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Time to drop the 4-2-3-1?

Nebby

Well-Known Member
Dec 27, 2013
3,363
6,377
Our fullbacks are poor so we need a system that offers more protection, not one that leaves them exposed.
 

paulcumpstone

Well-Known Member
Jul 17, 2008
8,781
10,892
Our biggest problem for me isn't so much the formation more so the tactics. We try and play out from the back constantly but have a back 4 who arent good enough on the ball, dont move it quick enough and a midfield infront of them that dont move or offer enough nor are able to create space or pass the ball quick enough to play the tactics that we have been trying for the past year, the only time it looks remotely effective with our players is when teams sit off us and allow us space and time to play. I swear half the opponents chances come from us either being sloppy or over playing in our own half.
 

CheeseGromit

Well-Known Member
Aug 22, 2013
745
578
As pointed out previously the problem with 4-2-3-1 is that we dont have the right players for the 2
When Dembele Dier or Wanyama played there we worked fine
That system actually protected the likes of Eriksen and the full backs. We are getting lots of cross field passes played behind the FBs at present

Currently we don’t have the right players for either system
 

TEESSIDE1

Married, new job and Spurs on the up!
Jul 3, 2006
15,089
18,780
Our biggest problem for me isn't so much the formation more so the tactics. We try and play out from the back constantly but have a back 4 who arent good enough on the ball, dont move it quick enough and a midfield infront of them that dont move or offer enough nor are able to create space or pass the ball quick enough to play the tactics that we have been trying for the past year, the only time it looks remotely effective with our players is when teams sit off us and allow us space and time to play. I swear half the opponents chances come from us either being sloppy or over playing in our own half.

Alderweireld’s once loved long balls are now also completely ineffective because we only have one player with pace regularly in the line up (Son) and he’s either tucked inside and/or marked out of the game. A few seasons ago Toby had the option of picking out Rose, Walker or Son. We’re now completely one dimensional. The passing out from the back compounds this issue as once pressure is applied by the opposition we hoof the ball straight back to the opposition.
 

punkisback

Well-Known Member
Apr 10, 2004
4,410
7,278
I think we need a proper inside right if we want to play this; Lamela can deputise but lacks the pace. Moura just doesn't seem to fit into any system we can play. He just can't play like a proper winger and gets sucked inside where his pace has little effect.
 

punkisback

Well-Known Member
Apr 10, 2004
4,410
7,278
Hmm, another thought. If we go 433, Sess played as a RWF for Fulham in the championship at times. Would also help the FB by tracking back and his movement off the ball to get into goalscoring positions is good.
 

walworthyid

David Ginola
Oct 25, 2004
7,059
10,242
We need more numbers to press. We have got 3 players pressing 5 or sometimes 6. The 2 holding players are completely redundant as are the full backs. Its beyond ridiculous and poch has got to take responsibility for not being able to see it. If we cant defend then we need to press the ball higher up the pitch by dropping one of the holding 2 and playing 4-3-3 or 4-1-4-1. Its beyond ridiculous. There is always the risk that a team will beat your press of course, but we just dont bother to press and invite teams on. Then we invite them on even more by failing to beat their press. It is happening game after game after game. Inferior players are making us look ridiculous. Watford, brighton, Sheffield utd etc. Why are we sitting back?

I'm getting very close to not watching us until something changes. It's been almost a year. Even when we were appalling in the 90s we used to play well from time to time. Now, we are turgid every week.
I would rather us go out there, get in players faces and show some fight and lose every week than this spineless, clueless rubbish that I'm watching.
 

midge

Well-Known Member
Jul 28, 2011
400
784
I dont think changing of formation or tactic would work
It has to do more with the personnel

Our current situation reminds me of the situation when Poch first took over the team . Back then he was on a run of bad results until he decided to take the plunge and trusted in the young players like Kane , Mason , Nabil and drop Soladao, Ade, Kaboul, Capoue

I think he needs something similar but given that the expectation as low in 2014-2015 season vs the current season after our many years of success, he has lost the balls to trust in the young players. Success might have also gotten to his head a bit and made him less flexible and open to changes

He seriously lack a DM . Sissoko is not a DM . Tanguy is not one too neither is Winks. Dier was doing a good job as one but has faded

The team tries to play out of defence but if you notice, in the previous years we have DM who will drop deep and form a 3 for the GK to pass out to . But now we dont we have CD one on each side of the GK waiting to received, this is making us start very deep and very easy to press

The academy kid Japhet can play as a DM supposedly and we need to drop Ali for his own good and give Moura or even a academy player like Roles , if we recall him, a shot

KWP cant be worse the Aurier at RB
 

Hoddle&Waddle

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
8,337
17,565
I think we need a proper inside right if we want to play this; Lamela can deputise but lacks the pace. Moura just doesn't seem to fit into any system we can play. He just can't play like a proper winger and gets sucked inside where his pace has little effect.
When has Moura ever had a run of games on the right wing though?

He's mostly played up front and that's usually one off games here and there.
 

Hoddle&Waddle

Well-Known Member
Nov 25, 2012
8,337
17,565
I dont think changing of formation or tactic would work
It has to do more with the personnel

Our current situation reminds me of the situation when Poch first took over the team . Back then he was on a run of bad results until he decided to take the plunge and trusted in the young players like Kane , Mason , Nabil and drop Soladao, Ade, Kaboul, Capoue

I think he needs something similar but given that the expectation as low in 2014-2015 season vs the current season after our many years of success, he has lost the balls to trust in the young players. Success might have also gotten to his head a bit and made him less flexible and open to changes

He seriously lack a DM . Sissoko is not a DM . Tanguy is not one too neither is Winks. Dier was doing a good job as one but has faded

The team tries to play out of defence but if you notice, in the previous years we have DM who will drop deep and form a 3 for the GK to pass out to . But now we dont we have CD one on each side of the GK waiting to received, this is making us start very deep and very easy to press

The academy kid Japhet can play as a DM supposedly and we need to drop Ali for his own good and give Moura or even a academy player like Roles , if we recall him, a shot

KWP cant be worse the Aurier at RB
Can't do much worse by chucking Skipp in there as CDM. Tanguy and Sissoko either side.
 

double0

Well-Known Member
Aug 29, 2006
14,423
12,258
I'm amazed people still talk about no Plan B or lack of formation. Nobody can accuse Pochittinho of not trying other tactics formation or rotating players. The bottom line is we need better players when Pep came to Man City he was given a ton of money and was able to buy better players.
 

DomXYZ

Member
Sep 4, 2019
61
60
I personally don't like it. It is an overly defensive formation that sacrifices a player in the attacking area. Look at Sheffield utd, and many other teams, they had extra players in the forward area and strangled us. We couldn't play out. Yet they played out easily because we had fewer players to press them.

I also don't think that we have 2 players who are suited to the deep-lying role. Sissoko isnt. Ndombele isnt. Winks isnt.

Yes there are clearly confidence issues. Harmony in the camp issues. But we could set up properly. We have no pattern of play. No energy. No intensity. No imagination. No pace. No creativity. We are absolutely shambolic. The only times we have played well is when we have played how we used to. We were sustaining high energy pressure for entire matches week after week. Now we arent able to do it for a few minutes.

For me personally this is more than a blip. I love poch but this has been going on for very close to a year. As it stands a new manager would have some excellent players to work with, if we leave it for much longer we could end up losing quite a few of them.

I think that he should go immediately.
Overly defensive how?

Ndombele-winks/glc
Sissoko

to me that’s balanced, selection is a bit shallow but don’t think it’s anywhere near over defensive when we have one player doing most of the defensive work
 

DomXYZ

Member
Sep 4, 2019
61
60
I think we need a proper inside right if we want to play this; Lamela can deputise but lacks the pace. Moura just doesn't seem to fit into any system we can play. He just can't play like a proper winger and gets sucked inside where his pace has little effect.
I agree which is why I mentioned Sessengon potentially playing RW or at the very least getting games there
 

DomXYZ

Member
Sep 4, 2019
61
60
I've been saying exactly the same for quite a while. Sissoko naturally takes responsibility and loves to tackle. It's obvious he needs to become a 6. Ndombele and Lo Celso are both willing to tackle but need to be released to push forward and create.
Yes completely agree with that, I think everyone cringes when we see Sissoko in the final third...give him a specific role and I think he could do very well

ndombele/glc and winks to extent can handle the transition from defending to attack
 

John48

Well-Known Member
Aug 31, 2015
2,249
3,143
I think Poch wanted to go to 4-3-3 when he tried buy Dybala & we're now being linked to Depay. Whether that's a good thing I'm not sure, but I can only assume he wants to have something like Son, Kane & Depay up front.

He's tried Son, Kane & Lucas a couple of times this season, but it hasn't worked, which is a shame, & he's seemed to have dropped it for now.
 

Gassin's finest

C'est diabolique
May 12, 2010
37,355
87,829
I'm not a fan of the double pivot in all honesty. I like a flat back four, a strong DM, flanked by a pair of box-to-box mezzala's, with an all round center forward playing with an enganche/trequartista combination either side of him.

Example (based on what we have, going forwards):

Foyth -- Tanganga -- Sanchez -- Sessegnon
Ndombele -- Dier -- Winks
Son -- Kane -- Lo Celso​

Obviously that can be rearranged on a personnel front as you wish, but you get the gist.
 

The Doc

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2012
881
2,456
I'm not a fan of the double pivot in all honesty. I like a flat back four, a strong DM, flanked by a pair of box-to-box mezzala's, with an all round center forward playing with an enganche/trequartista combination either side of him.

Example (based on what we have, going forwards):

Foyth -- Tanganga -- Sanchez -- Sessegnon
Ndombele -- Dier -- Winks
Son -- Kane -- Lo Celso​

Obviously that can be rearranged on a personnel front as you wish, but you get the gist.

I like that. Would switch Winks for Lo Celso and have Lamela in front. Would also have kwp ahead of Forth. Appreciate it could go badly with both him and Tanganga, but it's bad already. Stick a couple of the homegrown in, tell them they are going to get a proper run of games as first choice and hope (lads, it's Tottenham) the crowd get behind them. He's done it once, albeit Kane, Mason, Bentaleb had loan experience, so jfdi.
 

DomXYZ

Member
Sep 4, 2019
61
60
I'm not a fan of the double pivot in all honesty. I like a flat back four, a strong DM, flanked by a pair of box-to-box mezzala's, with an all round center forward playing with an enganche/trequartista combination either side of him.

Example (based on what we have, going forwards):

Foyth -- Tanganga -- Sanchez -- Sessegnon
Ndombele -- Dier -- Winks
Son -- Kane -- Lo Celso​

Obviously that can be rearranged on a personnel front as you wish, but you get the gist.


backline is too frail imo I wouldn't be able to trust that

Dier at cdm would also be a bit dodgy for me, and GLC as a LW I dont think would work, I'd prefer Sess way further forward
 
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