Jose Mourinho

[Styopa]

I honestly can't remember any manager with Mourinho's record at the club, being given the benefit of the doubt by so many people. I think it's unprecedented in my time as Spurs fan.

Having guided us to 6th last season and taking us as far as Leipizig and Norwich in the cup competitions, we currently sit in 8th place having been beaten by nearly every team in the top half of the table over the last three or four months. We are also yet to beat a top ten Premier League team (or their equivalent) in any cup competition in normal time this season. Of the two we have faced we have a 50% progression rate after normal time.

I just don't think many, possibly any, other manager would be defended as rigorously as Mourinho has based on the above. Especially in view of some of the terrible football we have played. I suppose the closest would be AVB where some people were desperate for things to work out under him, as in work out under him specifically. Most other managers, Sherwood, Redknapp would no way have been afforded the same benefit of the doubt. For instance I can't imagine anyone blaming the players for the terrible performances under Sherwood?

It just feels like some people are allowing their view of Mourinho the man colour their view of his record at the club.

 

[doctor stefan Freud]

Irrespective of what anyone thinks, and I’ve decided recently he needs to go, I’m going to put my freakishly large left testicle on the line here and say there’s no way he’s here at the beginning of next season. He absolutely has to secure CL football to retain his job, and that opportunity diminishes with every insipid performance. We might brush past Dinamo Zagreb this week, but once we play a technically decent, progressive team, we’ll retreat into our shell and get dumped out fairly easily

 

[nico97531]

The odd observation here, is the one you chose, probably by reading too quickly, to make about my post.
What I was writing about, factually, is that I'm questioning that one factually can describe our squad as lacking in desire. One may retain the rights, if one so wishes, to be of the opinion that our squad as a leading trait is without desire. To take such a personal observation, calling it facts, and then banning all other responses from the thread if they are not equally factual, that is what I'm countering. Because IMO the squad factually proved that they have desire in abundance when they scored 16 goals over 4 matches vs, various opponents that on the day could have been defeated with one quarter* of the effort.

*one quarter is not a fact, just to be clear, it's just my way of making an obvious point in support of my fact driven opinions.

The thing about facts, is that nobody owns the right to define what facts are based on their own opinions and subsequent confirmation bias, or to ban other's opinions.

Where do I start, the team had also factually folded when ever they were facing a challenge, showing desire and fight is doing the hard work and over coming a worthy challenge. it’s shown time and time again when the going gets tough the team just folded and rolled over, That is a fact as shown by the multiple points we lost when we caved in while on top, and the constant losses facing decent opposition. So if you are going to say your basing your argument with fact then you should probably look at the whole picture and not pick and choose what fits your argument

 

[Metalhead]

You're point was that the cultural problem doesn't have a genuine effect, but if you've changed it now to one about our problems only solvable through massive investment then I partially agree. That is one way to get us over the line - though Liverpool have been throwing that kind of money around for the 30 years it took them to finally win another league title so I think your simplification is way off.

It wasn't that they had the money to spend on a centre-back, it was that the entire club had been realigned with an ambitious new owner with an understanding of how to run a succesful sporting 'franchise'. Their next move will be interesting now that it appears a cycle has come to an end. We've spent £70m on a single player too, but it doesn't seem to have got us anywhere.

You rightly pointed out that our average position is 6th, that we are the 6th best team in England - and that the teams above us have greater resources. You didn't say what you thought we should do about it, if anything - do we accept that or do we try to change it? What can we do about it? Pochettino talked about 'changing the narrative' so he understood part of the problem. There are other clubs in a similar place to us - Everton for example - but the narrative around them isn't as toxic for some reason.

The infrastructure investment, the marketing, all the back office stuff is obviously to try to grow our resources and stature but we still have the culture issue - as did Man City, as did Liverpool to a lesser extent. I understand you never wanted Mourinho from the start, but if there was a manager who might be able to drag us kicking and screaming over the line he wasn't a bad shout. It isn't working out, though I will still wait until the season is over to judge him fully (fat lot of difference it makes either way) - what's next?

Personally, I think all your clever arguments are wasted on the wrong end of the horse. Pretending that it's all Mourinho's fault and that a new manager will solve it just isn't going to work in my opinion, we need more change than that.

Though I am looking forward to a new man coming in so the battle lines can be re-drawn and we can all swap arguments. Will it be 'English-coach vs Fancy-foreigner'? 'Experienced-man vs Fresh-ideas'? Perhaps I'll join the 'didn't want him from the start' crew this time, just for the lols. Whoever it is, we'll be doing this over and over and over again until we change the things that can really make a difference.

If he does go at the end of the season then hopefully people will get behind whoever it is, regardless of who they wanted. It's been unpleasant having such divisiveness - there's plenty of that in other parts of our lives. This is supposed to be a kind of escapism.

 

[Shadydan]

I honestly can't remember any manager with Mourinho's record at the club, being given the benefit of the doubt by so many people. I think it's unprecedented in my time as Spurs fan.

Having guided us to 6th last season and taking us as far as Leipizig and Norwich in the cup competitions, we currently sit in 8th place having been beaten by nearly every team in the top half of the table over the last three or four months. We are also yet to beat a top ten Premier League team (or their equivalent) in any cup competition in normal time this season. Of the two we have faced we have a 50% progression rate after normal time.

I just don't think many, possibly any, other managers would be defended as rigorously as Mourinho has based on the above. Especially in view of some of the terrible football we have played. I suppose the closest would be AVB where some people were desperate for things to work out under him, as in work out under him specifically. Most other managers, Sherwood, Redknapp would no way have been afforded the same benefit of the doubt. For instance I can't imagine anyone blaming all the terrible performances under Sherwood on the players?

I think the picture would be a bit more clearer and things would be different if we weren't in the cup final and virtually in the quarters of the EL. Seems like that's giving him a bit of breathing space and is probably why some people would rather wait until they scream Jose out.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Irrespective of what anyone thinks, and I’ve decided recently he needs to go, I’m going to put my freakishly large left testicle on the line here and say there’s no way he’s here at the beginning of next season. He absolutely has to secure CL football to retain his job, and that opportunity diminishes with every insipid performance. We might brush past Dinamo Zagreb this week, but once we play a technically decent, progressive team, we’ll retreat into our shell and get dumped out fairly easily

In make you right. The only thing that might save him is that with our run in, there’s only one match where I think he’ll go handbrake on (which will then result in a defeat) but the rest of the fixtures he might feel comfortable with us trying to attack, and with Kane, Bale and hopefully Son having shown what they can do in those circumstances, it’s not behind the realms of possibility that we’ll win the other 8.

 

[spurs mental]

I just don't think many, possibly any, other managers would be defended as rigorously as Mourinho has

Poch was defended similarly, if not more than Jose, IIRC.

People will say he had earned it but he fucked everything he worked for the night before the CL. He just came across nicer than Jose.

 

[rossdapep]

With all respect to Ali Gold, a reporter I enjoy, I can't say I agree with the notion that his analysis of what happens in a football match should ever be taken as gospel.

As I've said in another thread, I think the main problem with this team is that we're collectively terrible at playing out from the back. Often, Ndombele will solve it by himself, but when he's as off song as he was vs. Arsenal, our weakness in that department is clear for all to see, and we're reduced to going for more direct passes, which have a higher risk of failing. It's what every pressing side wants.

That we're so easily pressed also affects our pressing game, since we're either trapped in our own half, and so often in transition that our team is rarely "set" to get a press going.

And when we're so unsure of how to get the ball up the pitch and end up giving it away time and time again, the opponents grow in confidence and we're getting caught in a vicious circle.

Being unsure and not confident in how to deal with an opponent will often look like lack of "passion" and "mentality". I think the main problem is that we're undercoached both when it comes to build up play. It's not long ago Fulham (also a decent pressing side) had us pinned in our own box for the best part of the second half with us ill equipped to get out.

Yeah, that's fair. It's up to the coach to give them a way of playing through these situations and Jose quite clearly is struggling to get them to do it.

 

[nico97531]

Set up is part of tactics and it cost us big time v Arsenal. He set up with Hojbjerg (knackered) and Ndombele in CM and Arsenal were all over us. We couldn't get a foothold in the game and were chasing shadows. There was also a huge gap down our right flank which gave Arsenal chance after chance to get at us, but Mourinho did fuck all about it. Then, when Ndombele ran out of gas, he sends on Sissoko to try to rescue the game. We lost the game through being outnumbered, outfought and outplayed in midfield which is down to tactics and setup. It's the same game after game and I can't remember the last time we won a second ball.

There’s nothing wrong with saying the tactics of the day just didn’t work, what I have a problem with is people banging on about the team is set up in a negative way that is the cause of all our problems when there are players coming out saying the opposite, they were tasked to press from the front and was consistently instructed not to drop off but all these facts are simply ignored.

 

[Styopa]

I think the picture would be a bit more clearer and things would be different if we weren't in the cup final and virtually in the quarters of the EL. Seems like that's giving him a bit of breathing space and is probably why some people would rather wait until they scream Jose out.

That's fair enough. I too think he should be given to the end of the season.

 

[nico97531]

Set up is part of tactics and it cost us big time v Arsenal. He set up with Hojbjerg (knackered) and Ndombele in CM and Arsenal were all over us. We couldn't get a foothold in the game and were chasing shadows. There was also a huge gap down our right flank which gave Arsenal chance after chance to get at us, but Mourinho did fuck all about it. Then, when Ndombele ran out of gas, he sends on Sissoko to try to rescue the game. We lost the game through being outnumbered, outfought and outplayed in midfield which is down to tactics and setup. It's the same game after game and I can't remember the last time we won a second ball.

There’s nothing wrong with saying the tactics of the day just didn’t work, what I have a problem with is people banging on about the team is set up in a negative way that is the cause of all our problems when there are players coming out saying the opposite, they were tasked to press from the front and was consistently instructed not to drop off but all these facts are simply ignored.

 

[Japhet]

There’s nothing wrong with saying the tactics of the day just didn’t work, what I have a problem with is people banging on about the team is set up in a negative way that is the cause of all our problems when there are players coming out saying the opposite, they were tasked to press from the front and was consistently instructed not to drop off but all these facts are simply ignored.

That's all well and good, but when you're getting stuffed in midfield it's impossible to press from the front. You can only do that from a solid base, not when the opposition are continually getting behind you.

 

[Styopa]

Poch was defended similarly, if not more than Jose, IIRC.

People will say he had earned it but he fucked everything he worked for the night before the CL. He just came across nicer than Jose.

Nonsense. Poch absolutely earned it.

And you'll find a lot of us here who have been critical of Mourinho's performance as manager of the club actually like Mourinho the man. I've said it many times, he's a great personality, charismatic, charming and does a great interview. It's just a shame that personality doesn't seem to translate onto the pitch.

 

[Shadydan]

That's fair enough. I too think he should be given to the end of the season.

This is where I am, I made peace with the fact that he's going to see out the end of the season a long time unless we are in really bad form or he has lost the players.

That said I'm not as happy with him as I was last week I'll tell that that.

 

[doctor stefan Freud]

In make you right. The only thing that might save him is that with our run in, there’s only one match where I think he’ll go handbrake on (which will then result in a defeat) but the rest of the fixtures he might feel comfortable with us trying to attack, and with Kane, Bale and hopefully Son having shown what they can do in those circumstances, it’s not behind the realms of possibility that we’ll win the other 8.

Yes, I’d agree with that to an extent but we’d also be dependent on other results going our way. I can’t see Chelsea and Leicester ballsing it up enough to not make the top 4. But equally, being a long suffering Tottenham supporter, I also know we’re more than capable of shooting ourselves in the foot without relying on other teams taking care of their business

 

[Betha]

Mourinho said it. Kane said it. Lloris said it. Poch said it. These players or atleast the core group that’s been around a few seasons take their foot off the gas all on their own accord, but most of the fans would disagree and throw the blame at Mourinho. Or blame the tactics. But Unfortunately this is a reality we have to accept. These players just don’t want it bad enough. Especially in the big games. I mean anyone with ears could hear Sacra and Jose screaming press and up every single game but no one wants to admit or discuss that.

Which players, who are part of the core group, and do regularly play, do take their foot of the gas? I'm struggling to actually see who these players are.

Definately not:
Kane
Son
Lamela (if he qualifies as a core member)
Sissoko (limited, but definately no lack of effort).

Haven't really played enough:
Winks
Alli

That leaves:
Aurier?
Davies - But, is it really effort or qualitiy?
Lucas - again, effort or quality?
Dier
Alderweireld
Sanchez

 

[spurs mental]

This is where I am, I made peace with the fact that he's going to see out the end of the season a long time unless we are in really bad form or he has lost the players.

That said I'm not as happy with him as I was last week I'll tell that that.

I think this is where plenty of us who are seen to be the great defenders are.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

Poch was defended similarly, if not more than Jose, IIRC.

People will say he had earned it but he fucked everything he worked for the night before the CL. He just came across nicer than Jose.

Massively ott there SM. It’s not because he came across as nice. It’s because he gave us the best football, and the best league performance, we’ve ever known in the premier league. Lack of trophies sucks but he had more than earned the goodwill he received and I’m saying that as someone who agreed it was time for him to go.

4 consecutive top 4 finishes, two seasons where the football was irrepressible at times, and the evolution of the club from being ok to actually very good, that is why he deserves slack v Jose, even without the trophies.

If Jose wins us the league cup it’ll be nice, but unless he follows that up with either top four or EL success then it won’t be enough to justify a lot of what we’ve sat through. Wasn’t enough when Graham won the league cup either.

If we end the season without champions league qualification he has to go, as it would mean that we’ve put up with this horrible football for almost no reason.

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

I honestly can't remember any manager with Mourinho's record at the club, being given the benefit of the doubt by so many people. I think it's unprecedented in my time as Spurs fan.

Having guided us to 6th last season and taking us as far as Leipizig and Norwich in the cup competitions, we currently sit in 8th place having been beaten by nearly every team in the top half of the table over the last three or four months. We are also yet to beat a top ten Premier League team (or their equivalent) in any cup competition in normal time this season. Of the two we have faced we have a 50% progression rate after normal time.

I just don't think many, possibly any, other managers would be defended as rigorously as Mourinho has based on the above. Especially in view of some of the terrible football we have played. I suppose the closest would be AVB where some people were desperate for things to work out under him, as in work out under him specifically. Most other managers, Sherwood, Redknapp would no way have been afforded the same benefit of the doubt. For instance I can't imagine anyone blaming the players for the terrible performances under Sherwood?

I am speaking entirely from my own point of view here. And this will have nothing to do with the players and how I feel about them.

We have never had such a successful, world class manager at the helm. We haven't even won as many trophies as a club as he has. He is literally above our entire football club in terms of actual success and trophies. Regardless of how he got there, its a fact. His personal trophy cabinet is bigger than ours.

AVB, Sherwood and Harry combined have how many trophies to their name? They didn't have the past stature or success to fall back on. Jose does, so I give him that benefit of the doubt. I really think that given enough time, and a couple additions with a few departures, and we will be looking at a really strong team which will fight on all fronts. Optimistic I know, but this is how I feel.

I know his record with us so far isn't anything great, but there are good signs if you look for them. That we could possibly be very good under him. One more season is what I'd give him. Based on his previous tenures and success alone.

 

[H-SF]

I don’t know why Mourinho and Sacramento shouting ‘press’ all game is a good thing anyway. If anything it highlights that there is no properly implemented and structural press that has been worked on in training. And so what if the players drop back into a deep block due to their ‘mentality’. It’s the job of the coach to create framework for players in game. If the players are dropping off against Mourinho’s wishes it only highlights coaching flaws.