Why do Spurs accept bad decisions against us?

Led's Zeppelin · Jun 3, 2019

TottenhamMattSpur said:
And then look at why it happens. Is there a particular referee, is there behaviours by teams leading to refs making the wrong calls.

All we want is a fair game.

Lots of bitter Arsenal and others are convinced we cheated our way to a CL place by diving, and that everyone's against them.

You're beginning to sound a wee bit like that. I know you don't mean to but that's how it's coming across: sore losers.

Everyone wants a fair game. Make the rules more straightforward and you'll cut out a lot of controversy.

But you'll never get it 100% right. It's always been the same, because it's unavoidable.

matthew.absurdum · Jun 3, 2019

This thread is an embarrassment. Don't try to be that kind of supporters

TottenhamMattSpur · Jun 3, 2019

Led's Zeppelin said:
Lots of bitter Arsenal and others are convinced we cheated our way to a CL place by diving, and that everyone's against them.

You're beginning to sound a wee bit like that. I know you don't mean to but that's how it's coming across: sore losers.

Everyone wants a fair game. Make the rules more straightforward and you'll cut out a lot of controversy.

But you'll never get it 100% right. It's always been the same, because it's unavoidable.

Just to clarify, I'm not moaning about anything that has happened.

I'm just saying football as a whole would be far better if it was fairer.
In any other business, processes are constantly reviewed to make them better and more accurate.
VAR is a step in the right direction. But it will only work if it's actually checked. The ref cannot simply believe he made the right call and ignore it.

homer hotspur · Jun 3, 2019

TottenhamMattSpur said:
Just to clarify, I'm not moaning about anything that has happened.

I'm just saying football as a whole would be far better if it was fairer.
In any other business, processes are constantly reviewed to make them better and more accurate.
VAR is a step in the right direction. But it will only work if it's actually checked. The ref cannot simply believe he made the right call and ignore it.

As I say, I don't think that's what happened. The VAR people looked at it and told him there was no need to review.

Led's Zeppelin · Jun 3, 2019

TottenhamMattSpur said:
Just to clarify, I'm not moaning about anything that has happened.

I'm just saying football as a whole would be far better if it was fairer.
In any other business, processes are constantly reviewed to make them better and more accurate.
VAR is a step in the right direction. But it will only work if it's actually checked. The ref cannot simply believe he made the right call and ignore it.

But they do review these things, constantly.

And they try to improve things by tampering with the rules constantly too, which causes a lot of the problems.

Of course everyone wants a fair game. That's why we don't just have a ref and two linesmen any more. They are constantly trying to improve things and I'm sure overall they get more decisions right now than that used to, but 100% TV-camera, internet and pundit scrutiny exposes every slight uncertainty.

It's important to keep improving, but I think you're making more of this that is justified.

Luka Van der Bale · Jun 3, 2019

Spurrific said:
Tbf that pen was annoying - the fact he didn't even check it with VAR is a joke, considering the penalty Man City were awarded against us upon review.

I think it can be argued either way as a pen/no pen, but the lack of review was ridiculous - 20 seconds in, he doesn't lose anything double-checking. Most important game in club football, you'd think they'd use VAR at least once?

Sorry, but this is a misunderstanding of how VAR works. VAR checks *every* major decision; goals, penalties and red cards. You could even see him listening in his earpiece before letting the penalty be taken. The VAR official clearly thought it wasn’t worth the ref going over to the screen, and told him so. Whether you think that was the right call is another story.

TottenhamMattSpur · Jun 3, 2019

Luka Van der Bale said:
Sorry, but this is a misunderstanding of how VAR works. VAR checks *every* major decision; goals, penalties and red cards. You could even see him listening in his earpiece before letting the penalty be taken. The VAR official clearly thought it wasn’t worth the ref going over to the screen, and told him so. Whether you think that was the right call is another story.

It's the inconsistency of how they're dealt with that seems to bother people.

Llorente's goal was checked 58 times over about 5 minutes. But Kompany's blatant handball in the box wasnt even looked at.
The Rose one was very quickly given.
The Aguerro offside took ages to be dealt with compared to how simple it was to see.
VAR is good. It just needs to be clear and consistent in how it's applied to stop fans from getting the hump.

Spurrific · Jun 3, 2019

Luka Van der Bale said:
Sorry, but this is a misunderstanding of how VAR works. VAR checks *every* major decision; goals, penalties and red cards. You could even see him listening in his earpiece before letting the penalty be taken. The VAR official clearly thought it wasn’t worth the ref going over to the screen, and told him so. Whether you think that was the right call is another story.

Reading my post back, I can see how I've worded it badly. My issue is that the VARs have decided it wasn't worth a review, when it was. IMO (and I know it makes no difference), if they can check the Rose one, they have to check that one. I was under the impression they'd only be reviewed if there was a clear error (might be wrong?) - there was no clear error in not giving the penalty against Rose, yet in super duper slow mo it can be made to look a penalty (though we had a similar incident against City that wasn't checked?) - there was arguably an error in giving the pen against Sissoko as it hit his chest and then bounced onto his upper arm.

I guess the problem is even with the slow motion replays, there is subjectivity and the rules of the game are a bit of a mess imo. It's over now, anyway - so no point dwelling on it.

easley91 · Jun 3, 2019

TottenhamMattSpur said:
It's the inconsistency of how they're dealt with that seems to bother people.

Llorente's goal was checked 58 times over about 5 minutes. But Kompany's blatant handball in the box wasnt even looked at.
The Rose one was very quickly given.
The Aguerro offside took ages to be dealt with compared to how simple it was to see.
VAR is good. It just needs to be clear and consistent in how it's applied to stop fans from getting the hump.

At the end of the day it's down to those in the VAR truck and the ref himself. All it does is allow officials to review replays from multiple angles and slow motion. It is still down to opinion and interpretation.

Gareth88 · Jun 3, 2019

fedupyid said:
I have a question for Spurs fans why do we accept bad decisions against us there seems to be unfair bias against us?
This is a few examples:
Son Heung Min sending off against Bournemouth
Mousse Dembele suspension for the eye gouge against Chelsea when they were never punished for the same.
Ball to hand penalty in the Champions league Final
Pochettino ban because of Mike Dean. (Klopp does this all the time even got away with entering the field of play.
Jamie Redknapp the only player ever to get a yellow card upgraded to a red.

What would you like them to do? Scream at the ref get more bookings? Move on learn from this and grow COYS

vuzp · Jun 3, 2019

homer hotspur said:
As I say, I don't think that's what happened. The VAR people looked at it and told him there was no need to review.

i think that's the thing, some people say it was checked but it didn't come across very clearly on the TV if there was a check or not.

Drink!Drink! · Jun 3, 2019

I don't want us to be like Liverpool fans

But any video review would have shown clearly that it was not a penalty.

And will observe, if that penalty had been given against Liverpool - today would have seen them working on the wording of their resolution to the UN Security Council

mpickard2087 · Jun 3, 2019

It was reviewed. They're in contact with the ref via his earpiece. It's only when they opine their has been a potential mistake will the referee go and look at it.

I don't see what the complaints can be, it was chest/body first but it still hit his arm, in an absurd position, and blocked a ball going into the area.

But carry on the 'we woz robbed' narratives guys if It helps you cope with it better.

Monkey boy · Jun 3, 2019

To be fair in May just be my conception of things but we do seem to get a lot of controversial decisions go against us in big games. The point about just accepting them I think is fair aswell as to be honest even though I know we’ve been on the receiving end of some real dodgy ones particularly in FA cup semi finals I’d be hard pushed to name them now.

Off the top of my head in just big cup games:

Saturdays handball
Rose handball in QF
Lack of red card for Utd players last season
Moses dive
Chelsea ghost goal
Lack of red card for Cech
Pompey goal being offside

I’m sure there’s more and I guess some could argue either way on a few of the above but yeah it does seem that we get done quite a lot of the time but then just accept it and move along as what else can you do.

FibreOpticJesus · Jun 3, 2019

Gareth88 said:
What would you like them to do? Scream at the ref get more bookings? Move on learn from this and grow COYS

I don’t get where anybody is inferring that our players should be screaming at the ref. I do believe that Our teams do not try and influence the refs enough. We do not lobby the ref’s like our competitors do. I do not believe it changes the current decision they protest about but it might influence others. Both Liverpool and Manchester City target our players with persistent cynical and technical fouls. We need to pressure the referee on each one with players taking it in turns. We are missing a trick. It is noticeable that Poch has been more vocal this season. We need to do this on the pitch as well.

nicdic · Jun 3, 2019

mpickard2087 said:
It was reviewed. They're in contact with the ref via his earpiece. It's only when they opine their has been a potential mistake will the referee go and look at it.

I don't see what the complaints can be, it was chest/body first but it still hit his arm, in an absurd position, and blocked a ball going into the area.

But carry on the 'we woz robbed' narratives guys if It helps you cope with it better.

For the ref to be overruled by VAR, as far as I'm aware, it would need to be the "clear and obvious error", but the ref could and probably should have given his position sent it for proper review. He's behind Moussa, he can't see where the contact is made. And the letter of the law clarifies that whilst, yes it is handball if the ball hits an arm outside of the natural silhouette of the body, if it hits the arm having deflected off another part of the player's body, then it is neither a free kick or penalty.

Gb160 · Jun 3, 2019

mpickard2087 said:
don't see what the complaints can be, it was chest/body first but it still hit his arm, in an absurd position

mpickard2087 · Jun 3, 2019

nicdic said:
For the ref to be overruled by VAR, as far as I'm aware, it would need to be the "clear and obvious error", but the ref could and probably should have given his position sent it for proper review. He's behind Moussa, he can't see where the contact is made. And the letter of the law clarifies that whilst, yes it is handball if the ball hits an arm outside of the natural silhouette of the body, if it hits the arm having deflected off another part of the player's body, then it is neither a free kick or penalty.

So they thought it wasn't an error then.....

I think there has to be nuance in it, whatever the letter of the law says. If someone is trying to control a ball and then it bounces up and hits an arm accidently that's clearly not a penalty. But Sissoko's he hasn't even really blocked it, it's skimmed off him and the arm is out and has prevented the ball going into the penalty area. The right footballing decision has been made there.

If that's down the other end, and a penalty wasn't given, the thread would be about 500 pages long by now.

nicdic · Jun 3, 2019

mpickard2087 said:
So they thought it wasn't an error then.....

I think there has to be nuance in it, whatever the letter of the law says. If someone is trying to control a ball and then it bounces up and hits an arm accidently that's clearly not a penalty. But Sissoko's he hasn't even really blocked it, it's skimmed off him and the arm is out and has prevented the ball going into the penalty area. The right footballing decision has been made there.

If that's down the other end, and a penalty wasn't given, the thread would be about 500 pages long by now.

I for sure think it's one that if you're winning the penalty you call for it, but if it's against you it's harsh.

All I was doing was pointing out the terminology used in the official ruling, which would imply the ref got it wrong. And it was strange that given his position, and the magnitude of the call, that VAR wasn't used more. I'm not crying about it, though I do think it spoilt the game.

Thewobbler · Jun 3, 2019

I don't even understand why sissoko was pointing, there was no one coming on the outside of mane, there was just no need for it.

The ref gave the pen, checked with his VAR assistant and he agreed.

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Well done boys. Good process

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