Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[theShiznit]

Mate, if we hadnt reveived the two red cards on Monday we'd more than likely still be unbeaten.

Ill discipline has cost us massively, its that simple.

More than that. The knock on effect from the Udogie tackle onward caused every other problem in that game.

Without that reckless tackle from Udogie, the game doesn't turn into a fight (at that point at least) Which doesn't trigger Romero into fight mode and cause him to be sent off, which in turn VDV doesn't have to stand around for hours looking at VAR then go on a sprint, and the situation with Maddison doesn't arise with a full compliment either.

As i said at the time, it was a real sliding doors match for us.

No one could've foreseen just how damaging that match woulc/could be for us. I just hope something good can come out of it, whether that's one of the young CB's coming in or Gil/Gio taking their chance, or just getting Bentancur up to speed quicker, I'll take any crumb right now.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

Yep 3rd time winner..he's done well. In the last few months the general football world has been open mouthed in amazement at Ange and his system. Endless YT/MSM pieces about his brilliant effect on Spurs and are we going to win the title etc.

I've loved this period as much as anyone, but was always commenting here on how the praise was not being shared properly with the recruitment staff. The Fulham cup defeat spoke loud and clear. Ange.style was working so well...because of the brilliant players he had at his disposal. Take those away and our effectiveness drops like a stone.

It could be argued and some have, that we fall particularly far without our top guys because Ange won't adapt the style to fit the 2nd string qualities of the replacement players. In the SPL with a budget multiple times bigger than the oppositions maybe it all works, but the Prem is unforgiving.

Flexibility is something Ange will need without our elite players.

Doesn’t really matter what system you play them in, Dier, Davies, PEH etc will still all let us down.

Ange won’t change and so he shouldn’t. He’s building something just like Klopp and Pep did and they didn’t change they kept drilling the style of play into the squad and window by window got the improved players they needed to make it consistently effective.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

The last week of results definitely hurts but I'm backing Ange all the way. I never expected us to he flying so high this far into the season. I'm grateful we actually have a manager who wants to play attractive attacking football. He's earned credit in the bank to make some mistakes and I believe he needs to make these mistakes so that he can assess the rest of the squad properly.

Yesterday's results would have definitely showed him that the old guard is definitely not up for it. He is a man of principle and will stick to his way of playing and I appreciate that fully. This season was always going to be a learning curve with ups and downs.

I just feel we as fans got carried away and deep down we dreamed we could actually fight for the title. The realistic view is this wasn't going to happen this season, so its better to temper expectations and let Ange cook and do what he needs to build his squad with the players he can trust.

I agree with other he should just throw the youth in and just let them learn and gain experience in his system. I wouldn't necessarily say he got it wrong by not picking them before the old guard. I just think he felt that the more experienced heads could do a job for him, but they also let him down.

This could be the last we see of some of the old guard. I'm going to trust the process and let Ange do what he does. At least we have seen what his system is capable of with his best XI. That's not even the benchmark, that's just the basic way his team plays. Just imagine what his team can do next season with a full season of learning his system.

That's the real exciting part I can't wait for.

Fantastic post

 

[Japhet]

The last week of results definitely hurts but I'm backing Ange all the way. I never expected us to he flying so high this far into the season. I'm grateful we actually have a manager who wants to play attractive attacking football. He's earned credit in the bank to make some mistakes and I believe he needs to make these mistakes so that he can assess the rest of the squad properly.

Yesterday's results would have definitely showed him that the old guard is definitely not up for it. He is a man of principle and will stick to his way of playing and I appreciate that fully. This season was always going to be a learning curve with ups and downs.

I just feel we as fans got carried away and deep down we dreamed we could actually fight for the title. The realistic view is this wasn't going to happen this season, so its better to temper expectations and let Ange cook and do what he needs to build his squad with the players he can trust.

I agree with other he should just throw the youth in and just let them learn and gain experience in his system. I wouldn't necessarily say he got it wrong by not picking them before the old guard. I just think he felt that the more experienced heads could do a job for him, but they also let him down.

This could be the last we see of some of the old guard. I'm going to trust the process and let Ange do what he does. At least we have seen what his system is capable of with his best XI. That's not even the benchmark, that's just the basic way his team plays. Just imagine what his team can do next season with a full season of learning his system.

That's the real exciting part I can't wait for.

I don't know that he's made 'mistakes' as such. He could have chucked Ashley Phillips in there yesterday, but he's seen a whole load of him in training so I trust Ange to know whether he's up to a game like that. He obviously thought not. He went with experience and it almost paid off. He could have gone with LoCelso but chose PEH instead and I'm sure there were reasons for that too. There was so much disruption going into the game that it made sense to go with as much experience as possible. I thought Dier, Davies and PEH did OK overall but it has highlighted that we need better squad depth which needs addressing in January.

 

[teedee]

More than that. The knock on effect from the Udogie tackle onward caused every other problem in that game.

Without that reckless tackle from Udogie, the game doesn't turn into a fight (at that point at least) Which doesn't trigger Romero into fight mode and cause him to be sent off, which in turn VDV doesn't have to stand around for hours looking at VAR then go on a sprint, and the situation with Maddison doesn't arise with a full compliment either.

As i said at the time, it was a real sliding doors match for us.

No one could've foreseen just how damaging that match woulc/could be for us. I just hope something good can come out of it, whether that's one of the young CB's coming in or Gil/Gio taking their chance, or just getting Bentancur up to speed quicker, I'll take any crumb right now.

I agree about the lack of discipline. Udogie was stupid, making that challenge when on a yellow, but he's young and let's hope he learns from it. Romero is an idiot at times and although he has improved this season he still has that recklessness in him, a recklessness that has cost us dearly. Bissouma also worries me. Yesterday, on four yellows he committed a totally unnecessary foul in the opposition half and received another caution and then smiles as he gets cautioned. I hope the smile was from embarrassment. I love his skill, but he makes so many silly challenges and needs to do much better.

 

[pablo73]

Any comparisons with Conte are way, way off the mark.

Ange doesn't need 'elite' players in each position, he just needs players who can play in a certain way and preferably don't have the turning circle of an oil tanker.

A couple of transfer windows where hopefully we get in some more players who are better suited to the way we now play and ship out the ones who aren't and then we won't see this massive drop off in quality when reserves come in.

In the meantime I hope he never players Dier again and gives Phillips a go & also plays Lo Celso rather than Hojberg.

Obviously the guy is not infallible but he's done a pretty amazing job so far, not just on the football side but also in terms of the sense of unity and purpose he has brought to the whole club.

 

[McGoose]

My view is the best managers very rarely pivot/adjust style from game to game based on injuries or a bad result/conceding a goal (klopp and pep have both had the occasional bad run but typically due to injuries or squad rebuild). As a fan you either fall into the camp of wanting to see a consistent approach and “identity” or its results driven approach where the focus is very much on nullifying the opponent on a weekly basis. Having watched Poch, Jose, conte and now Ange I know what I prefer. Of course criticism is a part of life and unavoidable but Ange is trying to imbed a style and approach and yesterday was more of a message to the board that the depth just isn’t there. If we really want Ange to try and grind out and change his philosophy and outlook on the game to accommodate the necessity of Dier, Davies, Pierre etc just to potentially pick up a few more points in Nov/Dec then I think it’s a very short term perspective. Ultimately it will result in those that have already made great strides losing a bit of faith. We are building something therefore you have to expose squad depth and those players that can’t or won’t adapt to the vision. After a couple of windows, if we are still conceding points as a result of game management then I’d hope Ange will take on any criticism coming his way.

Great post. Completely agree with this. I think we could see some short-term gains if he accommodates for the likes of Dier and Davies by playing differently but I believe it will hurt us long-term. For me this is much more about long-term than just this season. I know others will disagree but after being "pragmatic" with Mourinho and Conte I will have a lot of patience with Ange as long as he sticks to his philosophy.

 

[dontcallme]

I think his immediate picking, and relying, on Udogie and Sarr show he’s not reluctant to play young players or those lacking Prem experience.

If he’s not playing Phillips when our 1st choice centre backs are out, he probably has a good reason and I trust his instincts.

I am of the belief that if we were to compete at the top this season the stars had to align and our spine of Vic, Romero, VDV, Sarr, Bissouma and Maddison had to remain ever present.

We can still have a good season but my short-term optimism has gone down.

 

[Gareth88]

The reserves can't play how the manager wants full stop. Having extra games isn't going to make senior pro's in the latter stages of their careers faster, more mobile or technically better than they are.
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I know fans want to defend him to the hilt but no player or manager is devoid of criticism. Yes he's just won manager of the month for the third time and deserves huge amounts of praise for that, but he equally got it very wrong against Wolves. Something has to change from that side going forward be it in the selection or tactics or we are on a hiding to nothing every week going forward.

With the return of Udogie that provides a little more stability at the back but what can we really change? If Ange changes the style and philosophy now is that something that would unsettle the squad? If Phillips is thrown in and gets off to a bad start that could shatter his confidence. The midfield is devoid of that spark Maddison brought that was unlocking Son bringing others into play. Do we have anyone in the ranks that is close to Maddison's levels of creative threat?

 

[theShiznit]

I agree about the lack of discipline. Udogie was stupid, making that challenge when on a yellow, but he's young and let's hope he learns from it. Romero is an idiot at times and although he has improved this season he still has that recklessness in him, a recklessness that has cost us dearly. Bissouma also worries me. Yesterday, on four yellows he committed a totally unnecessary foul in the opposition half and received another caution and then smiles as he gets cautioned. I hope the smile was from embarrassment. I love his skill, but he makes so many silly challenges and needs to do much better.

I Didn't mention Udogie's second yellow.

Good first two footed lunge on sterling was the turning point in the whole game.
That was before Romero had put a foot out of line.
We all suspected it was still in him but up until that match he hasn't shown that side of his play this season.

At the point Udogie slid in on sterling for good second yellow we were already well stretched and the were creating chances, so don't blame him as much there, even though it was the lazy option.

Bissouma has taken a working downturn though but thought he was unlucky with that booking. maybe that will hasten RB's permanent reintroduction into the team though.

 

[Trix]

With the return of Udogie that provides a little more stability at the back but what can we really change? If Ange changes the style and philosophy now is that something that would unsettle the squad? If Phillips is thrown in and gets off to a bad start that could shatter his confidence. The midfield is devoid of that spark Maddison brought that was unlocking Son bringing others into play. Do we have anyone in the ranks that is close to Maddison's levels of creative threat?

We have GLC, Kulu, Bentancur, Donley. They might not be at Madison's level as a 10 but they aren't PEH.

I'm not asking for a complete change in tactics or a total revamp of the team selection. I'm saying there needs to be some compromises one way or another.

Drop me he lene 5-10 yards whilst we have such a slow back line.

Not expect them to pass out from the back under pressure every time leading to constantly turning over the ball in our own half.

It's like owning a Michelin star restaurant and when your head chef gets ill bringing in the guy from the dog and duck and expecting the same quality of food. Just tweak the menu to suit FFS. It doesn't have to be whole sale changes but as I've been saying all week those players selected Saturday just can't play that way and it really is as simple as that. Just depends how many points he's willing to sacrifice I guess.

 

[spursgirls]

I agree about the lack of discipline. Udogie was stupid, making that challenge when on a yellow, but he's young and let's hope he learns from it. Romero is an idiot at times and although he has improved this season he still has that recklessness in him, a recklessness that has cost us dearly. Bissouma also worries me. Yesterday, on four yellows he committed a totally unnecessary foul in the opposition half and received another caution and then smiles as he gets cautioned. I hope the smile was from embarrassment. I love his skill, but he makes so many silly challenges and needs to do much better.

I actually wonder if he smiled because he wanted to miss the Villa game and be back for the Chelsea game.

 

[Westmorlandspur]

We have GLC, Kulu, Bentancur, Donley. They might not be at Madison's level as a 10 but they aren't PEH.

I'm not asking for a complete change in tactics or a total revamp of the team selection. I'm saying there needs to be some compromises one way or another.

Drop me he lene 5-10 yards whilst we have such a slow back line.

Not expect them to pass out from the back under pressure every time leading to constantly turning over the ball in our own half.

It's like owning a Michelin star restaurant and when your head chef gets ill bringing in the guy from the dog and duck and expecting the same quality of food. Just tweak the menu to suit FFS. It doesn't have to be whole sale changes but as I've been saying all week those players selected Saturday just can't play that way and it really is as simple as that. Just depends how many points he's willing to sacrifice I guess.

Because of Romero, van de Ven and Udogie. It's not particularly unusual not to rotate much in this area. The former three are simply the better players and so they play when they are available.

The problem is that they are not just better players, they are miles ahead of the others. The drop off is ridiculous.
Wolves didn’t really put it over the top. They either ran through the midfield or put long diagonals to either wing.
we knew it was a gamble to go with 2 top centre backs and nothing much else and it has killed us with the two games coming up. Romero has let us down badly.

 

[bubble07]

Only red flag apart from being an aussie is this stubbornness to not make slight tactical adjustments. We don't even waste time late in games when leading. Even city kill time

 

[13VanDerBale13]

Hopefully he’s learnt his lessons from the last game, we simply cannot play like that vs Villa, or we’ll get embarrassed.

 

[Westmorlandspur]

Some moronic opposition fans saying we are making excuses after the Chelsea game........ no its not an "excuse" to have 7/8 first team starters unavailable. It's an injury and suspension led crisis - that very, very few teams ever have to deal with. Even Man City would struggle with that and they have the deepest squad depth in the Prem due to money and more importantly being able to offer Champions League football. Its not remotely realistic - or financially sensible - to sign 4 or 5 extra "top 6" level players to improve the squad and replace the remaining deadwood players we have, without offering them either 1st team football or rotation options in Europe - and anyone who thinks otherwise knows absolutely nothing about football.

I see the arguments made re playing some of the youngsters and I have sympathy for that view....but let's not pretend that that's the solution. We are still going to find it very tough until Xmas regardless. Hopefully Maddison is back by say mid/late December and Romero being back in 3 games time will help also. Big January needed with 2/3 players in early.

We do not have 8 first team starters out. Chelsea, Newcastle and Man U have as many, if not more, injuries.
United have had a full back 4 out injured. Suspensions are not injuries, just players being bloody stupid.
We had 4 starters out yesterday. We should be able to handle it , just that our reserves are nowhere the standard required, I don’t want to watch the next two games. But I will and hope for something.
my worry is that by the time we are back to full strength, Son, Bissouma and Sarr are off to international tournaments. Jan - Feb for a month.

 

[idontgetit]

There's so many things that can be said about yesterdays game but in the end in boils down to one thing. A total failure to sign a suitable back-up CB. Everything else in the squad gets easier if the CB's are quick enough to recover.

Without pacy CB's the fullbacks can't be confident to wander into spaces. You can't be as confident pressing high. You end up selecting more CM's rather than creative players. The whole system falls apart.

 

[spursfan77]

Doesn’t really matter what system you play them in, Dier, Davies, PEH etc will still all let us down.

Ange won’t change and so he shouldn’t. He’s building something just like Klopp and Pep did and they didn’t change they kept drilling the style of play into the squad and window by window got the improved players they needed to make it consistently effective.

If he plays Dier and we push up against Villa then I’m definitely putting Watkins in my fantasy team. He will score a hatful.

 

[Gilzeanking]

We have GLC, Kulu, Bentancur, Donley. They might not be at Madison's level as a 10 but they aren't PEH.

I'm not asking for a complete change in tactics or a total revamp of the team selection. I'm saying there needs to be some compromises one way or another.

Drop me he lene 5-10 yards whilst we have such a slow back line.

Not expect them to pass out from the back under pressure every time leading to constantly turning over the ball in our own half.

It's like owning a Michelin star restaurant and when your head chef gets ill bringing in the guy from the dog and duck and expecting the same quality of food. Just tweak the menu to suit FFS. It doesn't have to be whole sale changes but as I've been saying all week those players selected Saturday just can't play that way and it really is as simple as that. Just depends how many points he's willing to sacrifice I guess.

Absolutely. The strawman counter argument seems to be... no tweaks allowed, or Ange system is forever destroyed.

Common sense minor alterations eg as out lined above are fine . Ange is a good manager learning the Prem, he'll get even better I'm sure.

 

[Guernman]

I don't think Ange thinks his job is to win the next game in whatever way he can, he thinks his job is to bring success to the club over the next number of seasons.

He has been clear that he won't compromise in his approach, and he has been crystal clear that Dier and others have no long term place in his squad

The fact that Dier was one of the players who had to come in yesterday is on the club not Ange

Whether it was Poch, Jose, Conte or now Ange, the manager of Spurs is also in a constant game of brinkmanship with Levy and the board.

Like any chairman, Levy will want nothing more than a manager who will come in and work magic with the existing squad, all the players Levy sees as more valulable than the rest of the market does. A squad overhaul is the stuff of nightmares for him.

So there will be constant pressure on any manager to compromise - can't you adjust your approach just a little so that player X could be utilised, or I'm sure player Y could sort of do this job, not exactly what you want, but it could work...

The moment a manager gives in a little it becomes a sliding slope, and that's why successful managers come across as being ridiculously inflexible, especially to fans who will always want to win the game they are currently watching.

Of course, the money men are only one of the challenges facing Ange, the other is a group of players who have been so programmed to revert to negative football it is absolutely ingrained. Only a total commitment to the opposite approach will really change this, one little compromise and you undermine the whole philosophy.

If players know that you want to play high risk attacking football, unless you don't, sometimes, then they will always have that question in the back of their mind: is this one of those rare times when I shouldn't take this risk? Ange's whole philosophy is to remove that question - it is ALWAYS the high risk approach, there is no question mark, and when it goes wrong it's on me not the players.

Of course Ange could have done more pragmatically to win the game yesterday. A lower line would have suited the players available, working with what he had, and adjusting his appraoch to do so, would have made a lot of sense if his primary goal was to win the game.

But if Ange's primary goal is to get every player fully committed to his way of playing, and to get the board and levy fully aware that they either fire him or bring in the players with the attributes he requires to play his game, then he will accept these losses as necessary bumps in the road.

The real irony is that we lost yesterday not because we let in 2 goals - we were always going to be vunerable with that makeshift defence - it's because we weren't brave enough in our attack to score 3. Too many players reverted to the old ingrained patterns of looking sideways and backwards and that's what will frustrate Ange the most.