Jose Mourinho

[SUIYHA]

Since the NLD:

 

[H-SF]

And yet some people last night saying they know how to press because they did it under Poch? But now its Jose's fault because he doesn't coach it? Give me a break. They're professional footballers. They don't forget how to do basic shit like passing or moving or closing down space. They just aren't good enough

Jose quite obviously has not implemented a proper press. It's clear as day. Its not case that if the players just put some effort in suddenly our our press will look like Liverpool's. It has to be coached. In terms of 'basic shit like passing or moving', it's not as easy for players to hold and progress the ball against top sides in the premier league when the manager has clearly given them no proper/sufficient guidance in terms of buildup shape and possession structure. Granted some of our players are not good enough however if you can really look at how we are playing and see the tactical deficiencies we have and not think the manager is the problem then I give up. Our fans just need to accept this guy isn't a great coach anymore.

 

[rez9000]

Except many players have changed. The squad is not the same as the one he inherited.

What is not working is the leader is not able to motivate these players to perform at the level they’re capable of as a team. There is more human potential in this side than it is exhibiting. That was also true during Poch’s last season, even if we went on a wonderful CL run.

But this is not about individuals per se. It’s about relationships and capacities. Leaders unlock potential. Leaders get high off trying to improve their staff. Poch managed that for most of his reign. Mou hasn’t.

This doesn’t make Mou a worse coach than Poch. It means that Mou is not the right person in the right place at the right time. We need to find that person to lead our team. The person who can unlock the potential in this team.

You say it's not about individuals and yet your entire post is focused on a single individual and that person's perceived failings.

So it's about individuals when one can lay the blame at Mourinho's door, but if any other individual or individuals bear responsibility, then it's suddenly 'not about individuals'? That's not a robust argument, dude.

P.S. plus Disliking someone complimenting me is just pettiness. I've said how much I like debating with you, but if you're going to make it personal and dish out ratings to score points, if that's more important to you, then I'll just put you on ignore because it's not worth the candle.

Thank you for the compliment @-Afri-Coy- that was very kind of you to say.

 

[tototoner]

Decent article on BBC about the situation

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55944198

 

[spursfan77]

Under David f*****g Moyes of all people.

At this rate we'll finished behind West. Ham. United! That's how rotten things have gotten.

If you’re below West Ham in the table it is an easy barometer of how shit your team is.

 

[ohtottenham!]

Uh-huh. Right. Moving on.

You just seem to be railing on the players exclusively. It ain't helpful in my mind to getting much perspective re the whole problem we're seeing on the pitch.

 

[Deleted member 27995]

Happily accepted that Mourinho is now the creator of his own downfall over the last 1 - 2 months, be crazy to say he hasn't had a hand in it.

Happy to accept that (some) of the players have created the problems that has, for the most part, started this downward spiral in conjunction with Mourinho and his glaringly obvious mistakes.

As far as I am concerned, they should all get what's coming to them.

 

[SpartanSpur]

Jose quite obviously has not implemented a proper press. It's clear as day. Its not case that if the players just put some effort in suddenly our our press will look like Liverpool's. It has to be coached. In terms of 'basic shit like passing or moving', it's not as easy for players to hold and progress the ball against top sides in the premier league when the manager has clearly given them no proper/sufficient guidance in terms of buildup shape and possession structure. Granted some of our players are not good enough however if you can really look at how we are playing and see the tactical deficiencies we have and not think the manager is the problem then I give up. Our fans just need to accept this guy isn't a great coach anymore.

This is it. The complaints with Jose's football have gone far beyond aesthetics, they are fundamentally flawed when it comes to build up and any form of pressing structure. The game has moved on.

Anyone that braved the post match last night or listened closely to Hoddle on comms would see they are saying exactly the same thing.

 

[ohtottenham!]

This is it. The complaints with Jose's football have gone far beyond aesthetics, they are fundamentally flawed when it comes to build up and any form of pressing structure. The game has moved on.

I think we're seeing that play out.

 

[Caco]

Have avoided this thread for quite a while, but simple fact is we haven't played well since the first half against Arsenal last year. I know a lot of us lamented the Arsenal performance as a whole, mainly as we had won the derby, but from the 46 minute of that match we have been awful. Couldn't be arsed getting into the Jose in or out debate. I never wanted him from day one and regardless of whether he manages to rob us a league cup in April, I still won't want him. We can criticize the players, and probably with just cause, but the buck stops with the manager and I don't think I'm exaggerating wildly by suggesting we played better under Gross, Sherwood, Santini, Ramos, etc. than we are under this absolute charlatan. If he had any respect for himself and the club he'd have walked long ago. He has absolutely no idea what he's doing, so how are the players to know.

 

[Wsussexspur]

Got to think unless things unravel more quickly he will get until the Palace game. Imagine if he picks up minimum of 9 points between now and the full time whistle of that game plus qualifying for next Round of Europa league he will be given stay of execution till the end of the season.

More I think about this I really don’t think Levy will want to sack Jose mid season mainly due to the lack of readily available alternatives out there. So rightly or wrongly he is going to give him as much time as possible to turn things around. Also the lack of fans in the ground is probably helping factor into buying Jose time.

 

[Betha]

And yet some people last night saying they know how to press because they did it under Poch? But now its Jose's fault because he doesn't coach it? Give me a break. They're professional footballers. They don't forget how to do basic shit like passing or moving or closing down space. They just aren't good enough

In the front six at the start of the second half yesterday there were: three new, Ndombele who hardly played before Mourinho, and two who had played a lot before Mourinho. Given that pressing is a bit more complex than just closing down, but is also about things like closing passing lanes, forcing the opposition to play into areas you prefer etc., it's quite difficult two press effectively without it being a coordinated effort. You simply have to know what your teammate is going to before he does it. Otherwise you'll simply be played of by any PL team.

 

[jazz15c]

Ok, so bearing in mind Levy had an absolute hard on for the bloke for years, can we actually see him sacking Mourinho after 15 months? I can’t.

 

[rez9000]

You just seem to be railing on the players exclusively. It ain't helpful in my mind to getting much perspective re the whole problem we're seeing on the pitch.

Because I feel it's such a fundamental problem and such a large one that discussions over style of play, personality of the manager, all of the 'noise' that's being generated, are so secondary that they're meaningless. Plus you have the fact that it's so complex that it's difficult to remain concise. It's no secret that my posts are long. But would you believe in so many cases, I'm holding myself back from continuing so that it doesn't become book-length. But the issues are so complex that boiling it down to a single factor would be foolish even if that single factor was the prime contributory one.

Has Mourinho alienated some of his squad? Quite possibly. In a couple of cases I'd say definitely. But were any of them deserving of being pushed out of playing duties? Did he do it to anyone before giving them an opportunity to demonstrate why they shouldn't be left out of playing duties?

And does any of that relate to the problems when it comes to commitment on the pitch? Only tangentially, because it's happened before under a manager with a fundamentally different approach. If, say, we had a group of players who, no matter what was going on competitively, still put in a shift and then Mourinho arrived and they suddenly fell of a cliff, then logically you'd say he is likely the cause of it. But they've done it before, before he was appointed. In fact, he was appointed because they'd done it before.

And there may be other less visible factors at play too, namely our chairman and the recruitment staff. I read something in the Athletic a couple of years back, while Poch was still here. There was a suggestion that the manner in which Levy handled the players' contracts was a source of discomfort for them. What Levy has a tendency to do is regularly review the players' contracts, offering a small but significant increment while extending their contract. It all seems logical and a clever way of keeping your best players. But, the article suggested that this made players feel trapped by the club - they might not necessarily have wanted to extend their contracts, but at the same time didn't want to turn down the extra money. How much of it is true, I can't say (but it does explain Eriksen's stance on refusing to sign a contract - not that I excuse or deride that), but it's believable, it fits with what we know of Levy's approach to football, and it explains something. Not saying it is the fact, just that it's feasible.

The point though is that there are so many other factors that may have led to the attitude that our players have and that Mourinho isn't primary among them. He may have contributed - it would be naïve to suggest he hasn't, at the bare minimum, ruffled some feathers - but it still doesn't fully explain what the players are doing and it certainly doesn't excuse it.

 

[G Ron]

i bet @scat1620 is laughing his arse off at all of us.

If I could switch off the emotional attachment to this great club I would’ve done it along time ago. Sadly it’s never going to happen and so I’m destined for another few decades of disappointment.

I actually apologised to my eldest last night for subjecting him to a lifetime of misery following Spurs. Sad times!

 

[H-SF]

In his presser, Jose blamed our lethargic attacking football on confidence (fair enough) but on not having Kane, Reguilon, GLC and a 'good Dele'. Pretty pathetic if you ask me. How about instead of relying on your best players playing literally every single game you fall back on a system. Every other good manager does it. Plus, even when the above were in the team we played some turgid stuff. He wants to talk about how Lo Celso and a 'good Dele' would make a difference but he's literally never ever started more than 1 of Ndombele, Lo Celso and Dele. Instead he started Sissoko or occasionally Winks. What does he expect? To add to this how are we ever gonna get 'good Dele' when you don't even put him on the bench. Just a joke really, he needs to look at how he is setting up the team to play.

 

[olliec]

Sacking Jose is not the answer. I blame Levy and Enic. We have players who first came here five years ago getting regular first team because we have no other options. Sissoko, winks, Davies, aurier, Dier would not even get into a mid table team in the PL. we look like a Ferrari but run like a tractor. If we are going to progress Jose needs the players he wants and not the ones he is forced to play. We don’t know what’s going on behind the scenes with individuals but I’m pretty sure this isn’t the team Jose wants. He wants to set us up as a fluid counter attacking team, but he can’t do that with our current personnel. When your outball is sissoko who is an absolute donkey on the ball you know the system is not going to work. I say we write this season off try and win a trophy or two as Kane and Lo celso will be back and give Jose the summer to rebuild the team in his vision. Jose in for me!

 

[alfie103]

This frustrates me. This isn't a kick about over the park or even sunday league, these players are high level professionals and we can't base how we play on what the players want to play.

 

[scat1620]

i bet @scat1620 is laughing his arse off at all of us.

Haha, I wonder if others will come to the same conclusion that you're fucked on a cosmic level when it comes to Spurs and giving up is the only rational option. Time to snap Dr Ort-Meyer's neck, 47!

 

[n17er]

Have we made it too nice for them at the club?

The training ground and stadium, the wiping of their own arses but having a hotel at the training ground.

None of them are going to want to try harder if they are well paid and left in such a cushty environment.

I think the reason it has happened under two managers with a lot of the same players is because 5 or six of the players should have been moved on whilst Poch was in charge. He spoke of a painful rebuild at one point perhaps already noting the decline in them. Some of the players appear to have hit a ceiling and started to decline but it was happening way before Jose got there. That said I’m not absolving him for the last three performances and our style of play in general. He is a manager out of touch with the realities of the Premier League in 2021 and I don’t think he can change unless he did what Fergie did and bring in different coaches with new ideas. More likely he will be sacked. Sadly my team is very difficult to watch right now.