4-2-3-1: pretty much ALWAYS! WHY?!?

[TwanYid]

I remember the first time I ever saw it was mid 2000's (beginning in 2004-05); the team was Liverpool- under Rafa Benitez- and they used this formation to great effect. Under him it was a fascinating set-up and I recall looking upon it- and them- with a kind of awe. They had the perfect set-up for that system with smart, solid defenders (Carragher, Mascherano, etc.) and unbelievably good CM's like Gerrard (obviously) and Xabi Alonso along with wingers like Kuyt, Benayoun, etc.- all playing behind the perfect # 9 in Fernando Torres. I know you all hate Liverpool but anyone on here who watched football at that time at least appreciated the versatility within their set up; that team was both defensive and offensive at the same time- and everyone knew their roles. What's more- it wasn't as if every player was peak Steven Gerrard; in fact, most of them were good players who played quite well within that set up. Everyone seemed to know his role, and, well, it just worked: right manager, right players, right formation at the right time.

My point is that in that case the manager- Rafa Benitez- who most on here slate but whom I think was fantastic for them and is/was an extremely good manager and a master tactician-- a guy who not only won the Champions League w/Liverpool but who also took them to another CL final (many forget that; yes, he failed to win it but once again he overachieved as Liverpool had Peter Crouch up front and were definitely not the 2nd best of the elite teams of Europe in 2007), who won the FA Cup (back when it was a big deal), won the Community Shield, got Liverpool to their highest-ever points total- and on and on (I won't even mention all the other trophies he's won elsewhere); anyway, point is, he made the team more than the sum of its parts....so yeah, back to 4-2-3-1: at the time I saw that formation as exotic-- something other teams play; we're Spurs- we play 4-4-2 of course.

Fast forward to Poch, and his insistence upon the double pivot, which for 3-4 seasons worked a treat: we had an airtight defense with super-athletic fullbacks bombing up and down the wings in Rose and Walker, rock-solid CBs in Jan and Toby, the ultimate double-pivot in Wanyama and Dembele, the classic # 10 in Eriksen, Son and Lamela (or Lucas, etc.) out on the wings in behind our perfect # 9 Harry Kane. Life was perfect. We, too, were a team that punched above our weight and despite not winning trophies like Liverpool, we were Goddamn wonderful to watch and I loved every minute of seeing my beloved Tottenham just maul the opposition.

But then, as always, things changed: Wanyama was no longer even a thing, Walker left, Dembele broke down (and eventually departed as well), Eriksen wanted- and eventually got- out...and yet there we were, week in and week out, playing 4-2-3-1-- despite clearly not even having the proper players for it. I mean it doesn't take a genius to see that when (peak) Wanyama and (peak) Dembele morph into Winks and Sissoko, maybe the whole "double-pivot"-thing oughta at least be looked at anew...or scrapped...

But nope-- no matter WHO we had playing for us, 97% of the time we played one formation and one formation only: 4-2-3-1.

Then Poch gets sacked and in comes Jose..."Ok- at least we'll see some tactical flexibility" thought I; after all, Mourinho played a 4-3-3 at Chelsea to great success- so yeah baby(!): Lo Celso ---- Hojbjerg --- Ndombele, here we come!!!!!

Finally no more "Autopilot 4-2-3-1!" Thank fucking GOD!!!

But, um, nope- 4-2-3-1 was STILL there- like that guy hanging around your house after the party's over...

Lastly- in comes Ryan Mason and for the biggest match of the season he goes (drum roll please): 4-2-3-1/Winks + Hojbjerg double pivot. My fucking jaw dropped when I saw both that lineup and that formation! Will someone enlighten me as to why now THREE managers in a row are all so stuck on this shitty (for US) formation? You know- the one in which we get overrun in midfield and Kane is starved of service?

What gives? Does Levy make every new manager sign some kind of blood contract that they will "Play 4-2-3-1 in at least 95% of Tottenham matches?"

Because as far as I can see, just about every proper good team plays 4-3-3. Are we barred from that formation?

 

[Waiwonder]

You're focused purely on the formation itself and not its flexibility.

A team can transition into multiple formations on the foundations of a 4-2-3-1 set up

 

[TwanYid]

You're focused purely on the formation itself and not its flexibility.

A team can transition into multiple formations on the foundations of a 4-2-3-1 set up

Everyone always says that but I don't see it that way; formations affect lineups, which in turn affect games.

 

[Waiwonder]

Im no tactician myself but if you ever want to see it out in detail, look up a detailed analysis of pep's City.

Reason why it stopped working for us is due to players going stale under poch (no new faces brought in) and mourinho playing park the bus which ultimately ended up in a 5-4-1 formation from a 4-2-3-1.

Next time you watch a game, look at which spaces players occupy, with and without the ball

 

[beats1]

You're focused purely on the formation itself and not its flexibility.

A team can transition into multiple formations on the foundations of a 4-2-3-1 set up

This is true, but lets be honest we haven't fluid or flexible

It does feel like when a manager suggests something different, the players get an aneurysm

 

[Waiwonder]

This is true, but lets be honest we haven't fluid or flexible

It does feel like when a manager suggests something different, the players get an aneurysm

Fluid and flexible are 2 different aspects of tactics. Fluid is the interchanging of positions. I.e. during the height of pochs stint, the front 4 of alli, kane, son and Erik's would constantly interchange and roam from position, creating confusing for opposition defences on who to mark.

Flexibility is the ability to play different positions and formations I.e. cancelo able to play as a wing back or central midfielder/ or a teams ability to switch from a 4-2-3-1 to a 5-4-1 when defending and then switch back to a 2-5-3 when attacking etc

 

[Waiwonder]

If any of you want to know why we can't play out the back or why we can't press, just re watch the final from the other day. There is absolutely no desire from the players to press. There is absolutely no desire from players to make an effort to move into space or pull opposition players. There were countless of times I saw one of diet or Toby with the ball but all 9 outfield players were literally just standing there doing nothing.

At the end of the day this all comes down to management. There's clearly no plan for the players to follow. A good coach will tell hojbjberg or winks in that scenario, to drop deeper and sit in-between the defenders to create a passing outlet, which in turn would create more direct passing outlets through the middle.

All 10 outfield players simply do not know what to do

The ll

 

[mil1lion]

We just played 433 in the final

 

[TwanYid]

We just played 433 in the final

That's not what it looked like to me at all- and even if that's true, it would be an anomaly. It's beyond argument that we set up with a double-pivot 97% of the time.

 

[mil1lion]

That's not what it looked like to me at all- and even if that's true, it would be an anomaly. It's beyond argument that we set up with a double-pivot 97% of the time.

He went with Winks central, Hojbjerg to the right and Lo Celso to the left. We were pretty narrow with the front 3 as well.
It's far too early to say what Mason is going to do but at least he tried something different even if the players selected were not ideal

 

[Waiwonder]

That's not what it looked like to me at all- and even if that's true, it would be an anomaly. It's beyond argument that we set up with a double-pivot 97% of the time.

Your conception that playing 2 central midfielders is automatically a double pivot is flawed.

 

[richard_gleeson]

I think it's a boring formation. I hoped the diamond was going to work to allow us to get another striker in

 

[Pat Rice Spurs fan]

Harsh to lump Mason in there. He really didn't have time to set up a new formation and all the tactics that go with it, in a week. It made sense that the players were playing in their usual positions (even if they didn't do what was required)

And for the same reason, as long as there's chance of gaining European football for next season, I do expect us to finish the season with the same 4-2-3-1 formation.

On your initial point, I always thought Benitez's Liverpool were over-negative, having a double pivot that sat deep (Hamann/Mascherano/Alonso/Lucas Leiva). So often I thought that if they'd just been a bit more positive, they could have played the football Spurs fans like.

 

[Japhet]

He went with Winks central, Hojbjerg to the right and Lo Celso to the left. We were pretty narrow with the front 3 as well.
It's far too early to say what Mason is going to do but at least he tried something different even if the players selected were not ideal

No idea why both Mason and Mourinho wanted Winks in the middle. That's absolutely where Hojbjerg should be playing.

 

[Shadydan]

I remember the first time I ever saw it was mid 2000's (beginning in 2004-05); the team was Liverpool- under Rafa Benitez- and they used this formation to great effect. Under him it was a fascinating set-up and I recall looking upon it- and them- with a kind of awe. They had the perfect set-up for that system with smart, solid defenders (Carragher, Mascherano, etc.) and unbelievably good CM's like Gerrard (obviously) and Xabi Alonso along with wingers like Kuyt, Benayoun, etc.- all playing behind the perfect # 9 in Fernando Torres. I know you all hate Liverpool but anyone on here who watched football at that time at least appreciated the versatility within their set up; that team was both defensive and offensive at the same time- and everyone knew their roles. What's more- it wasn't as if every player was peak Steven Gerrard; in fact, most of them were good players who played quite well within that set up. Everyone seemed to know his role, and, well, it just worked: right manager, right players, right formation at the right time.

My point is that in that case the manager- Rafa Benitez- who most on here slate but whom I think was fantastic for them and is/was an extremely good manager and a master tactician-- a guy who not only won the Champions League w/Liverpool but who also took them to another CL final (many forget that; yes, he failed to win it but once again he overachieved as Liverpool had Peter Crouch up front and were definitely not the 2nd best of the elite teams of Europe in 2007), who won the FA Cup (back when it was a big deal), won the Community Shield, got Liverpool to their highest-ever points total- and on and on (I won't even mention all the other trophies he's won elsewhere); anyway, point is, he made the team more than the sum of its parts....so yeah, back to 4-2-3-1: at the time I saw that formation as exotic-- something other teams play; we're Spurs- we play 4-4-2 of course.

Fast forward to Poch, and his insistence upon the double pivot, which for 3-4 seasons worked a treat: we had an airtight defense with super-athletic fullbacks bombing up and down the wings in Rose and Walker, rock-solid CBs in Jan and Toby, the ultimate double-pivot in Wanyama and Dembele, the classic # 10 in Eriksen, Son and Lamela (or Lucas, etc.) out on the wings in behind our perfect # 9 Harry Kane. Life was perfect. We, too, were a team that punched above our weight and despite not winning trophies like Liverpool, we were Goddamn wonderful to watch and I loved every minute of seeing my beloved Tottenham just maul the opposition.

But then, as always, things changed: Wanyama was no longer even a thing, Walker left, Dembele broke down (and eventually departed as well), Eriksen wanted- and eventually got- out...and yet there we were, week in and week out, playing 4-2-3-1-- despite clearly not even having the proper players for it. I mean it doesn't take a genius to see that when (peak) Wanyama and (peak) Dembele morph into Winks and Sissoko, maybe the whole "double-pivot"-thing oughta at least be looked at anew...or scrapped...

But nope-- no matter WHO we had playing for us, 97% of the time we played one formation and one formation only: 4-2-3-1.

Then Poch gets sacked and in comes Jose..."Ok- at least we'll see some tactical flexibility" thought I; after all, Mourinho played a 4-3-3 at Chelsea to great success- so yeah baby(!): Lo Celso ---- Hojbjerg --- Ndombele, here we come!!!!!

Finally no more "Autopilot 4-2-3-1!" Thank fucking GOD!!!

But, um, nope- 4-2-3-1 was STILL there- like that guy hanging around your house after the party's over...

Lastly- in comes Ryan Mason and for the biggest match of the season he goes (drum roll please): 4-2-3-1/Winks + Hojbjerg double pivot. My fucking jaw dropped when I saw both that lineup and that formation! Will someone enlighten me as to why now THREE managers in a row are all so stuck on this shitty (for US) formation? You know- the one in which we get overrun in midfield and Kane is starved of service?

What gives? Does Levy make every new manager sign some kind of blood contract that they will "Play 4-2-3-1 in at least 95% of Tottenham matches?"

Because as far as I can see, just about every proper good team plays 4-3-3. Are we barred from that formation?

We played 4-3-3 on Sunday?

 

[Shadydan]

No idea why both Mason and Mourinho wanted Winks in the middle. That's absolutely where Hojbjerg should be playing.

He's too easy to dribble past and not mobile enough to sit in front of the defence, he needs someone next to him in a double pivot or needs to play either side of the 3, look when Cancel went past him so easily by dropping his shoulder for example.

 

[TwanYid]

Your conception that playing 2 central midfielders is automatically a double pivot is flawed.

Ok- so for example in the Spurs of 2015-16 was Christian Eriksen a deep lying playmaker, part of a midfield three? No, right? On offense he was mostly advanced- camped out on the edge of the area ready to spray a pass left, right or center- no?

I mean you will grant me that sometimes 4-2-3-1 means two midfielders and 4 attackers? If I'm wrong I'll accept it I just want to know how.

 

[mil1lion]

No idea why both Mason and Mourinho wanted Winks in the middle. That's absolutely where Hojbjerg should be playing.

Yeah this is what baffles me. I still have hopes of Hojbjerg sitting central with Lo Celso and Ndombele either side. If Winks does play he should be in place of either of those.

 

[Shadydan]

Ok- so for example in the Spurs of 2015-16 was Christian Eriksen a deep lying playmaker, part of a midfield three? No, right? On offense he was mostly advanced- camped out on the edge of the area ready to spray a pass left, right or center- no?

I mean you will grant me that sometimes 4-2-3-1 means two midfielders and 4 attackers? If I'm wrong I'll accept it I just want to know how.

Your formation is the positioning of the players out of possession not in possession.

 

[ralphs bald spot]

not sure formations matter that much - players win matches