Jose Mourinho

[spurs mental]

I don't think it's hypothetical

Its totally hypothetical though, unless you've got a crystal ball to say otherwise.

The only thing that isn't hypothetical is that those managers you mention would probably try to implement a visible style. Which we currently haven't got.

 

[slartibartfast]

I was livid yesterday and post Jose out for the first time.
Having finally calmed down I'm now wondering if we should be a bit patient, not because of any green shoots I see, I dont, or I think he can turn it around because at present, I dont.
However lets think about where we were 6mths ago regarding other managers.
Klopp, genius. Now he's lost it.
OGS, idiot. Now they sit 2nd in the league.
Arteta, laughing our arses off. Now they're close to overtaking us and he's turned it around.
Moyes, laughing our arses off at him. 'Here to win games' we laughed. We're not laughing now.
Even Pep was sitting way down the league a few months back and there were murmers he should go, now theyre comfortably top of the table.
The point is sometimes despite what a shitshow the club is in or how clueless a manager may look sometimes its worth holdding in there.
I dont like Jose. To be honest I despise the bloke. But he is a serial winner and has never failed to bring silverware whereever he's been so was it all just luck and money? I dont believe that, as much as I'd like to.
So maybe we should just hold on for a few weeks and see what happens?
Also every club is dropping points so 4 wins on the bounce and you fly up the table.
Even if this season is a write off could you hold on and see if next season brought success?
I'm gonna stay the execution for now.
COYS

 

[Aphex]

Its totally hypothetical though, unless you've got a crystal ball to say otherwise.

The only thing that isn't hypothetical is that those managers you mention would probably try to implement a visible style. Which we currently haven't got.

I actually do have a crystal ball I consulted with (looked into) before posting. It tells me Jose will be sacked and we will lose more games, a new manager will come in and do a better job than Jose is doing.

 

[14/04/91]

I was livid yesterday and post Jose out for the first time.
Having finally calmed down I'm now wondering if we should be a bit patient, not because of any green shoots I see, I dont, or I think he can turn it around because at present, I dont.
However lets think about where we were 6mths ago regarding other managers.
Klopp, genius. Now he's lost it.
OGS, idiot. Now they sit 2nd in the league.
Arteta, laughing our arses off. Now they're close to overtaking us and he's turned it around.
Moyes, laughing our arses off at him. 'Here to win games' we laughed. We're not laughing now.
Even Pep was sitting way down the league a few months back and there were murmers he should go, now theyre comfortably top of the table.
The point is sometimes despite what a shitshow the club is in or how clueless a manager may look sometimes its worth holdding in there.
I dont like Jose. To be honest I despise the bloke. But he is a serial winner and has never failed to bring silverware whereever he's been so was it all just luck and money? I dont believe that, as much as I'd like to.
So maybe we should just hold on for a few weeks and see what happens?
Also every club is dropping points so 4 wins on the bounce and you fly up the table.
Even if this season is a write off could you hold on and see if next season brought success?
I'm gonna stay the execution for now.
COYS

I agree with you, I don't think he'll turn it around but there is zero point in getting rid now as there is no obvious candidate and Levy should think long and hard about the next appointment.

We could still end up with 2 trophies and CL football next season (via EL). Then it's potentially a totally different environment.

I do believe that should we not win the EL, he's toast.

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

I have real issues with this assertion of the players being the common denominator and being uncoachable.

This is completely ignoring the key part that Poch himself checked out mentally around the time of the CL Final, seemingly defeated at the thought of trying to start a new cycle (and competing with teams with greater resources) and that filtered through to the players. Jose is clearly trying very hard to keep everyone on side in the last few weeks and the results are still poor.

ITK tells us Poch lost the dressing room and Jose hasn't yet. That makes what we have been showing under Jose even more damning IMO.

There are definite issues in the squad but I just haven't seen enough from Jose to quell the longstanding concerns that he is past his sell by date, an argument which I used to push back against.

I'd much rather see us rebuild under a coach like Nagelsmann whose tactics shouldn't fall apart if he doesn't have elite players in every position. The boom or bust form under Mourinho this season has been unlike anything I've seen before.

There are players that are the problem. Did Poch make mistakes and lose the dressing room? Yes. Is Mourinho likely doing the same? Probably. But let’s put them aside for one second here.

How mentally weak do you have to be to not show up for a CL final. To not show up for a derby against Chelsea/West Ham. To not show up or give any effort for 8 out of 10 games. To not show up for 70 mins of a game then light the world on fire for the last 20. There is a deep lying mentality issue here. Not a coaching issue. Not a technical (player attribute) issue in some cases. These things happened under BOTH managers from the SAME set of players.

They should fight, even bleed for that badge. PEH is the epitome of this kind of player. Son, Kane, Lamela, GLC, Ndombele, Tanganga, Bergwijn, Hart (sue me he knows how to lead) and Davies have all shown they have some fight in their belly.

This is not about having 11 world class players on the field. Not one of us have ever said that. This is about having 11 players who would kill to be on the pitch and give their all. Not 5 or 6. And I say 5 or 6 because we haven’t had the full set of fighters available due to injuries this season. But I’m sure You can catch my drift.

What we have is a dressing room split by the two types of players. This causes a group issue because one half is working harder than the other. But both are being punished because the collective isn’t moving in the right direction.

Let’s hope either things change drastically over the next few games or even if we do end up sacking JM, that a new manager could come in and kill this mentality off.

 

[Grapo2001]

Continues to pick Sanchez & Dier which is why he needs to go, he has no excuses for picking the same dross week in week out.

I think this is key to the argument here.

I feel bad for Jose as he has to watched defensive error after defensive error cost us games, yet he keeps picking the same dross and to continually randomise the back four each game isnt helping either.

 

[neogenisis]

Wonderful

Yup

 

[spurs mental]

I actually do have a crystal ball I consulted with (looked into) before posting. It tells me Jose will be sacked and we will lose more games, a new manager will come in and do a better job than Jose is doing.

Which manager is coming in as I'd like to put some money on it?

Lotto numbers would help me out big style too. Cheers.

 

[delawarespur]

I’m still someone who is Jose in, but also am aware of tangible evidence that has rightly led some to be Jose out. I think because I still see a team fighting for the manager and still have important matches to play on 3 fronts, that he should be given more time to turn it around.

I recognize the quality of the squad and do think he should be doing more, but I also see reasons, not excuses behind the poor results. I really do think the heart of defence lacks serious quality/consistency/reliability. This area of the team might be the most important in any squad, and it’s a major weakness. Jose picks them though and needs to find the best pairing, even though I believe every pairing will be flawed more than many clubs for one reason or another.

There’s still a lot to play for, which wasn’t the case at this point last year. I think it’s most important that we all are open to having our views challenged and changed. We’re all Tottenham fans, and we all want what’s best for the club. We have different viewpoints on how that is achieved, but stubbornly refusing to be open to the possibility of having someone/something change your mind is not the way to go about conversation with others. Try to help others understand your views calmly, and let yourself be open to others’ views altering the way you see things. It’s better when we’re all receptive and kind to others.

 

[Neon_Knight_]

I don't think it's hypothetical. I think it's realistic. Rodgers would get more out of this squad no doubt about it. In fact you could argue someone like David Moyes or Sean Dyche would get more out of this squad, that's how bad Jose is doing.

Those statement are very much hypothetical. If we sacked Mourinho and brought in any one of those three they might well do better...but that's hypothetical because it hasn't happened.

Moyes or Rodgers would possibly be realistic options for Levy to consider if/when Jose leaves. Top 4 (and no trophies) is the best I could see either achieving with us though. Hopefully we could attract someone better and back them with the players they need.

I think it's a shame Ancelotti wasn't sacked by Napoli a month earlier, as he's a proven winner and is currently showing he can help a PL team punch above its weight with limited transfer funds (and Rodriguez would have slotted into our CAM role nicely).
Mourinho joined us on 20/11/19 / Ancelotti left Napoli on 10/12/19.

 

[spids]

I feel bad for Jose as he has to watched defensive error after defensive error cost us games, yet he keeps picking the same dross and to continually randomise the back four each game isnt helping either.

A couple of games ago I said I thought his chopping and changing at CB might be him sending a message to Levy and Hitchin. Now I am convinced this is exactly what he is doing. And it has resulted in us plummeting down the table. Poor management.

 

[Betha]

What we have is a dressing room split by the two types of players. This causes a group issue because one half is working harder than the other. But both are being punished because the collective isn’t moving in the right direction.

Is this a known fact? And, do you have the names in the different groups?

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

Good post. It seems the narrative on here is the squad is poor and we need a total overhaul. And yet we have some very, very good players. Son, Kane, Ndombele, Reguilon, Højbjerg, Bale, Dele, Lo Celso are all quality players and even if we have to play a few others like Dier, Sanchez, Doherty, Winks and Sissoko, we should still be good enough to challenge seriously for top 4. The problem is the tactics and the coaching IMO.

Exactly. All I read is we need to 'refresh' and 'overhaul' the squad when the fact is since Pochettinos last summer with us we have signed new players in almost every position on the pitch.

Our defence is currently awful but this is the same defence that had the best record in the league during the first 8-10 matches. So surely it cant all be down to the ability of the players in the back 4? Regular mistakes can only down to lack of confidence. And who's job is it to restore the belief of these players?

 

[Aphex]

Which manager is coming in as I'd like to put some money on it?

Lotto numbers would help me out big style too. Cheers.

It's only a Spurs Crystal Ball I got from the Spurs shop, it doesn't cover lottery numbers unfortunately.

Seriously though, a new manager hasn't got to be that good to do better than Jose is doing.

 

[rossdapep]

I was livid yesterday and post Jose out for the first time.
Having finally calmed down I'm now wondering if we should be a bit patient, not because of any green shoots I see, I dont, or I think he can turn it around because at present, I dont.
However lets think about where we were 6mths ago regarding other managers.
Klopp, genius. Now he's lost it.
OGS, idiot. Now they sit 2nd in the league.
Arteta, laughing our arses off. Now they're close to overtaking us and he's turned it around.
Moyes, laughing our arses off at him. 'Here to win games' we laughed. We're not laughing now.
Even Pep was sitting way down the league a few months back and there were murmers he should go, now theyre comfortably top of the table.
The point is sometimes despite what a shitshow the club is in or how clueless a manager may look sometimes its worth holdding in there.
I dont like Jose. To be honest I despise the bloke. But he is a serial winner and has never failed to bring silverware whereever he's been so was it all just luck and money? I dont believe that, as much as I'd like to.
So maybe we should just hold on for a few weeks and see what happens?
Also every club is dropping points so 4 wins on the bounce and you fly up the table.
Even if this season is a write off could you hold on and see if next season brought success?
I'm gonna stay the execution for now.
COYS

To be honest we don't really have a choice anyway.

I don't see any temporary coach coming in and lifting this team. Maybe we get the typical new manager bounce but after 5 or 6 games it'd likely revert to type and that coach probably isn't a specialist in cup ties either, something Jose may still prove to have competence in.

The names been thrown around;

Benitez - No thank you! He is not the coach for this job, he's reactive and from the same kind of pool as Jose. He wouldn't have an assault on the top 4 and I think his managerial style is to be distant from the players.

Redknapp - give me a break. He downed tools many years ago and hasn't been in football for a while. He traded all that for the celebrity lifestyle.

Mason - Just, no! Love Ryan but he was a youth player under Lloris, Kane, Toby, etc - they wouldn't take him seriously.

King - Again, no. King has no experience as a coach and he also seems quite timid in situations. Maybe in future but he'd need to learn somewhere else.

Hughton - I like Hughton but he's quite defensive and again no success in big ties.

Allegri - Wouldn't come on a temporary basis

Sarri - Wouldn't come on a temporary basis.

I may have missed some but the club would need to take the hit and approach the summer with a refresh.

Two options;

Allegri - Go with a winner who may be able to raise the level, keep Bale and try bring in a quality CB/CM for him to work with.

or

Nagelsmann/Rodgers - Go with a coach who'll focus on the youth and will be happy to take players under the radar/potential

But we've backed ourselves into a corner here where firing Jose won't make too much difference, mostly cause there's no-one really available right now.

 

[mil1lion]

I think also it's been a case of diminishing returns from Mourinho for quite a while. Certainly ever since Real Madrid.

He won the league at Chelsea, his last league title nearly 6 years ago, and an FA cup, but things quickly soured there. He then won two more minor trophies at Man U, nearly 4 years ago, before things went bad there. The way things are going here reflects the trajectory his career has been on for some time now.

It's funny because hiring Jose was the equivalent of hiring Wenger when he was on the slide. I guess teams have sussed his methods out now and it felt a bit like that with Poch towards the end. The best managers continue to reinvent themselves.

 

[Trix]

You can't compare Poch's

Its totally hypothetical though, unless you've got a crystal ball to say otherwise.

The only thing that isn't hypothetical is that those managers you mention would probably try to implement a visible style. Which we currently haven't got.

I think something being missed as far as style of play is that since Jose arrived we've pretty much been playing a game every 3-4 days and had no real pre season in between the two seasons. When you consider there will be a day of rest after the games, then a day prep for the next match it doesn't leave a lot of time to learn much new stuff. Not to mention all the covid related rules and regs. Hardly comparable to Klopps start at Pool.

The results are poor no doubt, but he's not had the crack of the whip new managers in normal times always get.

 

[spurs mental]

Exactly. All I read is we need to 'refresh' and 'overhaul' the squad when the fact is since Pochettinos last summer with us we have signed new players in almost every position on the pitch.

Our defence is currently awful but this is the same defence that had the best record in the league during the first 8-10 matches. So surely it cant all be down to the ability of the players in the back 4? Regular mistakes can only down to lack of confidence. And who's job is it to restore the belief of these players?

We have, like under Poch, and on paper, a really good first XI when they're all fit. But the replacements really aren't as good as we would like to think. They never will be unless we get a Sheikh takeover.

I agree, a settled back four would go a long way to sorting some of the issues, and if we had a more identifiable style it would mean the replacements for the first XI wouldn't appear as poor as they have done. Its why we were able to get so much out of Davies and Trippier when Walker or Rose didn't play under MP. They weren't the best players or as dynamic as KW or DR but the way we played helped with that.

We aren't helped by the fact that Lloris is probably half way down the Chunnel to Paris already and he's the man behind the defence who has been able to bail us out before.

A decision on the two CBs needs to be made for the rest of the season. It will help. But I don't think any of them are really good enough to keep themselves a place after the season finishes unless they pull up trees.

 

[spurs mental]

You can't compare Poch's

I think something being missed as far as style of play is that since Jose arrived we've pretty much been playing a game every 3-4 days and had no real pre season in between the two seasons. When you consider there will be a day of rest after the games, then a day prep for the next match it doesn't leave a lot of time to learn much new stuff. Not to mention all the covid related rules and regs. Hardly comparable to Klopps start at Pool.

The results are poor no doubt, but he's not had the crack of the whip new managers in normal times always get.

Get out of here with your sense and reason!

 

[Shadydan]

Continues to pick Sanchez & Dier which is why he needs to go, he has no excuses for picking the same dross week in week out.

Sanchez will continue to be picked if you want to play on the front foot - I mentioned that in his thread as he has recovery pace that allows us to play 10 yards higher up the pitch.

Dier I think was picked to deal with Antonio as he usually does quite well against him but I think he just needs to be dropped now.