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Who's the Greatest? Pele? Messi? Carlton Palmer?

Trotter

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2009
2,169
3,312
You should've just explained you didn't actually know what you were talking about. It would've saved both of us an awful lot of time. There's a reason CONMEBOL is acknowledged by pretty much everyone as THE most difficult qualifying region. If you're only aware of two teams, then that's your problem, but anyone who actually watches football would know that teams like Uruguay, Chile and Colombia have at different times over the last 10-15 years been amongst the strongest teams around. You very rarely find whipping boys or also-rans in that region, and that's before you add the likes of Mexico and the US.

Also, if you've watched any Argentina team over the last 15 years, you'll understand that there's a huge difference between what their team looks like on paper, and on the field of play.

If the argument is that Messi is not as good for Argentina as he is for Barca, then it's a fair one. But this dismal failure narrative is a load of demonstrable bullshit.

Of course I know what I am talking about, and would hazard a guess at a significantly higher level than yourself.
CONEMBOL is not pretty much by everyone recognised as the most difficult qualifying region at all, with exception that the number of games they have to play is very significant which makes it cumbersome. Half of the 10 countries in the region qualify for every World Cup, and you can already discount Bolivia and Venezuela, meaning 5 from 8 basically qualify with Ecuador, Peru and Paraguay usually being also-rans. Chile, Uruguay and Colombia qualifying for World Cups is generally a given unless they perform very poorly, whilst Brazil and Argentina are still well above those 3, or certainly should be if they play remotely anywhere near the level of the players they have available. Argentina have failed to qualify for the World Cup finals once, and that at a time when there was only 16 teams with 3 from South America in 1970, Brazil have famously qualified for every tournament.
And yes the difference between Argentina on the pitch and on paper has been large, and quite often because Messi himself has been poor, whereas a great player would get the best out of his talented teammates, he doesn't, he and they generally sink well below their levels whilst on International duties, and accordingly they have significantly underachieved.

This is why I say Maradona, Cristiano and Pele are/were all better than Messi. They have done it everywhere they have been, on both domestic and International stage, whereas Messi hasn't, he has generally failed and underdelivered in the Blue and White,
 
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Tucker

Shitehawk
Jul 15, 2013
31,131
146,021
It’s impossible to compare players from different time periods imo. Like others point out, in the past defenders were basically able to get away with murder, while now attacking players get far more protection. The game has evolved for better or for worse.

Today I think football is harder in different ways though, these pros are so focused and well prepared that they have to be at their very peak to put in good performances. Defenders may no longer be able to ”put a reducer” on attacking players anymore, but in contrast they are far more tactically coached and prepared.
 

Gassin's finest

C'est diabolique
May 12, 2010
37,354
87,822
Hellas Verona won their one and only title 2 years before Maradona won it with Napoli, and they're a far smaller club (just checked, that league title is literally their only ever trophy win, although probably dodgy as) - as much as Maradona was obviously amazing, Serie A was dog-shit in the 80s. If oldies could reminisce about Maradona without some casting aspersions on Messi, I'd never comment - but demeaning Messi's abilities is absolutely 'nanas
Not having that. Serie A was dominant in the 80s. Arrigo Sacchi assembled one of the greatest teams of all time at AC Milan.

On one hand, yes nostalgia may make past greats seem greater... but also its very easy to be disparaging of the past when confronted with the present.

Anyway you're all wrong, the answer is Robert Prosinecki.
 

Ionman34

SC Supporter
Jun 1, 2011
7,182
16,793
TBH it's a ridiculous question anyway. There are a variety of different positions on the pitch which have all had their GOAT's.

The fact that the players mentioned are all attackers is indicative of the mindset. Those saying Messi, CRonaldo, Pele, Maradona all seem to base their judgement on goals scored, but could any of these defend?
The answer is no, so how can you judge them as better than, say, Maldini? Baresi? King?
Could they play in goal?
Shit, even Stallone got in ahead of Pele and he's never played a game in his life!

In all seriousness though, the GOAT will forever be subjective. There will always be a large dose of bias based on favouritism, position played, stats and a whole lot of drivel that just serves to perpetuate the argument.

Personally, I don't give a shit. I'm fortunate enough to have seen most of these greats play when they were at their peak, and honestly couldn't say or care less about who tops the tree. They're all up there as the greatest players ever to play the game, along with many others not mentioned. These will be joined by many others over time.

This fixation about who is the best is just a tad ridiculous really.
 

Archibald&Crooks

Aegina Expat
Admin
Feb 1, 2005
55,533
204,721
As massively as football has evolved through the years it does make direct comparison difficult to say the least. Even objectivity, as much as one might try to apply it, doesn't help much because you just never know. You could perhaps slot the 'greatest' into eras to narrow it down. The 60's and 70's......Pele, the 80's and 90's that cheating **** whose name I won't mention. Then after that it gets skinny until Messi and Ronaldo. Plenty of fantastic players along the way but those are the stand-outs for me.

Zidane? Don't make me laugh.

For me it's between those four. Having seen all of them, it's hard to come up with a definitive 'greatest' because we can only guess how (in this case) Messi would fare when defenders could and would routinely make tackles that today would see them hauled in front of a judge.

I'd go Pele, Cheating ****, Messi and then Ronaldo :D
 

@Bobby__Lucky

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2013
2,933
3,982
Hellas Verona won their one and only title 2 years before Maradona won it with Napoli, and they're a far smaller club (just checked, that league title is literally their only ever trophy win, although probably dodgy as) - as much as Maradona was obviously amazing, Serie A was dog-shit in the 80s. If oldies could reminisce about Maradona without some casting aspersions on Messi, I'd never comment - but demeaning Messi's abilities is absolutely 'nanas

Hellas Verona won their one and only title 2 years before Maradona won it with Napoli, and they're a far smaller club (just checked, that league title is literally their only ever trophy win, although probably dodgy as) - as much as Maradona was obviously amazing, Serie A was dog-shit in the 80s. If oldies could reminisce about Maradona without some casting aspersions on Messi, I'd never comment - but demeaning Messi's abilities is absolutely 'nanas

Did I demean Messi' s abilities? Go check yourself, and respond to the post not what you think you saw. I've seen both in the flesh. Diego is king.
 

Spurrific

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2011
13,501
57,356
Did I demean Messi' s abilities? Go check yourself, and respond to the post not what you think you saw. I've seen both in the flesh. Diego is king.

I said “some” cast aspersions on him and attempted to demean his abilities, not that you have.

In 20 years I’m sure there’ll be some player I try to convince young people Messi was better than, and I’ll lord the fact I was alive long enough to have seen both over them too.

When they retrospectively awarded Ballon d’Ors, because Europeans used to be the only ones qualified to win, Maradona got awarded 2 - Pele got 7. Reckon the guys that decided who should have won the awards probably saw them both in the flesh too.

As has been said anyway, it’s entirely subjective. I just don’t believe it’s possible to be better than Messi, I’ve never seen any of these past legends do anything in their highlight reels that I haven’t also seen Messi do.
 

Ionman34

SC Supporter
Jun 1, 2011
7,182
16,793
I said “some” cast aspersions on him and attempted to demean his abilities, not that you have.

In 20 years I’m sure there’ll be some player I try to convince young people Messi was better than, and I’ll lord the fact I was alive long enough to have seen both over them too.

When they retrospectively awarded Ballon d’Ors, because Europeans used to be the only ones qualified to win, Maradona got awarded 2 - Pele got 7. Reckon the guys that decided who should have won the awards probably saw them both in the flesh too.

As has been said anyway, it’s entirely subjective. I just don’t believe it’s possible to be better than Messi, I’ve never seen any of these past legends do anything in their highlight reels that I haven’t also seen Messi do.
But they did it before him...
;)
 

@Bobby__Lucky

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2013
2,933
3,982
I said “some” cast aspersions on him and attempted to demean his abilities, not that you have.

In 20 years I’m sure there’ll be some player I try to convince young people Messi was better than, and I’ll lord the fact I was alive long enough to have seen both over them too.

When they retrospectively awarded Ballon d’Ors, because Europeans used to be the only ones qualified to win, Maradona got awarded 2 - Pele got 7. Reckon the guys that decided who should have won the awards probably saw them both in the flesh too.

As has been said anyway, it’s entirely subjective. I just don’t believe it’s possible to be better than Messi, I’ve never seen any of these past legends do anything in their highlight reels that I haven’t also seen Messi do.

Yeh ok but don't lump what you think of others on to me.

We disagree, don't mean you right don't mean I am. For what it's worth Messi doesn't get in my top 3. No one has excited me like Maradona, but let's leave it there, no use of to and fro. About the same thing. Enjoy your evening.
 

PeeEyeEmPee

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
1,925
3,125
Of course I know what I am talking about, and would hazard a guess at a significantly higher level than yourself.
CONEMBOL is not pretty much by everyone recognised as the most difficult qualifying region at all, with exception that the number of games they have to play is very significant which makes it cumbersome. Half of the 10 countries in the region qualify for every World Cup, and you can already discount Bolivia and Venezuela, meaning 5 from 8 basically qualify with Ecuador, Peru and Paraguay usually being also-rans. Chile, Uruguay and Colombia qualifying for World Cups is generally a given unless they perform very poorly, whilst Brazil and Argentina are still well above those 3, or certainly should be if they play remotely anywhere near the level of the players they have available. Argentina have failed to qualify for the World Cup finals once, and that at a time when there was only 16 teams with 3 from South America in 1970, Brazil have famously qualified for every tournament.
And yes the difference between Argentina on the pitch and on paper has been large, and quite often because Messi himself has been poor, whereas a great player would get the best out of his talented teammates, he doesn't, he and they generally sink well below their levels whilst on International duties, and accordingly they have significantly underachieved.

This is why I say Maradona, Cristiano and Pele are/were all better than Messi. They have done it everywhere they have been, on both domestic and International stage, whereas Messi hasn't, he has generally failed and underdelivered in the Blue and White,
Yeah, you don’t have a clue what you’re on about. And honestly, that’s fine.
 

Trotter

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2009
2,169
3,312
There's always going to be disagreement on something like this but what is obvious is that some of you puppies have no idea what defending was like in years gone by :D

I think you'd be shocked at what players could get away with.

I laughed so much I got hiccups ;)

Just direct them to Chelsea v, Leeds 1970 FA Cup FInal replay.
Michael Oliver re-refereed it during lockdown, said he would have dished out 19 yellow and 11 red cards under today's laws.
On the day 1 yellow card was issued, that was it.
 

'O Zio

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2014
7,405
13,785
Course it is. That's just what older people say so they can claim young people have missed out on some sort of mythical wonder years of football. Messi would have obliterated defenders in any generation and against any opposition ever.

Defenders back in the day would smoke a pack of 20 at half time, down a pint of Guinness and then fart their way back on the pitch, now they're real athletes sprinting full pelt for 90 minutes. It's a much more physically demanding game these days, but that's just imo of course.
I meant physically tbf, which it undoubtedly is - unless you lot think players were better athletes back in the day when they were part-time painter decorators as well as footballers. Messi would still make any defender from any generation you want to pick look foolish

It obviously just depends what you mean by physically. Nobody is disputing that players are more athletic/fit now than they used to be, but usually when people talk about the "physicality" of the game they're referring to the aggressiveness i.e. kicking people up in the air rather than about how long they can run for without getting a stitch.
 

Trotter

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2009
2,169
3,312
Yeah, you don’t have a clue what you’re on about. And honestly, that’s fine.

Sounds very much like, Taking my ball home as people aren't letting we win. ??

It's Ok, you can have weird opinions if you want, that is your right, but if you won't even entertain that they just might not hold up under even the smallest scrutiny and just run away. then it holds you in a very low light. I will have conversations with more mature people instead.

Hits IGNORE USER button
 
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popstar7

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2012
3,036
9,367
I don't think Best is credible for best ever. I mean he shouldn't even be in the discussion. Career peaked by the time he was 22. Was pretty much finished in top flight football by his mid-20s. His record just doesn't stand up.
 
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