain if the right player becomes available for £80m then within the next couple of windows we might be able to justify a move, whereas we haven't before.

 

[Styopa]

I disagree. It's about buying the players that will be top quality for us and that is why it is subjective. People associate " ready made, top quality " with cost and will say that we haven't done it if we don't spend fortunes. you them look at our historic big money transfers and maybe think again.

It’s not just about cost but sometimes you have to buy big if they are the right players. Liverpool spent nearly 150 million euros on Alisson and van Dijk. They went from 75 points the season before Alisson and v Dijk joined, and conceding 38 goals, to 97 points the season they joined and conceding 22 goals. That’s a huge difference! 22 additional points and 16 fewer goals conceded.

 

[TOLBINY]

Think in his 2nd season they were bottom of the league after 4 games weren't they...

Most top level managers given time and the right players/resources to fit their system will in the end get you a good output.

Ange has got us well on our way there but this season was never going to be the one where it all clicked all the time that was never going to be possible never mind with the injuries, suspensions, lack of match fitness, AFCON & Asia games we've had to content with.

Give Ange 5-6 more this summer and next season we should be more consistent, but don't be surprised if next season we aren't challenging for the title just yet, this is a really really tough league, the toughest in the world, we will go on an upward trajectory but as Ange has said there is no specific timeline, it may go faster or take longer than we think, lets just stick with it and see

What is your definition of top level manager? is Ange one? Is Conte?

 

[mil1lion]

It’s funny, because mostly Mourinho and Conte’s “systems” weren’t called into question. Especially Conte’s. People moaned about it being boring, but the accepted explanation was that Conte’s system wasn’t really the problem, it was that the players we had couldn’t play Conte’s system.

It’s kind of the reverse with Ange. Instead of saying we need a few more players to fully implement his system, there’s lots of talk about Ange’s system being the problem rather than the players.

Not sure about that, a lot were questioning the 343 and being outnumbered in central midfield. That was part of his system and he seemed happy to be outnumbered there to allow an extra man further forward on the breaks. So people didn't agree to his system. Also Jose was criticised for playing 2 defensive midfielders and not enough attacking play in his 4231. That's as much down to his choice of the system because you can play a more advanced central midfielder instead of 2 defensive ones. He always wanted to have 5 players back at all times though so would only allow 1 full back to push on with his remaining 3 defenders and 2 midfielders sitting back.

With Ange it seems a little bit too attacking, almost Ossie like at times. He needs to find that balance but I'm sure he will.

 

[dontcallme]

It’s not just about cost but sometimes you have to buy big if they are the right players. Liverpool spent nearly 150 million euros on Alisson and van Dijk. They went from 75 points the season before Alisson and v Dijk joined, and conceding 38 goals, to 97 points the season they joined and conceding 22 goals.

Absolutely, I'm not saying that we shouldn't buy a Maddison, Bissouma etc if they become available for a fair price. But if we can get those 2 wing backs then we can at least be open to a larger transfer fee should the right player become available.

 

[Westmorlandspur]

To be fair, the same might be said of the Premier League these days. This will probably be the seventh season since anyone other than Man. C or Liverpool have won the league, and Man C have won it six times out of those seven seasons.

Also, Pep’s Man C get points totals comparable to the the winners of the Scottish league, and also comparable goal differences in Pep’s best seasons.

Yes but there is a huge drop off to the rest of the league in scotland . City are competing with clubs who have won numerous champions leagues and league titles . Also have large amounts of money and some of the best coaches in the world.
It’s not great if the same team wins the league all the time but from 70s to 80s Liverpool finished first or second for 15 consecutive seasons.. won 3 times in a row twice I believe. Man Utd won it 3 times in a row twice . First 21 premier lge titles…Man Utd won 13.

 

[Styopa]

What is your definition of top level manager? is Ange one? Is Conte?

I think most managers in the Premier League are by definition top level. From Pep and Klopp to Emery to ten Hag to DeZerbi to Poch. Even the likes of Dyche and Nuno have proven themselves at the level of the Premier League. It doesn’t mean they’ll all work out at every job they have but most have proved themselves at the highest level in some way or another.

Obviously you have “elite” level managers like Pep, Klopp and, yes, Conte who have won leagues. But usually these types of managers are at clubs who are expected to win leagues. Man C and Chelsea have won leagues and Champions Leagues with multiple managers. That’s not to diminish the job those managers have done- partly they get the top jobs because they are elite- and Pep has dominated this league - but they are usually working with the best players.

 

[mil1lion]

Yes but there is a huge drop off to the rest of the league in scotland . City are competing with clubs who have won numerous champions leagues and league titles . Also have large amounts of money and some of the best coaches in the world.
It’s not great if the same team wins the league all the time but from 70s to 80s Liverpool finished first or second for 15 consecutive seasons.. won 3 times in a row twice I believe. Man Utd won it 3 times in a row twice . First 21 premier lge titles…Man Utd won 13.

He has better players and resources here. I don't think it matters the level he came from. I'm not even sure the levels between Australia then Japan then Scotland. I'm sure it's a step up each time just as the Premier League is now. Even Redknapp only really managed smaller teams and went up levels with the players we had. He should have the quality available to him to make it work here but we do need to remember it's only year one. He hasn't completed the squad that fits his style yet but he also has better resources to sign them here than he had previously. It's a big test but even Pep and Klopp needed time to get it right in this league so we should be patient with Ange.

 

[Styopa]

Yes but there is a huge drop off to the rest of the league in scotland . City are competing with clubs who have won numerous champions leagues and league titles . Also have large amounts of money and some of the best coaches in the world.
It’s not great if the same team wins the league all the time but from 70s to 80s Liverpool finished first or second for 15 consecutive seasons.. won 3 times in a row twice I believe. Man Utd won it 3 times in a row twice . First 21 premier lge titles…Man Utd won 13.

This is true, but whatever way you cut it Man C have been utterly dominant in the league under Pep, and that’s reflected both in their points totals and their goal differences. Up to last season, Liverpool were the only team to finish within 15 points of them since Pep’s second season. If not for Liverpool, Man C would have won the league most seasons by 15 - 20 points.

The thing is you can’t say Scotland is a two horse race and deny the Premier League has been just because the overall quality of the league is stronger. It’s still been the same team winning it every year for seven or eight years. It’s still been the same one or two teams finishing 15 or 20 points ahead of the rest.

I suppose at least the dominant team or two teams tends to change over the decades in England, whereas in most other countries it seems to be more fixed. Celtic/Rangers, Barca/Madrid, Bayern Munich, PSG etc

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

Which is a big part of the reason why we need depth suited to the system though. At City, Guardiola realised early that Phillips just didn't fit in. When he had an injury, he'd play any combination of Lewis at 18 y/o, or Silva dropping deeper, or Nunes after he arrived. When we have an injury, or an AFCON absence, or a suspension, we rely on Hojbjerg and Skipp. Two good players who simply don't suit the system. That doesn't just throw our game off for a week, it means that, now our better mids are back (rushed back, because we needed them), the rest of the team aren't quite in sync either.

That means we need CMs who can press and play progressively, in the first XI and in the wings. Why do you think we're so keen on Gallagher and were linked to Joao Gomes heavily in January?

Isn’t this is essentially what Ange did by playing to full backs at centre back instead of Dier?

 

[Rout-Ledge]

you them look at our historic big money transfers and maybe think again.

Not just ours, but most PL big money signings don’t really work out as planned. Pogba for £90m, Grealish for £100m, Sancho for £70m, Lukaku for £80m…I’m sure there are many more (just look at Chelsea).

The very best signings of recent years in the PL haven’t been the ones that immediately stood out as established top quality for big money. The likes of De Bruyne and Salah were seen as risks at the time, because they had already ‘failed’ at Chelsea.

We’ve already shown what we need to do: scour the likes of Serie A and the Bundesliga for the best up and coming talent. We don’t need to change our approach, we just need to carry on what we are doing. If we get the next Van de Ven or Udogie but in the attacking positions we now need to focus on then we’ll do well.

 

[Styopa]

Not just ours, but most PL big money signings don’t really work out as planned. Pogba for £90m, Grealish for £100m, Sancho for £70m, Lukaku for £80m…I’m sure there are many more (just look at Chelsea).

The very best signings of recent years in the PL haven’t been the ones that immediately stood out as established top quality for big money. The likes of De Bruyne and Salah were seen as risks at the time, because they had already ‘failed’ at Chelsea.

We’ve already shown what we need to do: scour the likes of Serie A and the Bundesliga for the best up and coming talent. We don’t need to change our approach, we just need to carry on what we are doing. If we get the next Van de Ven or Udogie but in the attacking positions we now need to focus on then we’ll do well.

A bit harsh to say Grealish hasn’t worked out. He was important to helping City win the treble. Sure he was expensive but I’m not sure I would put him in the same category as the others you have mentioned.

But a lot of the time City don’t have to pay the biggest transfer fees because they have other ways to attract the top players. They can also relentless spend relatively large amounts on multiple players each summer, so their margin for error is large. For example this summer alone:

Josko Gvardiol Centre-Back	21	€90.00m
Matheus Nunes Central Midfield	25	€62.00m
Jérémy Doku Left Winger	21	€60.00m
Mateo Kovacic Central Midfield	29	€29.10m

For us the margin of error is much smaller. If we get two or three of the van de Ven or Bentancur signings wrong, it’s a big deal for us.

 

[newbie]

I think if we are all being honest in those first 10 games there were more than a few that could quite easily have gone the other way and ended in defeat. I personally don’t think we’ve played especially well in more than a handful of games this season.

we also should have destroyed Villa and westham, and should have beaten Brentford

 

[newbie]

A bit harsh to say Grealish hasn’t worked out. He was important to helping City win the treble. Sure he was expensive but I’m not sure I would put him in the same category as the others you have mentioned.

But a lot of the time City don’t have to pay the biggest transfer fees because they have other ways to attract the top players. They can also relentless spend relatively large amounts on multiple players each summer, so their margin for error is large. For example this summer alone:

Josko Gvardiol Centre-Back	21	€90.00m
Matheus Nunes Central Midfield	25	€62.00m
Jérémy Doku Left Winger	21	€60.00m
Mateo Kovacic Central Midfield	29	€29.10m

For us the margin of error is much smaller. If we get two or three of the van de Ven or Bentancur signings wrong, it’s a big deal for us.

you also dont know what city spend off the books

 

[Rout-Ledge]

A bit harsh to say Grealish hasn’t worked out. He was important to helping City win the treble. Sure he was expensive but I’m not sure I would put him in the same category as the others you have mentioned.

But a lot of the time City don’t have to pay the biggest transfer fees because they have other ways to attract the top players. They can also relentless spend relatively large amounts on multiple players each summer, so their margin for error is large. For example this summer alone:

Josko Gvardiol Centre-Back	21	€90.00m
Matheus Nunes Central Midfield	25	€62.00m
Jérémy Doku Left Winger	21	€60.00m
Mateo Kovacic Central Midfield	29	€29.10m

For us the margin of error is much smaller. If we get two or three of the van de Ven or Bentancur signings wrong, it’s a big deal for us.

Yeah I agree. Grealish isn’t the best example. But he’s still City’s record signing and can’t really nail down a consistent starting spot. So he’s still an example of a market where the biggest fees don’t actually guarantee a clear upgrade on what you’ve got.

 

[Yantino]

The best strategy for us is definitely to follow the data and look for potential talent, just like we have been doing.

Occasionaly an opportunity will present itself to sign one or two quality, established players but that should be the exception to the rule.