Jose Mourinho

[spurs mental]

8 out of 21 is almost a complete squad overhaul. I doubt there's many other teams in Europe let alone the league that have changed so much of their squad in that time.

Ok, I was trying to talk more about the starting XI but also trying to highlight the fact that we don't really have as good a squad like some people think.

We have signed 3 starters under him. 3 out of 11. So its not really a significant amount like some people are trying to say. The other 5 aren't starters. And rarely have they shown themselves to be good enough to cement themselves as starters either. .

And as I said, we don't really know if he ever wanted Bale. So I'd say 7.

 

[mr ashley]

If only this were the case id probably cut them some slack for looking up and seeing no movement in front of them, however Sissoko doesnt even have that thought in his head, his only thought as the ball is coming to him is to pass it back straight where it came from.

Sissoko’s only thought when the ball comes to him is “fuck! How am I going to control that round thing?”

 

[wadewill]

I dont think Levy's issue is buying players as much as selling them, his expectations on that side are way too high and has lead us to be riddled with deadwood

That said, they is more than enough talent for a manager to get to look like an actual football team.

Squad wise we are still top 4-5 in the league, we look like we would be lucky to be top 4-5 in League 1 at the moment

 

[WalkerboyUK]

Nothing groundbreaking but JJ responded with a thumbs up to someone on twitter asking is Jose under pressure from the board etc.

He wouldn't be if the Carabao final was next weekend, as it would normally be.
The moving of that to April, along with current form/results is the reason for the pressure.

 

[SUIYHA]

I agree with some of your points, but you clearly haven’t watched Liverpool recently if you think they have been creating lots of chances, pressing high and moving the ball around quickly. They haven’t been doing any of these things, which is why their results have been poor. Klopp has even come out and said this.

Crucially he didn’t blame the players, but more so fatigue.

They might not be doing it as well as they have been used to for the last couple of years but they're sure doing it one hell of a lot better than we are. Hate to be a stat monkey but take a look at our xG compared with theirs. The majority of our PL games this season we've had less than one xG and have barely reached a total of one in the last three games combined. Even when playing badly I doubt they've had more than one or two games below one xG all season.

 

[mr ashley]

I just don’t understand why everyone seems to believe our defensive problems will magically disappear if we just push more man forward and played on the front foot, we will just get picked off more easily as a result! And please stop this idea of us playing a possession base attacking football as we simply can’t with most of our players not comfortable receiving the ball under any kind of pressure. It’s always the easier way to just sack the manager when the team doesn’t seem to be responding but what the club should have done is let them know in no uncertain terms that the manager is not going anywhere and they either fall in line or find another club. That’s what We should have done with poch, but we took the easy route that just leads us back to where we were with the same problems.

This is true. In the second half when we started to press a bit, at one point kovacic rolled his man in his own half and was then able to run through a wide open gap all the way to the penalty area.
we were so exposed and I presume that’s exactly the moment that Jose has been trying to avoid either the low block strategy.
Obviously that plan is far from risk-free too, but does require a moment of brilliance or an error (or a deflection- not sure why we haven’t conceded more of those this season tbh). And of course over 90mins one error can happen which is why we’ve drawn so many.
I think you could get away with a counter attacking plan a bit more if you had midfielders who could move the ball quickly, because then you’d have runners attacking the space. But only Kane and Ndombele do that with enough quality.

So it looks like we are now caught between a rock and a hard place.
We can’t press because the defenders are too slow.
We can’t build with possession because our midfielders aren’t good enough on the ball (at least those who can stay fit or defend in any way).

 

[Teddy Klinsmann]

It’s ok, once Kane is fit, Dele discovers his 2017 form and lo Celso is not on an operating theatre, we’ll be back playing that scintillating football that we’ve come to love under Jose. Just a little blip.

 

[RJR1949]

I went to my first Spurs game in August 1961.

In all that time I have never seen such passionless, joyless, dispiriting football as that being played now. This team has no confidence, no bravery, no imagination and is bereft of ideas.

Even the team that was relegated in 1977 had more fight.

We have some very good players but Mourinho is displaying a special talent for making individual players worse,, and the whole less than the sum of its parts.

He has to go.

 

[rez9000]

It’s got nothing to do with the money they get paid.
It’s not as straightforward as just saying ‘they are doing what they love for a living’
Most will have been in the football industry since children, and so whilst it appears amazing from the outside world, the reality can be very different.

What would be more accurate is saying ‘they are doing what I would love to do for a living’

The amount of money they get paid doesn’t translate against their workrate. It does make it harder to move them on when we decide we don’t want them, but it also the primary way to attract them in the first place

But, if anything, that makes it worse. If they've been in the environment for that long, they should be well-versed in what is required of them. That they've then been able to get to top of the profession means they have, before, demonstrated the requisite effort. And their exposure to the world of football will also have provided them with lots of examples of what constitutes both success and professionalism.

They haven't suddenly become footballers and so be able to say that they're still unaware of how a professional should conduct themselves. They know precisely what they're doing and it's not acceptable.

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

I dont think Levy's issue is buying players as much as selling them, his expectations on that side are way too high and has lead us to be riddled with deadwood

That said, they is more than enough talent for a manager to get to look like an actual football team.

Squad wise we are still top 4-5 in the league, we look like we would be lucky to be top 4-5 in League 1 at the moment

Talented Players

Kane
Son
Ndombele
Stevie B
Regi
GLC
PEH
Rodon (prospect)
Tanganga (prospect)

Useless Players

Winks
Sissoko
Lucas
Toby
Dier
Davies
Aurier
Doherty
Bale

As much as this useless list might piss some of you off, it's the truth going off what we have seen this season and the past 24 months. Fact of the matter is we need more useful squad fillers than these.

The Core of the team lies largely in the useless column.

THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

 

[talkshowhost86]

We did manage to be at the top of the league for a while so to say it hasn’t been working since he arrived is just factually incorrect.

Sorry but that's akin to saying we should never have sacked Poch because we got to the Champions League final.

Not a valid reason to keep him at all.

 

[SUIYHA]

Talented Players

Kane
Son
Ndombele
Stevie B
Regi
GLC
PEH
Rodon (prospect)
Tanganga (prospect)

Useless Players

Winks
Sissoko
Lucas
Toby
Dier
Davies
Aurier
Doherty
Bale

As much as this useless list might piss some of you off, it's the truth going off what we have seen this season and the past 24 months. Fact of the matter is we need more useful squad fillers than these.

The Core of the team lies largely in the useless column.

THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

Are you really telling me that our squad is inferior to this one:

West Ham United FC Squad Information 2023/2024 | Premier League

View West Ham United FC squad and player information on the official website of the Premier League.

www.premierleague.com

 

[Deleted member 27995]

Sorry but that's akin to saying we should never have sacked Poch because we got to the Champions League final.

Not a valid reason to keep him at all.

You said it hadn't worked at all since he arrived ... Which is why the poster you're responding to made the point he made.

 

[rez9000]

I’m going to try and answer the Poch question, and then also answer why I think they’ve downed tools for Mourinho too.

It’s worth noting that Poch got a lot out of these guys for a long time, so clearly they liked him and wanted to work hard for him, and something changed in those final months. Pochettino demanded loyalty and commitment to the team and to your teammates, but in the last 12 months of his tenure, whether it was strained relations with the board or something else, he stopped shooting down rumours about him leaving, and this culminated in his comments before the Champions League final about leaving if we won because it would be impossible to do any better. In my view, this tells the players 2 things:
1) The manager doesn’t have the same loyalty to the cause that he demands from his players - damaging the relationship.
2) I don’t think the players I have are good enough to be where we are - damaging confidence.

Almost no surprise then when we start the new season terribly and the sacking became inevitable.

Under Mourinho, I think it’s a combination of things.
1) Mistreatment of popular players, especially Alli - regardless of how out of form he has been. If someone treats one of your best mates badly in your eyes, you lose respect for them and you probably don’t listen to them or trust them as much. That’s pretty human behaviour, and these guys are still human after all, albeit very well paid ones that as fans, we would like them to to not be susceptible to such human behaviours, but that’s just our love for the club driving what are ultimately unrealistic expectations. They are still human beings regardless of the size of their salary.

2) Again related somewhat to Dele Alli, against Stoke, he tried a clever flick, and it resulted in a counter attack. Mourinho went ballistic, and even gave him a bollocking in the press after the game for giving the ball away. He’s practically not been seen since. The message I think this sends is “don’t give the ball away if you want to play in this team” which naturally will result in my view, in players being more conservative, because no one wants a public dressing down or to be dropped.
There is a massive difference between the Pep and Poch attitude of “if you give the ball away, win it back quickly” approach, and the “do not give the ball away” approach, and I think we play with the latter, which is ironic given how often we go long and bypass midfield.
Unfortunately, a touch line bollocking followed by a dressing down in the media will live longer in the memory than any message on the training ground or half time team talk, you can’t un-hear those things. Subsequently, I think that’s why we play backwards, sideways, horrendous football.

Finally, it’s worth noting that I don’t lay all the blame at the door of Mourinho for our current situation, a number of players haven’t reached the standard of play that they should have, but football management is multi-faceted and complicated job, and like all management roles in any industry, it is primarily a people management job, and I think on that front, he is largely failing, and if irreparable damage is done to his relationships with players, it is time to go.

You raise some good points. I agree that what Poch did will be a contributory cause, as I've stated myself elsewhere.

The problem isn't what's causing them to do it - the problem is that they do it at all. This group has characters in it that feel it's appropriate to act in a fashion that will get the manager fired, damaging their own prospects of success as well as the manager's and the club's. No matter what's gone on, there's a line that can't be crossed.

Dele's been 'mistreated'? Because he got a bollocking? Alex Ferguson assaulted David Beckham during a half-time team talk. Remember the boot incident and the plaster over the eye photo? Beckham went for Ferguson in the dressing room and had to be held back. Did the rest of the squad down tools? No. They won the league that season.

He may be failing, but he's failing because the group he has are weak-minded and entitled and they refuse to put their own wants and desires below those of the wider objective and no manager will be able to get them to do the work. If I had my druthers, all the pre-Mourinho players would be shipped out and replaced, because it's all them.

EDIT: Also, isn't it funny how no one mentions Danny Rose and his freeze-out? No one weeps for Danny's career (not that I feel anyone should). No one questions Mourinho's man-management style when it comes to him.

 

[mr ashley]

But, if anything, that makes it worse. If they've been in the environment for that long, they should be well-versed in what is required of them. That they've then been able to get to top of the profession means they have, before, demonstrated the requisite effort. And their exposure to the world of football will also have provided them with lots of examples of what constitutes both success and professionalism.

They haven't suddenly become footballers and so be able to say that they're still unaware of how a professional should conduct themselves. They know precisely what they're doing and it's not acceptable.

Yeah but that wasn’t really the point I was making.

I think they are very well versed in how things work in the professional game. Self preservation on the pitch takes the pressure off them as individuals and heaps it on the manager.
I think that’s what we are seeing now sadly. They know how this plays out.
It’s awful watching it happen, but the wage they get paid has nothing to do with it.
You can call it unprofessional if you like - sadly I’d argue it’s part of being a professional - you protect yourself first.
agree that it’s not acceptable

 

[Colston]

If anything this Jose appointment has given me another 2 hours every weekend to practice the guitar.

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

Are you really telling me that our squad is inferior to this one:

West Ham United FC Squad Information 2023/2024 | Premier League

View West Ham United FC squad and player information on the official website of the Premier League.

www.premierleague.com

Another example of using an extreme scenario to fit a narrative.

Everyone and their new born knows West Ham are punching above their weight, using them to try prove a point is meaningless. When I say top 5/6, I am talking about the teams that CONSISTENTLY perform to that level. With COVID and the world's circumstances it's not surprising that a dark horse like West Ham are performing better than others.

That being said, there are STILL West Ham players I would rather have in our squad, which goes to show how shocking some of our players are.

 

[snakehipsspurs]

I don't think the "who's to blame" game is going to help the situation at all. What is clear though is:

1. Mourinho's tactics and leadership have failed to galvanise the players
2. The squad is devoid of characters and personalities who take responsibility for their own failings and improve performances
3. Despite bringing in quality in key positions, Levy has failed to shift the deadwood and we've ended up with a bloated and ageing squad that we can't upgrade due to finances and squad registration limits.

So, bearing those three things in mind, what is clear is that a huge turnover in the playing squad and style is necessary. Wether you blame Jose or not for the problems is irrelevant, the question you should be asking yourself is do you want Jose leading this turnover? Do you want players brought in to fit the play style we're currently seeing, and do you trust him to identify the right players and bring them in?

For me, it's clearly no. From what we heard all summer, the players he wanted were Hojbjerg (huge success), Doherty (awful) and Vinicius (not inspiring any confidence). Reguilon was Hitchens taking an opportunity, so was Bergwijn. Those are the sort of players we should be looking to build a team around. This summer will be an incredible opportunity to take advantage of the other club's finances and really transform this team, we cannot waste that.

I've backed Jose all this time and think he's still a good manager for the right circumstances, but for a club looking to evolve and build positively for the future, he's not the man. It may not be his fault we are where we are, but I don't think he's the answer to get us out of it.

 

[Rosco1984]

Are you really telling me that our squad is inferior to this one:

West Ham United FC Squad Information 2023/2024 | Premier League

View West Ham United FC squad and player information on the official website of the Premier League.

www.premierleague.com

Some people would rather believe we are just terrible all round rather than believing Jose has lost his touch. I was on his side when we were getting results but I do believe there's been a gradual decline in the belief of the team since the west ham 3-3 and that doubt about being able to safely attack has just been allowed to grow by the constant nit picking and conceited comments at his own players.

 

[easley91]

Anyone suggesting a squad overhaul is needed, as much as I agree, it won't happen this summer. Not in a financially hit world due to covid. No way.