Jose Mourinho

[spurs mental]

We are progressively outplayed by teams with much less at their disposal than us so that argument doesn't hold up- Brighton made us look like footballing dinosaurs last week.

I hate watching this football it bores me to tears. And only an idiot who witnessed the end of Mourinho's era at Man United would think it was ever going to be different here.

The meltdown and fallout isn't far away believe me.

Football purist thinks someone who isn't a football purist is an idiot. .

Imagine my shock.

So you think this team and squad are good enough to play under Pep? There isn't a chance in hell that we'd be able to play the style people want to see so much and the results be any different.

So many of these players are horrendous on the ball, can't complete a simple pass or move into space correctly to give an option.

 

[GutBucket]

Mourinho thinks defenders are shit.
That means that they have to sit deep.
That means that defenders are too far from midfielders and attackers so short passes are impossible.
Go for long passes and counter attacking.

It could work in theory if Lloris had better distribution, Regi, Kane, Lo Celso, Aurier were always healthy etc. We are not that lucky though and defending for the whole match is tiresome physically and mentally and when opposing team is parked in front of your goal mistakes will happen. Southampton and Villa don't have super fast CBs either and they don't overcompensate for them. Plus players don't like playing like Stoke with Pulis, even Instagram chicks can see that those are tactics for shit players in League One.

 

[Gingernut]

But Jose is telling them to camp on the edge our box and invite pressure so many posters in here say?

 

[SpartanSpur]

It's three pronged fuck up just as it was at the end of Poch's tenure, board, players and manager.

I just can't see the point in making the players enemy number one when both managers were making a lot of problems at the end of their subsequent reigns. It's all well saying the players are the common denominator (and its hard to argue with the stuff Rez and JS are saying about them) but the managers making mistakes were also a common denominator.

Poch was burned out just like the players after the failure of the CL and knowing how much work to do. If he was genuinely ready for his 'painful rebuild' I honestly believe he would have been allowed it. The finish of the CL season we limped over the line but the team spirit was still there, our weaknesses at CM and full back were just exposed. The next season Poch inexplicably tried the diamond which just exposed our weaknesses even more and didn't want to budge from it. He was snarky even when getting 2 record signings. He supposedly fell out with Levy early in that season and became more distant from the players. To stay he stabbed him in the back has some merit but he was almost asking them to do it with his actions IMO. This is coming from someone that loves the guy and what he did for us.

Everyone has already touched on Mourinho's failings in here. I have never seen such a perplexed studio as that BT Sport one last night and they clearly saw Jose as the culprit. These people know football. There genuinely was no idea what to do in possession and a comically disjointed press. I tend to agree with what Mourinho says to the players in terms of asking them to take responsibility and work for the shirt, but I don't think you can keep calling them out and not breed fear or negative feeling amongst the squad. Infighting is good and shows passion but if it happens every week it can break down the unity in the squad. I really wanted to believe in him but everything people have said about him has come to fruition, they can't all be wrong.

Do I wish some of them showed more balls when things get tough? Totally. I also wish some of them were simply better than they are, which is where the board are culpable. I totally get why some in here are livid at them but it is 100% a joint effort and you can't bring up the high player wages and not mention that the manager is supposedly getting paid more than all of them and responsibility for team performance is in his job description. I don't think it's as simple as they are moaning about the tactics because they don't like them. They are moaning about the tactics because they clearly aren't working and the manager is calling them out for it every matchday.

I do think it's going to be hard for whoever replaces Jose to have us challenging at the top again without some serious changes in the squad and recruitment. It is a worrying state of affairs, but I've seen enough from Jose to suggest he isn't the special one anymore and isn't the answer. Those gaps that have appeared in his gameplan are only going to get worse if he's allowed a rebuild.

 

[WannaDanceWithUdogie]

Football purist thinks someone who isn't a football purist is an idiot. .

Imagine my shock.

So you think this team and squad are good enough to play under Pep? There isn't a chance in hell that we'd be able to play the style people want to see so much and the results be any different.

So many of these players are horrendous on the ball, can't complete a simple pass or move into space correctly to give an option.

West Ham play better football than us ffs

 

[buckley]

these crap players got us to the top of the league albeit for a short time . Relatively new manager new season nevertheless we were top of the league. Then it becomes clear as a fan they may be top but there is no clear plan or system or way of playing its all ad hoc .
Then a player makes a mistake and is called out in public then a player tries a bit of flair play that does not come off he is then ostrisized .
These players have no confidence and probably lost the will to play as they know an error will see them called out . Then the paradox it seems now the same players are making mistakes and not getting lambasted by the manager Why? Has he changed his tune or is he selective in his condemnation even Harry has bad games but escapes criticism . Mourhino does have a squad but some players you never see . If something is not working then change it .I think the players heads are all over the place and they are in turmoil the fans turning on the players is just not right and not warranted if they play bad play someone else . Rodan / Tanganga / Alderwereld / are nt seen very often when some defenders are making mistakes .
In short Jose =make a mistake and " I will shame you in public " but not all players
Try some clever play and fail and you wont play again ( Deli ) but not Ndombele when he tries and fails in trying a trick .
Some other manager who manages Brighton said " I would never call out a player who makes a mistake or fails in some audacious move because it is bad for team spirit . You make your mind up which approach is right and which is wrong and which is best for your club your fans and your players .

 

[spursfan77]

'Painful rebuild'

Might as well go with a manager who can work with the young talent we have like Skipp, Sess and Rodon etc and accept mercurial, inconsistent football for a while until it clicks into Poch era Mk2.

Arguably.

No guarantee that happens though or else all teams would be doing it.

 

[Seafordian Spurs]

No guarantee that happens though or else all teams would be doing it.

Totally agree. We lucked out with Poch.

I guess my point was that it might be more enjoyable and fans might resonate more with the project than with what we're currently experiencing.

 

[jimbo]

I don't think there's much point in sacking Jose to bring in another big name manager who will show promise before succumbing to the same issues. The cycle of knee-jerking and stat-wanking goes on forever, as we desperately reach for glory and fall further away.

The Jose gamble has failed, but it's not just the manager that needs to be changed. That's why I'm for Rangnick - we need someone in charge of the whole football side, who will ensure the development, recruitment, managerial aspects are properly aligned and that we don't end up in the kind of mess we're currently in again.

It may be a painful road to take, we might lose some of our favourites, but I don't see the current set-up working out no matter who is picking the side.

 

[Beni]

I loved Poch, was an amazing guy and gave us some amazing moments, and gutted he was sacked. I Don't love Mourinho, but like and respect him and understand the rationale for his appointment, and do not think he is the messiah and nor excluded for any faults, he certainly does.
Sack him, don't sack him, passed caring to be honest. So so low with how things are with us as a club. How we can appoint a young manager, and get so near yet so far and not build on that high. How we can appoint a proven winner, yet fail to make any difference or have players realise the opportunity they have. How we are always the nearly guys. How we can buy decent players, improve the squad/team, yet always having that 'nearly' squad because we fail to address all the positions at the required moment. Instead we always have kept some players a year or two too long, and by the time we get around to improving on them, time then moves on where others that were good enough 1-2 years ago, now at the same fate and is endless cycle.

Get a new manager in, he may get some players in the squad back on side and that effort they put in for the initial new manager honeymoon period, may cover their lack of ability, but eventually we will be back here in 12-24 months no doubt.
I have backed Levy, and think he has done wonders as a club, but now is the time to realise that the clear out HAS to happen. With Mourinho still here in the summer or with a new manager I do not care. Backing the manager isn't about "Oh we bought x amount of players in". Backing the manager is selling what needs to be sold at the right times too. We will not steer away from this situation until we do.

Sorry, my post probably a bit lacking on getting my point across. Just during these times, having something you love the most (apart from family etc) take away that one enjoyment really hurts, and taking its toll on my overall happiness and really getting me down. I don't know what the answer is anymore with this club. I don't know why I torture myself and come on here either.

 

[LeParisien]

I have managed a company too and been managed. I am almost certain the dynamic is absolutely nothing like that of the manager/player dynamic at a football club.

Im not arguing that Jose isn't failing at particular aspects of his job, he clearly is, but the players are failing at theirs too and I know for sure that in the first half last night, those not pulling their weight, moving for the ball showing for a pass were NOT following basic football instructions.

Jose isn't saying.... Serge, don't make space and move for a pass, Tanguy, just stroll around and don't bother pressing properly.

Yes I agree the dynamic will be different. But it’ll be different at Oxfam and Virgin and Total and your local restaurant. The bread and butter of motivating teams and managing humans to improve performance will still apply across contexts. It is just the particular challenges will be different. That’s why the systems and approaches will be different. And someone who can do one can’t necessarily do another.

I agree that player performance is been bad. But my point is that these players are capable of more and that this is an institutional problem.

I’d say the same to @-Afri-Coy- too.

It’s just not plausible that so many players are playing so poorly without a group dysfunction. You can get 2 or 3 members of such a group being consistently bad and a number more showing natural fluctuations in performance. But when you reach a critical mass this is no longer down to individual issues but group dynamics. And those are solved by better leadership and management.

I’ll stress again - these players have a higher ceiling when well led. We know that because they consistently reached the top 4 and a CL final less than two years ago. The players now are stronger than then. Much derided players have achieved better results and played better football than they are now. Why are these players not playing as well en masse? That is a leadership issue.

 

[Metalhead]

these crap players got us to the top of the league albeit for a short time . Relatively new manager new season nevertheless we were top of the league. Then it becomes clear as a fan they may be top but there is no clear plan or system or way of playing its all ad hoc .
Then a player makes a mistake and is called out in public then a player tries a bit of flair play that does not come off he is then ostrisized .
These players have no confidence and probably lost the will to play as they know an error will see them called out . Then the paradox it seems now the same players are making mistakes and not getting lambasted by the manager Why? Has he changed his tune or is he selective in his condemnation even Harry has bad games but escapes criticism . Mourhino does have a squad but some players you never see . If something is not working then change it .I think the players heads are all over the place and they are in turmoil the fans turning on the players is just not right and not warranted if they play bad play someone else . Rodan / Tanganga / Alderwereld / are nt seen very often when some defenders are making mistakes .
In short Jose =make a mistake and " I will shame you in public " but not all players
Try some clever play and fail and you wont play again ( Deli ) but not Ndombele when he tries and fails in trying a trick .
Some other manager who manages Brighton said " I would never call out a player who makes a mistake or fails in some audacious move because it is bad for team spirit . You make your mind up which approach is right and which is wrong and which is best for your club your fans and your players .

Question is - realistically, will Levy make a change? On one hand, the players looked lost out there last night, can it get better? On the other hand, Levy has a lot riding on this appointment.

I'm not suggesting that Levy's position is under threat - we all know that he's going nowhere whatever happens. What I'm saying is that this was the big one - the statement appointment. If it does fail then it will be a source of considerable embarrassment and that must play a factor. It's not like it would be the first appointment that hasn't worked out but Jose was the big prize for Levy.

What do you think?

 

[Wsussexspur]

Reading the media reports this morning from there perspectives it does seem that there isnt a chance of us sacking him imminently.

 

[Monkey boy]

Second half showed some signs of intent from the team and the way we set up, first half was toothless. I'm still hopeful that things'll turn around with Mourinho as we have seen some games of fluid and clinical football with him over the past 9 months. Kane has played some beautiful stuff under him and it's been a joy to watch, and while credit doesn't fully go to Mourinho for that (he's said as much himself), the system at times has been set up in a way that plays to Kane and Son's strengths.

That being said, I'm not happy with how reliant we are on Kane and Son to create chances. I'm not happy that some players receive the ball in the middle of the park, look around for 5 seconds then pass it back to Toby or Dier then rinse and repeat. I'd like to see more attacking drive from our fullbacks and midfielders. Lamela coming on didn't change the result but he was hungry for it and it showed. It didn't lead to anything ultimately, but if the players all had that hunger from the start, the game could have panned out differently.

I've still got patience. If the long term payoff for what we're seeing now is a more stable and challenging team, then I'll take it. I know not many people here want him around any longer and that the enjoyment of football has been drained from most of us. I respect that. I just don't think sacking him now will solve all of our problems. If we were to bring a new manager in it might get off to a bright start but we'll probably be seeing a lot of the same issues a year or so down the line.

If only this were the case id probably cut them some slack for looking up and seeing no movement in front of them, however Sissoko doesnt even have that thought in his head, his only thought as the ball is coming to him is to pass it back straight where it came from.

 

[spurs mental]

West Ham play better football than us ffs

Whats the point you're trying to make here?

They have changed a lot of their team in the last 12 months. They are unrecognizable from when Moyes went back there.

They have players who would walk into our squad and probably our first XI too. Cresswell would give Reggie a run for his money, Antonio would be an upgrade on Vinnie, Soucek an upgrade on Sissoko, Coufal probably on Aurier, we were after Benrahma by all accounts. Bowen too although jury is out on him for me. Rice would be good here too although not sure we'd need him and PEH.

They've also dropped Mr West Ham off a cliff and its coincided with their best run of form for donkeys years.

 

[nico97531]

these crap players got us to the top of the league albeit for a short time . Relatively new manager new season nevertheless we were top of the league. Then it becomes clear as a fan they may be top but there is no clear plan or system or way of playing its all ad hoc .
Then a player makes a mistake and is called out in public then a player tries a bit of flair play that does not come off he is then ostrisized .
These players have no confidence and probably lost the will to play as they know an error will see them called out . Then the paradox it seems now the same players are making mistakes and not getting lambasted by the manager Why? Has he changed his tune or is he selective in his condemnation even Harry has bad games but escapes criticism . Mourhino does have a squad but some players you never see . If something is not working then change it .I think the players heads are all over the place and they are in turmoil the fans turning on the players is just not right and not warranted if they play bad play someone else . Rodan / Tanganga / Alderwereld / are nt seen very often when some defenders are making mistakes .
In short Jose =make a mistake and " I will shame you in public " but not all players
Try some clever play and fail and you wont play again ( Deli ) but not Ndombele when he tries and fails in trying a trick .
Some other manager who manages Brighton said " I would never call out a player who makes a mistake or fails in some audacious move because it is bad for team spirit . You make your mind up which approach is right and which is wrong and which is best for your club your fans and your players .

Those crap players got to the top of the league by playing with a system every one seems to hate. You may not like the plan but to say that we got to the top by playing ad hoc is simply wrong.

 

[Rosco1984]

Fuck me, how about we lay the blame at the people who actually matter?

The players. Grim. Horrible. Disgusting.

If Jose can't get the best out of them, then get rid. But I think the rot runs deeper into the so called "core" players of the squad.

Dier - horrendous.
Davies - useless
Son - doesn't step up without kane
Sissoko - waste of space.

Need to do something drastic, but honestly, without dier being a fucking idiot chelsea have done fuck all?

Fucking hell people have short memories. Under poch when we actually got the ball into attacking areas there were long periods where Son carried us while Kane was injured including a champions league win over man city. I'm sorry but these players are far far better than two shots against that Chelsea side. The structure they are being put in isn't. The fact that Mourinho thinks we were unlucky last night says it all.

 

[WannaDanceWithUdogie]

 

[Tucker]

Fucking hell people have short memories. Under poch when we actually got the ball into attacking areas there were long periods where Son carried us while Kane was injured including a champions league win over man city. I'm sorry but these players are far far better than two shots against that Chelsea side. The structure they are being put in isn't. The fact that Mourinho thinks we were unlucky last night says it all.

I’m not excusing how bad we were last night, but in some respects we were unlucky, they didn’t really pepper our goal did they, we limited them to one flea chance where Hugo made a great save. Were it not for the penalty we’d have got a draw, or if Vinicius had buried his chance. Chelsea are no great shakes at the moment, and they were pretty poor last night, we were worse, but we could have easily got a draw out of that game.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

Really? Doesn't Colchester not ring any bells?

Yeah really. I could always see a plan with Poch’s team, even if the players weren’t always able to implement it. Beyond sitting deep and looking for Kane to Son I see no plan from Jose. Even when we were picking up results the football was awful. It just leaves me empty and numb. I never had these feelings with a Poch team - it was more just frustration that players would miss a final pass or get caught on the counter after a sustained attack. Now we just look like lambs to the slaughter.

Players looking shit scared with no fans in the stadium can only come from the manager. He’s created a culture where players are scared to make mistakes through fear of being dropped or thrown under the bus in the media. Yes, people can say the players shouldn’t be so weak minded, but there is a reason a lot of the modern day managers aren’t so hard line. You need to adapt and realise this style of man management doesn’t work as well now a days.

Saying all this I still don’t want Mourinho sacked, yet. If we fail to get a win against West Brom then I think his position will be untenable.