Jose Mourinho

[dontcallme]

I was livid yesterday and post Jose out for the first time.
Having finally calmed down I'm now wondering if we should be a bit patient, not because of any green shoots I see, I dont, or I think he can turn it around because at present, I dont.
However lets think about where we were 6mths ago regarding other managers.
Klopp, genius. Now he's lost it.
OGS, idiot. Now they sit 2nd in the league.
Arteta, laughing our arses off. Now they're close to overtaking us and he's turned it around.
Moyes, laughing our arses off at him. 'Here to win games' we laughed. We're not laughing now.
Even Pep was sitting way down the league a few months back and there were murmers he should go, now theyre comfortably top of the table.
The point is sometimes despite what a shitshow the club is in or how clueless a manager may look sometimes its worth holdding in there.
I dont like Jose. To be honest I despise the bloke. But he is a serial winner and has never failed to bring silverware whereever he's been so was it all just luck and money? I dont believe that, as much as I'd like to.
So maybe we should just hold on for a few weeks and see what happens?
Also every club is dropping points so 4 wins on the bounce and you fly up the table.
Even if this season is a write off could you hold on and see if next season brought success?
I'm gonna stay the execution for now.
COYS

I am really up and down about it. I was in favour of hiring Jose but don't feel I need to stick by him as I am never completely confident in my manager appointment choices.

We did need a bit of a rebuild after a period of no signings and you don't address all your issues within a couple of windows.

At the moment I will say he is doing a poor job. We don't look very well organised, few of our players are currently excelling, the playing style and results are poor.

But Ndombele has gone from being labelled a terrible professional to performing very well consistently with world class potential. Lo Celso has shown a few signs of being quality. Getting Lo Celso fit could transform our midfield.

Jose is always going to be a relatively short term appointment. If he gets the right signings this summer then we might be able to play with the discipline he requires.

It seems Jose knows how to put a winning team together but struggles if the players aren't what he requires. Sometimes you just have to manage what you have.

 

[Spurzinho]

Uh. Wha?

Every data point has a story. Context is meaningful.

You are correct in that mathematically speaking, there is a decline.

A quant analysis suggests less of a return on investment. But again, what is the context?

1. Porto run. He had a set of players that were good. He was a good tactician. They are/were in an average league. He did well.
2. Chelsea. He was backed by (at the time) the wealthiest owner in world football and provided with players he needed to fit his system.
3/4 - Inter and Real - same stories. Both good clubs, with excellent players, that he managed to get the best out of.
5. Second spell with Chelsea. Wins the league (lest everyone forgets), then shit goes sideways. Again, backed with money and already had a good squad.
6. UTD - was quite well backed, but struggled to find the right balance. Still won two trophies with them, and had them finish 2nd in the PL. Which I'm not sure any UTD manager has achieved since OWF.

Then we have Spurs. Context: A club with players on the decline, with a limited budget. Yeah, we thought our players started to underachieve under Poch. Turns out, he had them overachieving, and eventually they've regressed to their baseline abilities.

Stats always should be looked at in context of the situation.

If Pep left City 18 months ago, and joined us... you'd probably see the exact same chart. Why? Cos our team sucks compared to Barca in their prime. Bayern in their prime. And a City team that can outspend any other club in the world. Pep has never faced a serious footballing challenge in his life. Don't get me wrong. I'm sure he's a decent coach. But give me a break. Harry Rednapp would win trophies with the aforementioned teams Pep has managed.

Look, I'm not defending Jose or absolving him of any responsibility. Of course not. By any reasonable standard, we should be doing better. But like many say, the table at the end of the year doesn't lie and is a solid reflection of your team's current standard. Both in terms of playing staff and coaching staff.

Compared to the teams and periods and leagues they reference in that stat - Spurs is probably the biggest challenge he's faced as a manager. Is he failing? Maybe. I honestly just don't know.

But I kinda get annoyed at stats like that, as it really is just telling a fraction of the story. Not the bigger picture. Cherry picking something to create a negative narrative about the person.

A more interesting stat, was one from the other day that showed we have conceded 85% of goals under Jose due to direct mistakes or set pieces. That tells me a bit more about our situation, than this click bait stat. It tells me that he is potentially failing at getting the players to focus and cut out mistakes, we don't do well defending set pieces, maybe we're a little unlucky, maybe there are some players in the team who trip up over their dicks any time they play. All of this, some it, bits of it, all tell us a story about why we are in our current form.

In short: I would hardly call this an objective barometer of his abilities, as it pertains to whether or not he is 'declining'.

Data tells no stories. Every interpretation of the data is...interpretive. You've done the same. You say 85% of the goals we've concede under Jose have been the result of mistakes or set-pieces. Okay, but were these unforced mistakes or forced mistakes? Were they a result of tactical instruction backfiring? Were they perpetrated by the same couple of individuals, who picked them to play? The same with set-pieces. Who gives the team their set-piece instructions?

 

[GutBucket]

If this is the case IMO it's all wrong.

You don't spend all your training-hours on your next opponent. You spend it by doing your own team better - always focus on yourself because that's what you can affect the most.

It's of course fine with some training to different opponents, but this is why when we go 0-1 down or 1-0 up we look like we have no clear plan how to defend or to attack.

I much prefer the Poch-method & I can understand why some players don't agree, especially when results don't go our way.

That's why Ibrahimovic loved Jose and hated Pep. Jose doesn't coach players into great detail, he doesn't have to when he has top 3 richest team on the planet. With infinite money and time he can build defensively solid teams with top strikers who will do the job. Not possible here when we are skint, plus players have more power in social media era. You can't just tell Rodon what to do like you could with Terry and Cahill, you need to teach him.

 

[Styopa]

...or he needs to get better at giving them?

...or his methods just aren't as effective as they once were?

That's the most straightforward conclusion based on what happened at Chelsea, then at United and now here. He's steadily become less effective as a coach if we are judging on purely objective factors like win %, number and status of trophies won etc. He had an incredible first decade or so as coach -something like 20 major trophies I think. The last 7 or 8 years have not been anywhere near as successful - 4 trophies.

If we are realistic, the only reason we were able to employ him is that his career has been on a downward arc. We took a gamble that he would be able to reverse that trajectory. So far the gamble has not been a successful one -although potentially it could still pay off with a trophy or two.

 

[Betha]

Ok, sorry. I look back to his comments after the first game against Man U when he joined us and nothing has changed with the players seemingly unable or unwilling to follow instructions. He said that only he can prepare the players to not allow Rashford to come inside and shoot on his strong foot but to show them outside. It’s up to the players to take on the information and follow the instructions.

Like he’s recently remarked “some things he can’t coach”. I suspect this is exactly what he meant. That game was in October 2019 and they still don’t seem to be listening. So the players must go if they can’t learn instructions in over a year?

This is the same game in which he left Winks alone against Fred and McTominay all game, while having Sissoko covering the right back. Obviously this ended in us being completely overrun in midfield (not for the last time), and being lucky to only to lose by one goal. I have never witnessed a top coach be so utter hopeless in his tactical set up and in game management as Mourinho that night (hard words, but true). Reading complains from Mourinho after that game, where he delievered a 1/10 performance as a manager is strange (to keep it u.18 firendly).

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

We definitely have a confidence issue at the moment and yes I think it's up to Jose to change that as the is the manager.

I personally don't think he has caused the confidence issues as the same player have been making the same mistakes since day dot.

Ultimately it's down to him to change their already weak mentality but if he can't then we need to find someone who can or buy more confident players....

This is the crux of the whole issue for me.

We can say Dier is shit, Sanchez is shit etc.. etc.. but these same players were keeping clean sheets at the beginning of the season and not making huge mistakes every single match. We might need upgrades in certain positions but it the current incumberents are much better than they're showing.

Jose came out with a quote something like "some players have issues that I can't solve alone" - basically saying they aren't good enough. Which dereliction of duty imo. It's his job to instil belief in the team so he has to take some responsibility for some players looking sh*t scared everytime they step on the pitch.

 

[spursfan77]

This is the same game in which he left Winks alone against Fred and McTominay all game, while having Sissoko covering the right back. Obviously this ended in us being completely overrun in midfield (not for the last time), and being lucky to only to lose by one goal. I have never witnessed a top coach be so utter hopeless in his tactical set up and in game management as Mourinho that night (hard words, but true). Reading complains from Mourinho after that game, where he delievered a 1/10 performance as a manager is strange (to keep it u.18 firendly).

Wasnt that just sissoko doing his usual trick of wandering about and hiding from the ball. We’ve seen enough of him doing that. Maybe you’re right but we’ve seen our players do the opposite of what they are told so many times it’s hard not to think they do it time after time.

 

[spursfan77]

This is the crux of the whole issue for me.

We can say Dier is shit, Sanchez is shit etc.. etc.. but these same players were keeping clean sheets at the beginning of the season and not making huge mistakes every single match. We might need upgrades in certain positions but it the current incumberents are much better than they're showing.

Jose came out with a quote something like "some players have issues that I can't solve alone" - basically saying they aren't good enough. Which dereliction of duty imo. It's his job to instil belief in the team so he has to take some responsibility for some players looking sh*t scared everytime they step on the pitch.

But if he’s told them a hundred times and they still arent doing what he’s asked?

Sell them or don’t play them I guess as it is the same ones who keep making the same mistakes (Dier ball watching, Sanchez bad positioning). Maybe they just aren’t good enough?

 

[dudu]

This is the crux of the whole issue for me.

We can say Dier is shit, Sanchez is shit etc.. etc.. but these same players were keeping clean sheets at the beginning of the season and not making huge mistakes every single match. We might need upgrades in certain positions but it the current incumberents are much better than they're showing.

Jose came out with a quote something like "some players have issues that I can't solve alone" - basically saying they aren't good enough. Which dereliction of duty imo. It's his job to instil belief in the team so he has to take some responsibility for some players looking sh*t scared everytime they step on the pitch.

Agreed but let's be honest, Sanchez has had two coaches unable to turn him into a CB that installs confidence in anyone.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

If and when Jose leaves, this thread needs to be locked, deleted, burnt, shot out of a cannon into the sun, anything to just wipe it from the annals.

 

[Betha]

...or his methods just aren't as effective as they once were?

That's the most straightforward conclusion based on what happened at Chelsea, then at United and now here. He's steadily become less effective as a coach if we are judging on purely objective factors like win %, number and status of trophies won etc.

This.

I'm struggling to think of anywhere where the same methods are as effective today as they were twenty or ten years ago.

 

[Shadydan]

This is the crux of the whole issue for me.

We can say Dier is shit, Sanchez is shit etc.. etc.. but these same players were keeping clean sheets at the beginning of the season and not making huge mistakes every single match. We might need upgrades in certain positions but it the current incumberents are much better than they're showing.

Jose came out with a quote something like "some players have issues that I can't solve alone" - basically saying they aren't good enough. Which dereliction of duty imo. It's his job to instil belief in the team so he has to take some responsibility for some players looking sh*t scared everytime they step on the pitch.

I took that as him saying that there's a mentality/attitude issue with some players which coaching can't solve

 

[Betha]

Wasnt that just sissoko doing his usual trick of wandering about and hiding from the ball. We’ve seen enough of him doing that. Maybe you’re right but we’ve seen our players do the opposite of what they are told so many times it’s hard not to think they do it time after time.

No. This was during the period in which Sissoko played more as a winger and one of the central midfieldes went over to cover for him. Basically leaving the other central midfielder alone against the world.

Sissoko probably didn't do to well on the ball, but the set up was all on Mourinho. And it was horrible.

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

That’s a bad example if you think it through....

It might be but it was an early goal and the first one I could think of. We did start that game with fire in our bellies as far as I remember but feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

Agreed but let's be honest, Sanchez has had two coaches unable to turn him into a CB that installs confidence in anyone.

He's 24 though, which is young for a centre back. This is the same guy who dominated Ronaldo when we beat Madrid. He was great in his first season with us. Maybe he's not the answer long-term but he's got much more ability than he's currently showing. Many people on here were saying he was our most consistent defender last season.

If you know your coach will happily throw you under the bus in the media if the results are not positive it's hardly going to engender confidence. There is going to be a nervousness.

Whatever it is I think confidence rather than ability is the major issue here.

 

[onthetwo]

IMHO Levy has invested too much in this particular project to hit the kill switch before giving him the defensive reinforcements we can all see that he needs (not to mention the chance to win the trophy we all crave in April). Assuming the stadium is open next season it also makes sense that he will be given the players he needs over the summer to see if that makes the difference.

 

[dudu]

He's 24 though, which is young for a centre back. This is the same guy who dominated Ronaldo when we beat Madrid. He was great in his first season with us. Maybe he's not the answer long-term but he's got much more ability than he's currently showing. Many people on here were saying he was our most consistent defender last season.

If you know your coach will happily throw you under the bus in the media if the results are not positive it's hardly going to engender confidence. There is going to be a nervousness.

Whatever it is I think confidence rather than ability is the major issue here.

So then what is the deal with Aurier who had mane in his pocket for an entire game. Is that not down to Jose?

 

[spurs mental]

This is the crux of the whole issue for me.

We can say Dier is shit, Sanchez is shit etc.. etc.. but these same players were keeping clean sheets at the beginning of the season and not making huge mistakes every single match. We might need upgrades in certain positions but it the current incumberents are much better than they're showing.

Jose came out with a quote something like "some players have issues that I can't solve alone" - basically saying they aren't good enough. Which dereliction of duty imo. It's his job to instil belief in the team so he has to take some responsibility for some players looking sh*t scared everytime they step on the pitch.

We played in a style and system which helped the defence a lot, which some fans weren't happy with and said wasn't sustainable. There wasn't a whole lot of defending to do outside of our own 18 yard line. Lloris barely made any worldie saves because all the shots were from outside the box.

Its not really a surprise since we've moved to try and play more progressively than mistakes have been happening more regularly with both CBs and Hugo being the biggest culprits.

 

[Metalhead]

I am really up and down about it. I was in favour of hiring Jose but don't feel I need to stick by him as I am never completely confident in my manager appointment choices.

We did need a bit of a rebuild after a period of no signings and you don't address all your issues within a couple of windows.

At the moment I will say he is doing a poor job. We don't look very well organised, few of our players are currently excelling, the playing style and results are poor.

But Ndombele has gone from being labelled a terrible professional to performing very well consistently with world class potential. Lo Celso has shown a few signs of being quality. Getting Lo Celso fit could transform our midfield.

Jose is always going to be a relatively short term appointment. If he gets the right signings this summer then we might be able to play with the discipline he requires.

It seems Jose knows how to put a winning team together but struggles if the players aren't what he requires. Sometimes you just have to manage what you have.

As someone pointed out somewhere on this thread, most managers seem short term these days so perhaps getting hung up on this '3 season manager' label is almost pointless. Maybe the key, as someone else suggested is to maintain a philosophy so that when the inevitable managerial change happens - as happens so often these days - we find the manager to suit the philosophy.

 

[spursfan77]

No. This was during the period in which Sissoko played more as a winger and one of the central midfieldes went over to cover for him. Basically leaving the other central midfielder alone against the world.

Sissoko probably didn't do to well on the ball, but the set up was all on Mourinho. And it was horrible.

A bit like Poch’s midfield diamond then when Dier or winks were left alone against the oppositions midfield