Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[PaulM]

Ange is a victim of his own success here. Before the season people were saying that this season would be rough, that it would be a transitional season where we'll see brilliance but also endure a lot of frustrating matches. Then the season starts, we hit the ground running, and everyone raises their expectations.

He won the league with Celtic in his first season there, but it was quite close, and people who watch that league have said that it wasn't until the season after that they really hit their stride.

In Japan, he won the league in his first season, but the team weren't top of the league before the third to last gameweek. After GW 8, they were 9th.

He's not really a victim of anything. He's just being held up to the same scrutiny that all managers face.

We can all come on here and say "Stay behind Ange, he's gonna lead us to glory, trust the process" but it doesn't lead to great discussion. There are some concerning signs and it's right they are questioned and discussed.

It doesn't mean people have turned on him or anything. I haven't seen or heard of one Spurs fan who isn't behind him 100%. Even in the stadium last night, people stayed behind the team. Last season, a single defeat or bad half triggered boos.

 

[matthew.absurdum]

In Japan, he won the league in his first season, but the team weren't top of the league before the third to last gameweek. After GW 8, they were 9th.

Ange won the Japan League in his second season. He finished 12th in his first season

 

[marion52]

All I’ll say to anyone already calling for his head - be careful what you wish for!
What other managers out there would give us so much hope?
We all have to be patient, give the time for players to be added to the squad and for injured to return.

 

[PaulM]

All I’ll say to anyone already calling for his head - be careful what you wish for!
What other managers out there would give us so much hope?
We all have to be patient, give the time for players to be added to the squad and for injured to return.

No-one is calling for his head. Anyone who contemplated that would be an imbecile.

 

[ljinko888]

This is the bane of our play. We play lovely football to get up the pitch and then it grinds down once we are near the box. The obvious answer is to have the wide players to run to the byline instead of checking back on the inside. Also sometimes whipping an early cross. We are making too many passes in and around the box and taking too many touches that if anything just helps the other team crowd us out and have to restart build up by going back again.

This even happened playing against 9 men where instead of stretching the play and using the full width of the pitch to create attacking moves we played into Liverpool's hands until the 95th minute by playing within a small box. Width is needed desperately at least on one wing.

 

[The Scarecrow]

He's not really a victim of anything. He's just being held up to the same scrutiny that all managers face.

We can all come on here and say "Stay behind Ange, he's gonna lead us to glory, trust the process" but it doesn't lead to great discussion. There are some concerning signs and it's right they are questioned and discussed.

It doesn't mean people have turned on him or anything. I haven't seen or heard of one Spurs fan who isn't behind him 100%. Even in the stadium last night, people stayed behind the team. Last season, a single defeat or bad half triggered boos.

At the very least he's a victim of extremely back luck with injuries and suspensions. It's baffling to me that our form with half our first XI out is given more weight than our form with a fit first XI.

Ange won the Japan League in his second season. He finished 12th in his first season

Yeah, you're right. I got the dates mixed up. That strengthens my point even further, though.

 

[PaulM]

This is the bane of our play. We play lovely football to get up the pitch and then it grinds down once we are near the box. The obvious answer is to have the wide players to run to the byline instead of checking back on the inside. Also sometimes whipping an early cross. We are making too many passes in and around the box and taking too many touches that if anything just helps the other team crowd us out and have to restart build up by going back again.

This even happened playing against 9 men where instead of stretching the play and using the full width of the pitch to create attacking moves we played into Liverpool's hands until the 95th minute by playing within a small box. Width is needed desperately at least on one wing.

It's a good question. There are two things for me watching last night's game.

The first one here, should we have someone on the overlap to pull another of their players out of the centre. It's about creating some space when it gets to this point and Deki is occupying the same space as Sonny here.

Secondly, too often we were a little slow to get moving and it allowed West Ham to get set in this formation.

 

[Styopa]

Obviously no one is above criticism, but at the start of this thread most people were talking about patience, about how we would have to bear with poor results, collapses, a fair few hammerings etc and that this season would be a transition season and the beginning of a project like Pep, Klopp, Arteta etc.

So it’s a bit weird to see some people wobbling already. The issue is clearly the injuries and suspensions we have been dealing with since Chelsea. That was the moment the form turned. But everyone knew and agreed we would struggle if we had injuries to key players because the squad depth is not there.

Yeah maybe if Ange was willing to be a bit more flexible with the way we play we turn one or two of those defeats into draws. But we’re trying to build something here, an identity and way of playing. If we abandon that as soon as things get tough, what message does that send out?

We’re not even halfway through the first season of what we hope we will be a five season plus project. And because we have a few close defeats we should alter the way we play after our most exciting start to a season in about ten years? That doesn’t make sense to me.

 

[Cambridge Spur]

I think that I truly hate the modern game. ‘Philosophies’, ‘Xg’, ‘possession’, ‘attacking football’….its all bollocks. What counts and what always will count is the score at the end of the game. We can talk all high and mighty about playing the game the right way and being better than these so called teams but it’s the result that counts. For the record I love Ange and truly want him to succeed but I love every manager we’ve had at one time or another. We were great for periods under Mourinho and Conte, it’s only when we lost a few that talks of ‘turgid football’ started. They were both stubborn and stuck to their own philosophies which ultimately cost them. It depends on your outlook I guess but I thought the football last night was awful. Pass, pass, pass, pass with no cutting edge. It may be a different way but still pretty awful to watch all the same. I want to win and I do think Ange is the man to get us there but will he get these so called perfect players to play his so called perfect way of playing. History suggests otherwise. I think if we are ever going to be successful, the manager needs to be flexible in their approach no matter what their core beliefs. I really hope Ange is that man but ultimately results will determine this.

 

[PaulM]

Obviously no one is above criticism, but at the start of this thread most people were talking about patience, about how we would have to bear with poor results, collapses, a fair few hammerings etc and that this season would be a transition season and the beginning of a project like Pep, Klopp, Arteta etc.

So it’s a bit weird to see some people wobbling already. The issue is clearly the injuries and suspensions we have been dealing with since Chelsea. That was the moment the form turned. But everyone knew and agreed we would struggle if we had injuries to key players because the squad depth is not there.

Yeah maybe if Ange was willing to be a bit more flexible with the way we play we turn one or two of those defeats into draws. But we’re trying to build something here, an identity and way of playing. If we abandon that as soon as things get tough, what message does that send out?

We’re not even halfway through the first season of what we hope we will be a five season plus project. And because we have a few close defeats we should alter the way we play after our most exciting start to a season in about ten years? That doesn’t make sense to me.

Everyone pretty much is bearing with it, there aren't many wobbling and we've lost 4 from 5. Had we lost 4 from 5 under Conte, the stadium would have been toxic - it wasn't last night. But there are people questioning aspects of Ange's approach which is fair enough. Some of the things we're seeing now potentially could be fundamental issues with his approach. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. Time will tell. But it's fun in its own way to discuss it.

 

[Styopa]

. I want to win and I do think Ange is the man to get us there but will he get these so called perfect players to play his so called perfect way of playing. History suggests otherwise.

I think this is unfair. Look at the players who Ange has brought into the team who instantly improved the team -Vicario, Porro, Udogie, VDV, Sarr, Bissouma, Maddison. Half of them were here already and the others were hardly unrealistic “so called” perfect players. They’re just good, young players.

We just need a few more of them, which hopefully we can do over the next few windows. I see nothing unrealistic about that.

 

[NEVILLEB]

In terms of pass and move that was amazing football from Ange.

Unfortunately we still have some right duffers but if he can replace them with quality we’ll be flying

 

[Styopa]

Everyone pretty much is bearing with it, there aren't many wobbling and we've lost 4 from 5. Had we lost 4 from 5 under Conte, the stadium would have been toxic - it wasn't last night. But there are people questioning aspects of Ange's approach which is fair enough. Some of the things we're seeing now potentially could be fundamental issues with his approach. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. Time will tell. But it's fun in its own way to discuss it.

Yeah it’s interesting to discuss.

The thing with Conte (apart from the football and maybe also his personality) is that he was meant to be a “win now” manager, not a project manager. He has never been a project manager anywhere. And generally he has managed the clubs with the biggest budgets in the league. Clearly Spurs was a step down for him after Juve, Chelsea, Inter etc. It didn’t feel like he was going to be here for the long term so of course people have less patience when they know the guy is probably leaving at the end of the season.

Ange is totally different. This is his biggest ever job. You can really believe he will want to stay here for more than one or two seasons. His footballing philosophy is a lot more palatable to most Spurs fans than Conte’s. His personality is a lot more appealing to most people than Conte’s. I think people have got good reasons for wanting to give him more time.

it’s also worth bearing in mind that we hit a bad patch with Conte in his first season too and people didn’t really turn on him. It was only in the second season, especially when it was clear he wasn’t committed, that the mood really changed.

For example between the end of Jan and beginning of Feb we lost 4 out of 5 matches during Conte’s first season.

 

[Gareth88]

It's a good question. There are two things for me watching last night's game.

The first one here, should we have someone on the overlap to pull another of their players out of the centre. It's about creating some space when it gets to this point and Deki is occupying the same space as Sonny here.

Secondly, too often we were a little slow to get moving and it allowed West Ham to get set in this formation.

Agree, we looked to slow things when we got to their half but that could down to two things their very well structured defence/formation and the worry of getting caught on the counter. To often we slowed down and then went side to side with the ball rather than whipping it in fast.

 

[rossdapep]

A

It's a good question. There are two things for me watching last night's game.

The first one here, should we have someone on the overlap to pull another of their players out of the centre. It's about creating some space when it gets to this point and Deki is occupying the same space as Sonny here.

Secondly, too often we were a little slow to get moving and it allowed West Ham to get set in this formation.

Yeah in the first half we saw a lot of occasions where Deki had the ball on the corner of the area and he had 2 players in very close proximity.

This is fine if someone can make a blind run in behind and those players combine quickly.

But what was happening was they were taking too many touches and then it all got crowded and there was no space to play through.

They need to switch it quickly and try the same thing in the other side but a number of times we would come inside and then go back to Deki despite the WH defence already clogging up that area.

This is one reason why we badly miss Maddison as he quickly switches it or supports play from both sides.

Lo Celso wasn't really supporting on either side and we kept the ball for too long on the right.

Players need to recognise when they just to quickly switch it and even switch it back again when space has opened.

 

[rossdapep]

This is the bane of our play. We play lovely football to get up the pitch and then it grinds down once we are near the box. The obvious answer is to have the wide players to run to the byline instead of checking back on the inside. Also sometimes whipping an early cross. We are making too many passes in and around the box and taking too many touches that if anything just helps the other team crowd us out and have to restart build up by going back again.

This even happened playing against 9 men where instead of stretching the play and using the full width of the pitch to create attacking moves we played into Liverpool's hands until the 95th minute by playing within a small box. Width is needed desperately at least on one wing.

You could also argue that having a player who has excellent dribbling ability and can both ways receives it in these spaces and tries to quickly turn and attack that space behind.

Deki really struggles with it in shorter spaces.

We need someone who is going to just go instead of checking frequently

 

[TOLBINY]

I think that I truly hate the modern game. ‘Philosophies’, ‘Xg’, ‘possession’, ‘attacking football’….its all bollocks. What counts and what always will count is the score at the end of the game. We can talk all high and mighty about playing the game the right way and being better than these so called teams but it’s the result that counts. For the record I love Ange and truly want him to succeed but I love every manager we’ve had at one time or another. We were great for periods under Mourinho and Conte, it’s only when we lost a few that talks of ‘turgid football’ started. They were both stubborn and stuck to their own philosophies which ultimately cost them. It depends on your outlook I guess but I thought the football last night was awful. Pass, pass, pass, pass with no cutting edge. It may be a different way but still pretty awful to watch all the same. I want to win and I do think Ange is the man to get us there but will he get these so called perfect players to play his so called perfect way of playing. History suggests otherwise. I think if we are ever going to be successful, the manager needs to be flexible in their approach no matter what their core beliefs. I really hope Ange is that man but ultimately results will determine this.

Great post - when Conte announced to the world that our players were part of the problem, what seemed like the majority of our fan base turned on him. Conte said more than once that we needed time and patience, but even during that period he got us and KEPT US in 4th place. That wasn't good enough for the majority of our fans, they were not prepared to allow a proven winner the time to build the squad he wanted beciase;

His football was boring - but it was effective & go back and look at some of the results and watch the goals we scored
He didn't want to be here - he didn't want to waste his time here if he wasn't going to be backed and I don't blame him

For me it made sense to invest in a squad re-build with a proven winner at the very top level, including the Premier League title. Orthers saw it differently and we are where we are. So, if we think Ange is the man then we must all get behind him and allow him time to build the sqaud he wants, and judge him on the results he gets with that squad. But I do hope that some of those who were quick to jump on Conte at least start to reflect on the job he did in making us top 4, however he went about it, and recognise that it was actually a great acheivement given the tools he had to work with - Kane is probably the olny one from the squad Conte inherited that we would want to see back with us.

This is the sqaud Conte inherited in November 2021 with the team in 10th place, no pre-season, a washed up Dele and Romero out injured til February 2022. The names in bold are those that have featured for Ange - only two of those, Romero and Son are regular starters for Ange when everyone is fit. Deki and Bentancur made their debuts in February 2022.

Loris / Hart

Emerson / Doherty

Romero / Dier / Sanchez / Tanganga / Rodon

Davies / Reguilon / Sessignon

PEH / Skipp / Winks / Ndombele / GLC

Kane / Son / Lucas / Bergwijn / Gil / Dele

 

[Yantino]

I think that I truly hate the modern game. ‘Philosophies’, ‘Xg’, ‘possession’, ‘attacking football’….its all bollocks. What counts and what always will count is the score at the end of the game. We can talk all high and mighty about playing the game the right way and being better than these so called teams but it’s the result that counts. For the record I love Ange and truly want him to succeed but I love every manager we’ve had at one time or another. We were great for periods under Mourinho and Conte, it’s only when we lost a few that talks of ‘turgid football’ started. They were both stubborn and stuck to their own philosophies which ultimately cost them. It depends on your outlook I guess but I thought the football last night was awful. Pass, pass, pass, pass with no cutting edge. It may be a different way but still pretty awful to watch all the same. I want to win and I do think Ange is the man to get us there but will he get these so called perfect players to play his so called perfect way of playing. History suggests otherwise. I think if we are ever going to be successful, the manager needs to be flexible in their approach no matter what their core beliefs. I really hope Ange is that man but ultimately results will determine this.

I like what you've said here but I think it's harsh to call last night awful. There was no end product and we gave away two goals. The possession was excellent and we moved the ball around well.

 

[C1w8]

Great post - when Conte announced to the world that our players were part of the problem, what seemed like the majority of our fan base turned on him. Conte said more than once that we needed time and patience, but even during that period he got us and KEPT US in 4th place. That wasn't good enough for the majority of our fans, they were not prepared to allow a proven winner the time to build the squad he wanted beciase;

His football was boring - but it was effective & go back and look at some of the results and watch the goals we scored
He didn't want to be here - he didn't want to waste his time here if he wasn't going to be backed and I don't blame him

For me it made sense to invest in a squad re-build with a proven winner at the very top level, including the Premier League title. Orthers saw it differently and we are where we are. So, if we think Ange is the man then we must all get behind him and allow him time to build the sqaud he wants, and judge him on the results he gets with that squad. But I do hope that some of those who were quick to jump on Conte at least start to reflect on the job he did in making us top 4, however he went about it, and recognise that it was actually a great acheivement given the tools he had to work with - Kane is probably the olny one from the squad Conte inherited that we would want to see back with us.

This is the sqaud Conte inherited in November 2021 with the team in 10th place, no pre-season, a washed up Dele and Romero out injured til February 2022. The names in bold are those that have featured for Ange - only two of those, Romero and Son are regular starters for Ange when everyone is fit. Deki and Bentancur made their debuts in February 2022.

Loris / Hart

Emerson / Doherty

Romero / Dier / Sanchez / Tanganga / Rodon

Davies / Reguilon / Sessignon

PEH / Skipp / Winks / Ndombele / GLC

Kane / Son / Lucas / Bergwijn / Gil / Dele

He absolutely did great for us getting 4th but I really struggle with this idea that Conte wouldve stayed and been invested in the project if he had been backed., and that's before getting into how much money you would expect to be spent/number of new players he needed to have been given in a very short amount of time for him to be considered fully "backed".

He could easily have signed a new contract and then just walked if he wasnt backed. We're being naive to expect a squad and fan base on side, and expect the club to spend money on players behind a manager who seemed likely to be gone in a few months time.

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

Given where we are in the table - I hope Ange makes the FA Cup a priority, and maybe we can make a decent run, while we get healthy.