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Who's the Greatest? Pele? Messi? Carlton Palmer?

Trotter

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2009
2,169
3,312
Messi. It's not even close.

I don't even think Messi is best of his own generation, let alone all. When removed from a star-studded Barcelona stage, he has failed dismally on the International Stage, whereas his compatriot dragged a poor team to become World Cup Winners

My rankings
Maradona
Pele
Cristiano
Cruyff
Messi
 

punkisback

Well-Known Member
Apr 10, 2004
4,410
7,278
Ronaldo the original probably the most gifted I have seen. But stats wise it’s Messi and Cristiano a short second. I think the quality of world class players has declined since the late 90s early 00s though.
 

PeeEyeEmPee

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
1,925
3,125
Messi. It's not even close.
This. He's been head and shoulders the greatest player in the most athletic era in the game's history, even though athleticism isn't close to being one of his best attributes. He would've been just as great in any other.

Anyone claiming he has it easy now just needs to spend 5 minutes on Youtube looking at the number of brutal challenges he's had to endure throughout his career.
 

PeeEyeEmPee

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
1,925
3,125
I don't even think Messi is best of his own generation, let alone all. When removed from a star-studded Barcelona stage, he has failed dismally on the International Stage, whereas his compatriot dragged a poor team to become World Cup Winners

My rankings
Maradona
Pele
Cristiano
Cruyff
Messi
On what planet can carrying his team to the World Cup Final and 3 Copa America finals be considered a dismal failure? This is absurd logic.

Btw, that 1986 Argentina team wasn't anywhere NEAR being a poor team. Stop talking nonsense.
 

ILS

Well-Known Member
Jun 21, 2008
3,803
6,913
I loved watching Maradona and I think he reached levels during periods of his career that will never be touched; however for pure longevity it has to be Messi. I remember leaving that match against them at Wembley not giving a shit we lost because I saw him at his best. It was a joy to behold.
 

Archibald&Crooks

Aegina Expat
Admin
Feb 1, 2005
55,533
204,721
There's always going to be disagreement on something like this but what is obvious is that some of you puppies have no idea what defending was like in years gone by :D

I think you'd be shocked at what players could get away with.
The game is harder now,
I laughed so much I got hiccups ;)
 

Spurrific

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2011
13,501
57,356
There's always going to be disagreement on something like this but what is obvious is that some of you puppies have no idea what defending was like in years gone by :D

I think you'd be shocked at what players could get away with.

I laughed so much I got hiccups ;)

I meant physically tbf, which it undoubtedly is - unless you lot think players were better athletes back in the day when they were part-time painter decorators as well as footballers. Messi would still make any defender from any generation you want to pick look foolish
 

Trotter

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2009
2,169
3,312
On what planet can carrying his team to the World Cup Final and 3 Copa America finals be considered a dismal failure? This is absurd logic.

Btw, that 1986 Argentina team wasn't anywhere NEAR being a poor team. Stop talking nonsense.

What 3 Copa America runners-up, a tournament they go into as favourites or second favourites every time ? The Copa America is basically a tournament comparable to La Liga, where he is playing for 1 of the 2 countries way beyond the rest of the field, and he hasn't won it in 5 attempts, and dragging a team through to 2014 World Cup final, he didn't even score in the knockout rounds, and Argentina scored only 2 goals in 4 matches in them, despite having Di Maria, Higuain, Aguero etc. Their defence dragged them through that, they won 1-0, 1-0 and on pens after a 0-0, before losing 1-0 in the final.

His International record is very poor in comparison to Maradona, Cristiano, Pele etc.
 

popstar7

Well-Known Member
Jan 14, 2012
3,036
9,367
If the game becoming less aggressive since the 90s made it that much easier for attackers you'd expect quite a few other players to have had similar careers to Messi and Ronaldo. Maybe not scoring 700+ goals but a few scoring 400 or 500 against defences that can't kick them out of the game. Hasn't happened though. Those two are so far ahead of any of their peers there's no comparison. And when they're gone I think it be a long time before we see anyone as good again.
 

tiger666

Large Member
Jan 4, 2005
27,978
82,214
If you guys haven't watched Diego, I thoroughly recommend it.

I meant to add. He played for Napoli from 84-91.
If you visit Naples, you would think he is still their star player. Posters., murals, barber shops, toys, etc. He is more popular than Jesus

There's a 2 hour documentary on Youtube about him, haven't watched it yet though

 

max cady

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2011
2,538
3,153
In my opinion it has to be Pele and I'll explain why.

Pele, simply glided along the ground, made the game look simple. Was humble in his approach and his 3 W/C wins will never be bettered would have been 4 had Brazil not been kicked off the pitch at the '66 W/C. He made normal players look and act as if they were the greatest. In the 58 W/C final at 17 he simply tore Sweden to shreds scoring 2. Got injured in 62 W/C. 66 Brazil were quite literally kicked out of first by Bulgaria then Portugal, 70 W/C they beat all in front of them including England. He made normal players like Jairzinho, Carlos Albertos, Tostao, Gerson et al household names. When great players saw him play he made them want to hang up their boots. There is a reason why he was voted the greatest player of the century because he was.

How would he have fared in modern football he would be Cruyff, Messi, Ronaldo(Brazilian), Platini, Zico, Zidane & C Ronaldo all rolled into one. He was simply head and shoulders above everyone. Like many other greatest in their sport Pele for me will always be the greatest footballer.
 

Kingellesar

This is the way
May 2, 2005
8,706
9,209
If the game becoming less aggressive since the 90s made it that much easier for attackers you'd expect quite a few other players to have had similar careers to Messi and Ronaldo. Maybe not scoring 700+ goals but a few scoring 400 or 500 against defences that can't kick them out of the game. Hasn't happened though. Those two are so far ahead of any of their peers there's no comparison. And when they're gone I think it be a long time before we see anyone as good again.

Mbappe has a chance of getting to those sorts of figures for goals. Haland too. But long way for those 2 to go.

For me, it's Messi, just a joy to watch. Although when I was younger, I used to watch a lot of old world cups and Pele was incredible, its a tight one but I think Messi edges it for me personally just because I have got to see his career progress and develop.
 

Spurrific

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2011
13,501
57,356
In my opinion it has to be Pele and I'll explain why.

Pele, simply glided along the ground, made the game look simple. Was humble in his approach and his 3 W/C wins will never be bettered would have been 4 had Brazil not been kicked off the pitch at the '66 W/C. He made normal players look and act as if they were the greatest. In the 58 W/C final at 17 he simply tore Sweden to shreds scoring 2. Got injured in 62 W/C. 66 Brazil were quite literally kicked out of first by Bulgaria then Portugal, 70 W/C they beat all in front of them including England. He made normal players like Jairzinho, Carlos Albertos, Tostao, Gerson et al household names. When great players saw him play he made them want to hang up their boots. There is a reason why he was voted the greatest player of the century because he was.

How would he have fared in modern football he would be Cruyff, Messi, Ronaldo(Brazilian), Platini, Zico, Zidane & C Ronaldo all rolled into one. He was simply head and shoulders above everyone. Like many other greatest in their sport Pele for me will always be the greatest footballer.

From the footage available these days, he definitely looks like the only past footballer that can hold a candle to Messi - and his 7 retrospective Ballon d'Ors are testament to that.
 

@Bobby__Lucky

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2013
2,933
3,982
If you guys haven't watched Diego, I thoroughly recommend it.

I meant to add. He played for Napoli from 84-91.
If you visit Naples, you would think he is still their star player. Posters., murals, barber shops, toys, etc. He is more popular than Jesus

He does even have his own church there. Well not his, but a church dedicated to worshiping him.
 

@Bobby__Lucky

Well-Known Member
Aug 20, 2013
2,933
3,982
Suprised so many have said Diego. I agree totally and wholeheartedly, but usually Im a minority. He was simply incredible and did it all the wrong way, which proves his worth more. Napoli were never the same again. Think it was actually Terry Venables who sold Deigo whilst at Barca. Deigo was like OK I'll win league titles at the equivelant of QPR.
 

TriXed

Well-Known Member
Aug 19, 2011
489
637
I'm sorry boys but you're all wrong. It's Harry Kane.

Thread closed.
 

Spurrific

Well-Known Member
Jun 2, 2011
13,501
57,356
Suprised so many have said Diego. I agree totally and wholeheartedly, but usually Im a minority. He was simply incredible and did it all the wrong way, which proves his worth more. Napoli were never the same again. Think it was actually Terry Venables who sold Deigo whilst at Barca. Deigo was like OK I'll win league titles at the equivelant of QPR.

Hellas Verona won their one and only title 2 years before Maradona won it with Napoli, and they're a far smaller club (just checked, that league title is literally their only ever trophy win, although probably dodgy as) - as much as Maradona was obviously amazing, Serie A was dog-shit in the 80s. If oldies could reminisce about Maradona without some casting aspersions on Messi, I'd never comment - but demeaning Messi's abilities is absolutely 'nanas
 
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PeeEyeEmPee

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2012
1,925
3,125
What 3 Copa America runners-up, a tournament they go into as favourites or second favourites every time ? The Copa America is basically a tournament comparable to La Liga, where he is playing for 1 of the 2 countries way beyond the rest of the field, and he hasn't won it in 5 attempts, and dragging a team through to 2014 World Cup final, he didn't even score in the knockout rounds, and Argentina scored only 2 goals in 4 matches in them, despite having Di Maria, Higuain, Aguero etc. Their defence dragged them through that, they won 1-0, 1-0 and on pens after a 0-0, before losing 1-0 in the final.

His International record is very poor in comparison to Maradona, Cristiano, Pele etc.

You should've just explained you didn't actually know what you were talking about. It would've saved both of us an awful lot of time. There's a reason CONMEBOL is acknowledged by pretty much everyone as THE most difficult qualifying region. If you're only aware of two teams, then that's your problem, but anyone who actually watches football would know that teams like Uruguay, Chile and Colombia have at different times over the last 10-15 years been amongst the strongest teams around. You very rarely find whipping boys or also-rans in that region, and that's before you add the likes of Mexico and the US.

Also, if you've watched any Argentina team over the last 15 years, you'll understand that there's a huge difference between what their team looks like on paper, and on the field of play.

If the argument is that Messi is not as good for Argentina as he is for Barca, then it's a fair one. But this dismal failure narrative is a load of demonstrable bullshit.
 

scat1620

L'espion mal fait
May 11, 2008
16,285
52,502
Is there a conversation to have about Peak Value vs Career Value when considering who is the GOAT? Now that I'm above the fray and no longer following football I can't engage on the same level as all you ruffians, but in Mike Duncan's excellent The History Of Rome podcast he talks about the different ways that greatness is measured: from the Career Value end of the spectrum (where you have a consistently excellent Emperor like Augustus who enjoys an unmatched career in terms of longevity and productivity) to the Peak Value end of the spectrum (where you have an Emperor like Aurelian who performs unparalleled peak performance feats like getting Rome back on its feet after the Crisis Of The Third Century, but who only reigns for 5 years and doesn't measure up in terms of an overall contribution).

Is there some kind of parallel that you plebs might find useful to take into consideration when arguing about this football malarkey?
 
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