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Laying the foundations for success.

WhiteStripe

Get out of my club you cretin!
Aug 23, 2006
14,213
4,989
We clearly have a hugely talented set of players, and many would argue that our squad is as good as any in the league. Why then have we failed to push on again this year and challenge for the title? It’s not like United are out of reach, I mean replace the points thrown away vs Wolves, West Brom, Chelsea and Sunderland with wins and thats another 8 points there and then convert some of the chances we created against the likes of West Ham and Man City, and we really are sitting pretty in a comfortable 2nd place.

Instead we are languishing in 5th, clinging on to a fine thread of hope that West Ham will somehow find it in themselves to win away at City (something that hasn’t happened since 2003) and we will put our demons behind us to clinch a first victory at Stamford Bridge for since Gareth Bale dribbling onto his mothers shoulder, not down the wing. So what has gone wrong this year? Why have we been unable to push on and build on our first ever top 4 finish in the English Premier League?

I would hazard a guess you are there shouting at the screen “It’s obvious, we haven’t scored enough!”, or the more observant amongst you would utter “we haven’t converted enough of the chances we have created”. You may even be saying “Injuries have plagued us” or “fixture congestion has tired us out”. All very good points, and all very valid ones, however I believe that there is something more fundamental at the heart of our failings.

We have not kept a disciplined formation all season.

“Hold on” I hear you bellow, “we’ve pretty much played 4-4-1-1 all year haven’t we?” Well yes, in part we have, but it’s the defined roles of players playing in the formation and the tactics employed which we have failed to keep consistent. Far too often our issue has been our inability to keep the pressure off our back four, or more often than not our back 2. With attacking players in the team such as Van Der Vaart, Modric, Bale, Lennon, Defoe, Kranjcar (at times) we have not ensured, consistently enough, that we balance out that flair. In short, we have failed to lay the defensive foundations properly before building the attack.

There are a number of simple basic principles we too often forget when trying to play with the attacking flair we try to;

Protect the back four with discipline. When the flair players commit themselves, there should always be a player holding his position in the middle of the park, sweeping up the midfield. It’s what Palacios was brought in for, and it’s what Sandro has started to show. The discipline of this role needs to be coached into the player. This discipline should ALWAYS come first.

Defending doesn’t start in our own penalty area. Far too often we are happy to let the CB’s do the defending, when in reality, when playing football, one of the first things we are told is that “attack is the first line of defence”. The more pressure we are putting on the opposition, the less pressure they are putting on us. Redknapp was quoted, after playing Barcelona in the Wembley Cup as saying that the evident difference between Barca and most teams is the workrate all over the park. The closing down and putting pressure on the man in possession all over the pitch is key in the way they play.​

If we want to dominate games we need to remember these two key principles, because no matter what other problems we have, if we cannot win the midfield battles in our matches, then we cannot compete at the level we want to. If we want to get the results we think we should be getting, regardless of who plays up front or at the back, we need to drill the following into our players of the training pitch.

High and Early pressure
Our attacking players need to keep pressure on the opposition, closing down the space and making it difficult for sustained possession on the ball. This will help us to see more of the ball, and prevent the opposition building moves from the back.

Discipline in the Middle
We must always play with a Centre midfielder who is disciplined enough to sweep up the midfield. Nullifying the threat of a breakaway and allowing our centre backs cover. We cannot afford to sacrifice this role as without it, we will be cut open like a knife through butter.

Constant Movement
Not only when in possession, but when defending, movement is essential. Whether it be out midfield always giving the man in possession an option for a pass, or our players tracking runs of the opposition and closing down the space when defending, movement is key. One thing I will say about Ramos, is it was evident when he arrived that a large part of his game revolved around core fitness and pressing the opposition. It was him that started getting Lennon to track back, and we need these ethics instilled in our players once more. Too much this year we have been caught out by giving the ball away cheaply with no easy ball available, and being caught napping when not tracking opponents movement.​

Regardless of who you have in your team, from the top to the bottom of the EPL, without laying the foundation stones to success, you will not succeed. Not every player can pass the ball 60 yards onto a 10p piece or waltz past an opposing defender as if they were not there, but every single player can work hard to keep their discipline in a game.

This season, it’s not just the chances we have failed to finish, or the injuries that we have picked up that have cost us, it is the lack of discipline when laying the foundation stones for success, something we must address to succeed.
 

Stavrogin

Well-Known Member
Apr 17, 2004
2,364
1,478
It's a nice post but shouldn't you be laying this on as a seminar for premier league managers?

And I can't helping sensing an error behind this, one that's more and prevalent across the board. You seem to want perfection and think it's possible with tactics or effort. It just doesn't work like that. Players aren't machines and the opposition is not some static unchanging problem to overcome.

You're points are all good but there have been times when we've done some of them and failed whilst at other times we've done the opposite and suceeded.

I would offer up this GUARANTEED SUPER TIP FOR THE TOP - It's the tactic that will win you championships and all the big cups all up all nice!

It's so simple it was discovered by a housewife from Oregon - it's the tip Arsene Wenger DOESN'T want you to know!

Have more men around the ball than the opposition. How you do it is up to you but if you pull it off things'll work out fine.
 

WhiteStripe

Get out of my club you cretin!
Aug 23, 2006
14,213
4,989
It's a nice post but shouldn't you be laying this on as a seminar for premier league managers?

And I can't helping sensing an error behind this, one that's more and prevalent across the board. You seem to want perfection and think it's possible with tactics or effort. It just doesn't work like that. Players aren't machines and the opposition is not some static unchanging problem to overcome.

You're points are all good but there have been times when we've done some of them and failed whilst at other times we've done the opposite and suceeded.

I would offer up this GUARANTEED SUPER TIP FOR THE TOP - It's the tactic that will win you championships and all the big cups all up all nice!

It's so simple it was discovered by a housewife from Oregon - it's the tip Arsene Wenger DOESN'T want you to know!

Have more men around the ball than the opposition. How you do it is up to you but if you pull it off things'll work out fine.

Yes, this could be sold as a formula for success to EPL managers, in the way a "how to make millions from the comfort of your own home" is sold to countless buffoons worldwide for the princely sum of £29.99. That was not, however how it was intended, and if it has been written that poorly, I apologise.

I feel that in games this season, we have been far too open, far too slow to react to threats, and far too undisciplined in our defensive responsibilities.

Why can't we try and coach these key principles into the core of our team? The best team in the world have managed it (Barca). The best tactician in the world manages it (Mourhino). So why can't we? Why can't we ensure that regardless of who we play, and what players we have on the pitch, that an overall ethos, and foundation to our game is in place that whilst not always successful, breeds consistency that can opitomise our teams gameplay for years to come?
 

BringBack_leGin

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2004
27,719
54,929
I enjoyed the read. Everything you talk about, though logical, remains subjective until the team actually implements it and we see whether it works or not of course, but nonetheless it was worth being written and is interesting to think about.
 

StartingPrice

Chief Sardonicus Hyperlip
Feb 13, 2004
32,568
10,280
Sowing the seeds...
Sowing the seeds...of LOVE:dance:

Sometimes you have to look at these things with perspective. How long did Red Nose have a very exciting young squad...who won some fantastic games, but also lost some really :doh:games...before having their "you'll win nothing with kids" year:shrug:

IMHO, if we can keep this squad together, selling off those we wish to sell to free up funds, and adding some necessary compnents, we really could be nearly their.

I want CL football next year, and don't accept that we are out of the race for it yet. But I do agree with those who think that if we fail to get it and either don't get Europa or don't use our first team in it, whilst keeping our squad together and adding to it in strategic areas, we really could make a push for top honours next season.
 

dimiSpur

There's always next year...
Aug 9, 2008
5,844
6,751
I think Steve's done a course on how to use bolded titles correctly, and showing off his skills in Spurs Chat
 

WhiteStripe

Get out of my club you cretin!
Aug 23, 2006
14,213
4,989
Just look at how Mourinho has pushed Pepe into a DM role for El Clasico the last 2 games (and tonight). Trying to eliminate the openness they showed in the first encounter.
 

Ribble

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2011
3,522
4,803
Yes, this could be sold as a formula for success to EPL managers, in the way a "how to make millions from the comfort of your own home" is sold to countless buffoons worldwide for the princely sum of £29.99. That was not, however how it was intended, and if it has been written that poorly, I apologise.

I feel that in games this season, we have been far too open, far too slow to react to threats, and far too undisciplined in our defensive responsibilities.

Why can't we try and coach these key principles into the core of our team? The best team in the world have managed it (Barca). The best tactician in the world manages it (Mourhino). So why can't we? Why can't we ensure that regardless of who we play, and what players we have on the pitch, that an overall ethos, and foundation to our game is in place that whilst not always successful, breeds consistency that can opitomise our teams gameplay for years to come?

I don't think you've written them badly at all. These things aren't some unachievable dream in the slightest, the fact that we don't do fundamental things like press properly or defend as a unit effectively should be of massive concern rather than dismissed as some kind of "miracle" fix.
 

BringBack_leGin

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2004
27,719
54,929
Just look at how Mourinho has pushed Pepe into a DM role for El Clasico the last 2 games (and tonight). Trying to eliminate the openness they showed in the first encounter.

I would never want us to try and play anybody by utilising 2 dms and a cb as our midfield who's instruction was merely to kick the opposition. Even through the red was harsh for the incident, it was thoroughly deserved for the mindset and approach of Pepe and Madrid, and tonight football won.
 

WhiteStripe

Get out of my club you cretin!
Aug 23, 2006
14,213
4,989
I would never want us to try and play anybody by utilising 2 dms and a cb as our midfield who's instruction was merely to kick the opposition. Even through the red was harsh for the incident, it was thoroughly deserved for the mindset and approach of Pepe and Madrid, and tonight football won.

Barca played shitty dirty tactics. One player won, Leo Messi. Mourinho prepared his team to beat the best team to ever play the game in the best way he could, by employing a player to stifle their biggest threat. Messi was marked out of the game for large parts, and when he had to lay the ball off, the Madrid players hunted in packs. They were incredibly well prepared and tactially switched on.

The only player to be red carded that would have any real impact on what Madrid set out to do was the one sent off (harshly). Whatever you say about Jose, his tactics today were spot on. Take the tie to a second leg by at the very least not conceding an away goal.

No this didn't come off, and yes they now look dead and buried, but it very nearly worked.
 

BringBack_leGin

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2004
27,719
54,929
I would not clap a side who lined up to just kick the opposition, who employed not one imaginative midfielder. Mourinho tonight was George Graham x 10. His tactics clearly didn't work because at no point, as the home side, did they look like winning. In a two legged tie it's kind of important. Pepe was harshly carded, but they could've had sendings off before then anyway.

It was an equivalent front 6 to us playing Hudd, Palacios, Kaboul in midfield and Bale, VDV and Modric up front. Could you be happy with this under any circumstances, especially at home, regardless of opposition? I couldn't, especially with a clear remit of 'hack first, pass later'.
 

WhiteStripe

Get out of my club you cretin!
Aug 23, 2006
14,213
4,989
I would not clap a side who lined up to just kick the opposition, who employed not one imaginative midfielder. Mourinho tonight was George Graham x 10. His tactics clearly didn't work because at no point, as the home side, did they look like winning. In a two legged tie it's kind of important. Pepe was harshly carded, but they could've had sendings off before then anyway.

It was an equivalent front 6 to us playing Hudd, Palacios, Kaboul in midfield and Bale, VDV and Modric up front. Could you be happy with this under any circumstances, especially at home, regardless of opposition? I couldn't, especially with a clear remit of 'hack first, pass later'.

Yes I could, were it against Barca, who under most other circumstances are unstoppable. Mourinho quite rightly had his biggest priority as not conceding an away goal to force it into a 1 legged tie with the odds stacked in his favour (ie the oppertunity to win on away goals). Not every game of football has to be beautiful. Winning trophies isn't always about playing the best football every single game. Tonight, Jose wanted to keep a clean sheet.
 

Partizan

Well-Known Member
Aug 3, 2005
6,573
3,406
I would not clap a side who lined up to just kick the opposition, who employed not one imaginative midfielder. Mourinho tonight was George Graham x 10. His tactics clearly didn't work because at no point, as the home side, did they look like winning. In a two legged tie it's kind of important. Pepe was harshly carded, but they could've had sendings off before then anyway.

It was an equivalent front 6 to us playing Hudd, Palacios, Kaboul in midfield and Bale, VDV and Modric up front. Could you be happy with this under any circumstances, especially at home, regardless of opposition? I couldn't, especially with a clear remit of 'hack first, pass later'.

If it was a one off against a clearly better side in a crucial encounter, I couldn't give a flying fuck if it meant we won
 

BringBack_leGin

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2004
27,719
54,929
You can be defensive without trying physically harm your opponent with repeat assault. And they'd have been better defensively if one of their midfielders was able to play a pass to ozil, Ronnie or di Maria so that the ball didn't come back to their defence every time. Kaka instead of the redundant Diarra for instance. 3 dms was overkill, counter productive and meant that the second Madrid threatened to get out of their own half they lost the ball easily. Did Ozil touch the ball even ten times? A shame for such a wonderful player. Maybe pur him in the middle instead of Diarra, adebayor up front. Mourinho was too negative, too cynical and got exactly what he deserved.
 

Lilbaz

Just call me Baz
Apr 1, 2005
41,363
74,893
I think it's cause Ray Wilkins left... oh wrong team.

IF we had won all our games we'd be top of the league. IF we'd lost all our games we'd be bottom of the league. IF my mother had never met my father I'd never been born. Lot of If's there. We've had a decent season, not as good as it could have been but not as bad as it has been. We need to concentrate on moving forward, getting rid of our fringe players and bringing in some quality that will improve us enough so that next season we can have a real push for the title or failing that getting back into the CL.
 

elDiablo

SC Supporter
Feb 2, 2005
4,579
2,950
nice post.

What amazes me about top teams, is how they can attack, and play in the opposition half with fewer players in support. Barca will attack with Messi, and he will have two cms and a back 4 infront of him, but real madrid cannot get the ball. Messi retains it, and lays off to a supporting midfielder or wide man.

Unfortunately, i have noticed that Arsenal can play in a similar way: rarely give the ball away cheaply, and usually only through the final ball breaking down.

So i suppose, what our team is in desperate need of is composure. We massively lack it, and this would extend to why we dont put away the chances created. Some players will gain composure (Bale, Lennon maybe Modric) but some players will never gain composure (Defoe, Jenas, and Pav to an extent). Part of it will come with experience, but i hope the striker we buy is composure personified in front of goal 'cos im sure he will get plenty of chances.
 

TwoSaintsComeMarching

PIMP-tastic
Jul 26, 2008
2,404
454
Top post.

For me I think a very important part of the puzzle that's been missing from our game is attacking fullbacks and a solid central midfield. If you look at every single one of the top teams in world football, each utilize attacking fullbacks and two disciplined CMs who sweep up any counter attacking play.

We dont have attacking fullbacks and this makes our play somewhat one dimensional and predictable. Far too often we have played with two wingers who are very much 'get to the byline and whip in a cross' players. No over lapping runs and a complete lack of movement from our inept strikers making it far too easy for the opposition to deal with this one dimensional threat.

With attacking fullbacks and a more defensive center, and immediately you see better movement fucking with the opposition. With a creative player playing wider, with license to roam and come inside, the opposition defenders are sucked in, leaving space for the fullback to expose.

For me our formation needs to look something like this:

GK
FB CB CB AFB
DM CM
RW SS AM
S​

The midfield for me has to consist of one winger (RW), one attacking midfield playmaker (AM), one box-to-box pressing midfielder (CM), and one defensive midfield 'sweeper' (DM). There should then be two fullbacks who get forward, one more attacking than the other (depending on which side has the out-and-out winger).

The AM doesnt play like a winger. He has license to roam and float inside. The majority of his time is spent not worrying about defending in the middle of the park, but recieving the ball wide and then cutting inside and creating in the final third. Meanwhile the defenders that are dragged inside by the AM leave a space in behind for the AFB to expose.

What's incredibly frustating for me is that we have the players to utilise this system perfectly.

It would look like this:

Gomes
Corluka Dawson Kaboul Bale
Sandro Palacios/Hudd
Lennon VDV Modric
Striker
We played this midfield system for the majority of last season, with Lennon/Bentley as the sole winger, Modric/Kranjcar as the wide playmakers and Palacios and Hudd as the solid center.

Shame the naysayers are so hellbent on keeping Bale as a winger and Modric in the center. It doesnt work. Bale has been below par and always gets crouded out, and Modric, although has his moments of brilliance, he is burdened with too much tracking back and defending for my liking.

What could have been.
 

WhiteStripe

Get out of my club you cretin!
Aug 23, 2006
14,213
4,989
Top post.

For me I think a very important part of the puzzle that's been missing from our game is attacking fullbacks and a solid central midfield. If you look at every single one of the top teams in world football, each utilize attacking fullbacks and two disciplined CMs who sweep up any counter attacking play.

We dont have attacking fullbacks and this makes our play somewhat one dimensional and predictable. Far too often we have played with two wingers who are very much 'get to the byline and whip in a cross' players. No over lapping runs and a complete lack of movement from our inept strikers making it far too easy for the opposition to deal with this one dimensional threat.

With attacking fullbacks and a more defensive center, and immediately you see better movement fucking with the opposition. With a creative player playing wider, with license to roam and come inside, the opposition defenders are sucked in, leaving space for the fullback to expose.

For me our formation needs to look something like this:

GK
FB CB CB AFB
DM CM
RW SS AM
S​

The midfield for me has to consist of one winger (RW), one attacking midfield playmaker (AM), one box-to-box pressing midfielder (CM), and one defensive midfield 'sweeper' (DM). There should then be two fullbacks who get forward, one more attacking than the other (depending on which side has the out-and-out winger).

The AM doesnt play like a winger. He has license to roam and float inside. The majority of his time is spent not worrying about defending in the middle of the park, but recieving the ball wide and then cutting inside and creating in the final third. Meanwhile the defenders that are dragged inside by the AM leave a space in behind for the AFB to expose.

What's incredibly frustating for me is that we have the players to utilise this system perfectly.

It would look like this:

Gomes
Corluka Dawson Kaboul Bale
Sandro Palacios/Hudd
Lennon VDV Modric
Striker
We played this midfield system for the majority of last season, with Lennon/Bentley as the sole winger, Modric/Kranjcar as the wide playmakers and Palacios and Hudd as the solid center.

Shame the naysayers are so hellbent on keeping Bale as a winger and Modric in the center. It doesnt work. Bale has been below par and always gets crouded out, and Modric, although has his moments of brilliance, he is burdened with too much tracking back and defending for my liking.

What could have been.

Super post.
 

felmani26

SC Supporter
Jan 1, 2008
24,624
43,614
Top post.

For me I think a very important part of the puzzle that's been missing from our game is attacking fullbacks and a solid central midfield. If you look at every single one of the top teams in world football, each utilize attacking fullbacks and two disciplined CMs who sweep up any counter attacking play.

We dont have attacking fullbacks and this makes our play somewhat one dimensional and predictable. Far too often we have played with two wingers who are very much 'get to the byline and whip in a cross' players. No over lapping runs and a complete lack of movement from our inept strikers making it far too easy for the opposition to deal with this one dimensional threat.

With attacking fullbacks and a more defensive center, and immediately you see better movement fucking with the opposition. With a creative player playing wider, with license to roam and come inside, the opposition defenders are sucked in, leaving space for the fullback to expose.

For me our formation needs to look something like this:

GK
FB CB CB AFB
DM CM
RW SS AM
S​

The midfield for me has to consist of one winger (RW), one attacking midfield playmaker (AM), one box-to-box pressing midfielder (CM), and one defensive midfield 'sweeper' (DM). There should then be two fullbacks who get forward, one more attacking than the other (depending on which side has the out-and-out winger).

The AM doesnt play like a winger. He has license to roam and float inside. The majority of his time is spent not worrying about defending in the middle of the park, but recieving the ball wide and then cutting inside and creating in the final third. Meanwhile the defenders that are dragged inside by the AM leave a space in behind for the AFB to expose.

What's incredibly frustating for me is that we have the players to utilise this system perfectly.

It would look like this:

Gomes
Corluka Dawson Kaboul Bale
Sandro Palacios/Hudd
Lennon VDV Modric
Striker
We played this midfield system for the majority of last season, with Lennon/Bentley as the sole winger, Modric/Kranjcar as the wide playmakers and Palacios and Hudd as the solid center.

Shame the naysayers are so hellbent on keeping Bale as a winger and Modric in the center. It doesnt work. Bale has been below par and always gets crouded out, and Modric, although has his moments of brilliance, he is burdened with too much tracking back and defending for my liking.

What could have been.

You know we agree on many similar aspects, most notably in how to deploy Bale with a Modric cutting in from the left hand side.

My main concern though is this sole striker business - I still feel it's too much of a specialist position in which the qualities needed in that player to maximise that particular system are not readily available within our financial constraints.

It's almost impossible to clearly identify a realistic target who could fulfil this role and represents a definite upgrade on what we have already. This is why I always prefer a striking duo as it's easier to identify traits in each one and utilise both their strengths to give us the all round qualities in the forward position and it's also a lot harder for oppositions to defend against.

It's a real bone of contention and will have to be addressed head on in the Summer, no doubt about it.
 

TwoSaintsComeMarching

PIMP-tastic
Jul 26, 2008
2,404
454
You know we agree on many similar aspects, most notably in how to deploy Bale with a Modric cutting in from the left hand side.

My main concern though is this sole striker business - I still feel it's too much of a specialist position in which the qualities needed in that player to maximise that particular system are not readily available within our financial constraints.

It's almost impossible to clearly identify a realistic target who could fulfil this role and represents a definite upgrade on what we have already. This is why I always prefer a striking duo as it's easier to identify traits in each one and utilise both their strengths to give us the all round qualities in the forward position and it's also a lot harder for oppositions to defend against.

It's a real bone of contention and will have to be addressed head on in the Summer, no doubt about it.

I used to think this too, but I dont necessarily agree anymore. You only have to see United play with Rooney and Hernandez to see that you dont necessarily need a Drogba style striker upfront if you play it on the deck.

This season Rooney has played very much like a support striker, much the same way as VDV. Both have been dropping very deep and linking up play. Hernandez is a poacher and his partnership with Rooney is proof that you dont need a big lad upfront.

IMO you need someone who can make runs and stretch the defence. But crucial to this is again attacking fullbacks. When you have width coming from deep, with creative players coming off the wings, it gives all the defenders too much on their hands to handle. It's all about the movement.
 
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