The Y Word

Led's Zeppelin

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But they could which is why PC has gone mad and our usage of Yid is now completely justified.
What do you mean “they could”?

They haven’t. So what are you worrying about?

We’re talking about a word in a dictionary. No one is talking about banning words. They are asking whether it’s OK to use them in any circumstances we choose without ever considering their effect on other people.
 

ToDarrenIsToDo

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No one is going to ban the word bagel if it's used in the normal context. If it becomes part of a chant that thousands of people are using then it would need to be seriously looked at.
Absolutely I agree. As I said I know it's nonsense but what you're saying is that if a normal word becomes bile or shambolically used the solution is to prevent even those using it for good reasons to no longer use it as well? For me it's a solution that papers over the cracks.

It's hypothetical yes, but so are many of the worlds issues that get discussed. A little dramatic I agree and yes I'm over inflating the Bagel situation but I don't see why people need to have words censored because a spiteful group use it in a bad way. It's an iffy subject and honestly if the word yiddo genuinely caused pain and discontent across the board then no longer use it yes. I personally don't know many people that are Spurs fans that ever say anything negative about it. I know plenty of rival fans who take offence to it but I doubt anyone can say that Tottenham fans don't use it in an endearing way.

A word used affectionately will get silenced by those that use it negatively. The negative crowd ultimately win and I don't think that is good for society. As mentioned we've had numerous Jewish people in charge of the club that have never banned it so is it an offensive word or are people slowly being manipulated to believe it to be offensive? That's my concern with it but ultimately there's nothing me or you can do, it's just a debate that's worth discussing amongst all involved in the grey area involved with it. No harm or malice invented, just an open conversation about all the risk and counter arguments it brings.
 

dontcallme

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What do you mean “they could”?

They haven’t. So what are you worrying about?

We’re talking about a word in a dictionary. No one is talking about banning words. They are asking whether it’s OK to use them in any circumstances we choose without ever considering their effect on other people.
I think you completely missed the sarcasm of the post.
 

ToDarrenIsToDo

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What’s your argument?

That because there are some ridiculous usages recorded in the dictionary we should disregard everything and say whatever we feel like saying to everyone?

I honestly don’t know if you’re being serious or whether you just don’t like the idea that some things can be genuinely hurtful. Or don’t care.
My argument isn't the usages recorded in the dictionary, it's the fact that the dictionary powers that he regard it as being used to frequently as a derogatory term that it's not etched into their records as being.

Personally I've never heard the word Bagel being used in such a way. It seems ridiculous. If it is however and that continues to develop then when do we consider censorship or the word and isn't that fair?

The word yid was never used initially to regard someone in a derogatory way, it's evolved into it through hatred so my question is do we censor the word itself or do what we can to combat the hatred behind the word? Ultimately I'm not Jewish so it's hard for me to understand the issues or potential hassle behind it but I'm not really pro censorship of words, I'm more pro educating the impact of malicious behaviour. I think censorship merely papers over cracks and that more should be done at a deeper level, more rooted in the understanding of anti-Semite, racist, bigoted and nasty behaviours and their repercussions. Whatever will be regarding this issue will be and if the word truly offends then I for one will respect that, even if I think it should be dealt with in a different way.
 

Rocksuperstar

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One thing that confuses me over this as, obviously, it's very much opinions and there's no way on earth everyone's going to agree - disagreeing is what humans do best - is why there is this constant comparison with "le N word" when it is absolutely apples and oranges.

That word was used specifically to disparage and dehumanise entire continents. It has a deep, deep rooted history in belittling based on nothing more than the colour of someone's skin, of cruel physical and mental abuse, torture etc.

From what I can work out, Yid is simply an insulting contraction of the word "Yiddish", with very little historical aggression or oppression behind it, being a phrase used by the Jewish community until it was adopted by Fascists, mostly because it was easy to chant? I mean, please, correct me if there's any deeper origin to it or if I've missed something in this comparison between Y and N, but I don't see the similarities and it feels a lot like the outrage from people like callers to Talksport here would probably not be half as loud if it was still just another word that Jews could use to dig at each other.

Is this more about cultural appropriation?

I am starting to be of the opinion that, in this rapidly biege-ing world, we need to look at this like drink driving and that the responsible thing to do is to accept that while we can play nice with it, others can't. We have to cater to the lowest common denominator. If we continue to belt it out then others will see it as a green light to use it in a derogatory fashion. We KNOW that there are too many knuckle draggers at football grounds to be able to use it sensibly or to not use this word - a word that they probably only know because we sing it - with malice or spiteful intent.

I'm a bit surprised that there has been no token uprising from the gay community for West Ham being called Irons, even as a bit of a laugh at the expense of the cockney bastards :)
 

ToDarrenIsToDo

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One thing that confuses me over this as, obviously, it's very much opinions and there's no way on earth everyone's going to agree - disagreeing is what humans do best - is why there is this constant comparison with "le N word" when it is absolutely apples and oranges.

That word was used specifically to disparage and dehumanise entire continents. It has a deep, deep rooted history in belittling based on nothing more than the colour of someone's skin, of cruel physical and mental abuse, torture etc.

From what I can work out, Yid is simply an insulting contraction of the word "Yiddish", with very little historical aggression or oppression behind it, being a phrase used by the Jewish community until it was adopted by Fascists, mostly because it was easy to chant? I mean, please, correct me if there's any deeper origin to it or if I've missed something in this comparison between Y and N, but I don't see the similarities and it feels a lot like the outrage from people like callers to Talksport here would probably not be half as loud if it was still just another word that Jews could use to dig at each other.

Is this more about cultural appropriation?

I am starting to be of the opinion that, in this rapidly biege-ing world, we need to look at this like drink driving and that the responsible thing to do is to accept that while we can play nice with it, others can't. We have to cater to the lowest common denominator. If we continue to belt it out then others will see it as a green light to use it in a derogatory fashion. We KNOW that there are too many knuckle draggers at football grounds to be able to use it sensibly or to not use this word - a word that they probably only know because we sing it - with malice or spiteful intent.

I'm a bit surprised that there has been no token uprising from the gay community for West Ham being called Irons, even as a bit of a laugh at the expense of the cockney bastards :)
That's exactly what it is mate, an opinion on how to resolve any issues surrounding it. It's sad that some feel awkward with, some feel fine with it and some use it for knuckle dragging ways but it's an issue and we all have our opinions on how it can find a resolution.

Personally I think censorship is a short term fox and leads to other problems that don't get dealt with and other potential avenues that are problematic. Some will see the resolution if the issue to be dropping the word completely. Each to their own that's why it's an issue that comes with debate and all we are doing is debating such issues.

Let's be honest if we all had the same opinion on everything there'd be nothing worth writing or reading about. It's a delicate one and I hope it gives resolved in the best way possible for everything concerned, whatever that decision to resolve it is.
 

Spurslove

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Honest the word bagel (and I live in Norf America) has never been used as a derogatory word as far as I know. Maybe it's the equivalent of Donut and that too is not a derogatory word (in fact I just made that up)
Actually the original spelling in the east end before the yanks got hold of it was biegel.
Cant wait for schmaltz herring to be the next anti semite buzz word I hate the stuff.
My old man, God rest him used to shovel tons of the stuff down his throat but it always made me retch and still does, just the thought of it.

Once we get to the stage where every word of Jewish origin is deemed to be derogatory towards Jews, or anti-semitic in any way, believe me, we are all fucked.

.
 

Led's Zeppelin

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One thing that confuses me over this as, obviously, it's very much opinions and there's no way on earth everyone's going to agree - disagreeing is what humans do best - is why there is this constant comparison with "le N word" when it is absolutely apples and oranges.

That word was used specifically to disparage and dehumanise entire continents. It has a deep, deep rooted history in belittling based on nothing more than the colour of someone's skin, of cruel physical and mental abuse, torture etc.


From what I can work out, Yid is simply an insulting contraction of the word "Yiddish", with very little historical aggression or oppression behind it, being a phrase used by the Jewish community until it was adopted by Fascists, mostly because it was easy to chant? I mean, please, correct me if there's any deeper origin to it or if I've missed something in this comparison between Y and N, but I don't see the similarities and it feels a lot like the outrage from people like callers to Talksport here would probably not be half as loud if it was still just another word that Jews could use to dig at each other.

Is this more about cultural appropriation?

I am starting to be of the opinion that, in this rapidly biege-ing world, we need to look at this like drink driving and that the responsible thing to do is to accept that while we can play nice with it, others can't. We have to cater to the lowest common denominator. If we continue to belt it out then others will see it as a green light to use it in a derogatory fashion. We KNOW that there are too many knuckle draggers at football grounds to be able to use it sensibly or to not use this word - a word that they probably only know because we sing it - with malice or spiteful intent.

I'm a bit surprised that there has been no token uprising from the gay community for West Ham being called Irons, even as a bit of a laugh at the expense of the cockney bastards :)
A slight side-issue perhaps, but actually the relationship between the origins of the words nigger and yid are remarkably similar. But it leads to an important point.

One is obviously a contraction of Yiddish, which is really just a Germanic form of "Jewish, (remember that J and Y are essentially the same latter in most languages, and the “d“ has always been part of it too, as in “Judaism”) while the other derives from the Southern States pronunciation of Negro, which simply means black person. Both may be seen as neutral descriptors, but both have been adopted as terms of hatred, but if anything, "Yid" is the one with the more originally offensive intent, since it has never been a respectful way of referring to a Jewish person, whereas negro has traditionally been a neutral term, and is still frequently used as such though generally out of favour now.

Anyway, I think it is absolutely apposite to compare the use of the two words. They have similar origins (with roots in ignorance) and were weaponised very early in their existence.

I think some younger people simply do not fully appreciate the venom and terror associated with the word Yid, and the deep offence it is capable of causing some, especially older people.


PS, there's also a parallel with the word "Paki" which is another insulting term even though plenty of people have claimed not to realise it. There are plenty of other examples. Ideally no one would want to use any of them.
 
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FibreOpticJesus

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It's not just a few 'delicate flowers' that don't like the word being used, it's a sizeable number of our own supporters:

"In December, the club released the results of a survey on the word, with more than 23,000 responses.
Nearly half of respondents wanted fans to abandon the chant or use it less, with 94% acknowledging it could be considered a racist term against a Jewish person.
But 33% of of respondents said they used the word "regularly" in a football context, while 12% also used it outside of football."

Personally I don't find it offensive, but if it's making our own fans uncomfortable then I don't think we can just dismiss it as a non-issue.
As I pointed out at the time this survey was open to non-Spurs supporters as well and therefore was open to abuse. I also had concerns over how the questions were written which could lead to misunderstanding. This type of survey is typical of all surveys in that they don’t give you the opportunity to respond in the way you would like. However, I think the response was poor considering the number of season ticket holders and members. By their lack of response does it mean they don’t care, do care or did the survey take too long and too complicated.
Surveys always make me laugh as when it comes to the crunch they are usually wrong. The silent majority always win eg Margret Thatcher (I didn’t vote for her comment and yet she was returned on three occasions) the EU referendum, Scottish Independence, the last election with 80 seat majority, Trump etc

In conclusion I think by the volume of people singing Yid Army etc there are a larger proportion of our support who are happy to use the words and songs than provided in the survey.
 

FibreOpticJesus

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All of the fans in our ground are on camera these days. Clubs make it very clear that that kind of behaviour won't be tolerated any more. If us and Chelsea and West ham, etc. made a joint statement before each game (maybe include it when sending tickets out) that this kind of behaviour would result in a stadium ban then I think it would have an impact. If you get the hissing then follow the example of the racism protocol by making stadium announcements. Then follow it up by identifying as many people as possible and banning them. We wouldn't put up with thousands of people making monkey noises, so why should we continue to turn a blind eye to this?
Yeah the cameras are that good that they fail to pick up the dudes in front of me smoking dope every game.....not complaining 😆
 

CowInAComa

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Every time I shout yid I get a little glow inside because I'm doing it to stand up for those who have been historically repressed and abused by that word.

But why stop at heroically appropriating the word yid as a force for good when so many minorities we can stand up for by chanting their historical derogative chants in an inclusive positive context?

Why stop at being absolute fucking heroes just for the Jewish community?
 

Ronwol196061

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Every time I shout yid I get a little glow inside because I'm doing it to stand up for those who have been historically repressed and abused by that word.

But why stop at heroically appropriating the word yid as a force for good when so many minorities we can stand up for by chanting their historical derogative chants in an inclusive positive context?

Why stop at being absolute fucking heroes just for the Jewish community?
and if you know your history....
 

daryl hannah

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PS, there's also a parallel with the word "Paki" which is another insulting term even though plenty of people have claimed not to realise it. There are plenty of other examples. Ideally no one would want to use any of them.
I feel unqualified to weigh-in on this subject as I am neither Jewish nor go to games all that frequently and so my experience of supporting Tottenham Hotspur is largely Y-word free.

However, this comparison to the derogatory nature of the use of the word Paki, perhaps gives more contextualisation to what we are dealing with than comparisons to the N-word, and subsequent reclamation of said word. To my knowledge, the word Paki was never reclaimed in the UK (?) (where the N-word was, to an extent, and represented culturally in film and music).

So I feel like an outsider to the arguments and can only say 'hateful use is clearly bad....' or 'reclamation of the word by the fans is good because...' but what I'm more clearly witnessing is another stick to beat Tottenham Hotspur fans with whilst the racism debate is being had in current media coverage. The present discourse on racism in football is topical because of the Rudiger investigation AND YET, is being had WITHOUT discussion of the Chelsea fans' behaviour - particularly regarding persistent hissing noises to represent the gas chambers - something you might argue is an actual hate crime.

I'd like to know why the conversation is being had WITHOUT this examination of the Chelsea fans' behaviour - Because it might just shed light on why it's important for Spurs fans' (Jewish or not), to reclaim/recuperate the word and 'fight back.'

Instead, we are left to argue amongst ourselves about the morals of our own fanbase's actions. If anyone has any bright ideas as to how to fight rival fan hostility in an alternative way, perhaps therein lies the answer (solutions similar to dealing with bullies, for example) - as once we've established that use of the Y-word offends a minority, an alternative and preferable way to fight back would likely be adopted by a reasonably intelligent Tottenham Hotspur fanbase.
 

Spurslove

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They brought in lip readers to try and find out if someone in the crowd had shouted something racist at Rudiger so I assume they could pick up hissing as well.
Specialist lip readers to identify who might be hissing by microscopically scrutinising the movements of people's lips in a crowd of thousands?

I can't be the only one to be horrified by that. It's deeply sinister and extremely worrying. What exactly are we becoming as a society if that's going on? Straight out of Orwell's 1984.
 

Ronwol196061

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Specialist lip readers to identify who might be hissing by microscopically scrutinising the movements of people's lips in a crowd of thousands?

I can't be the only one to be horrified by that. It's deeply sinister and extremely worrying. What exactly are we becoming as a society if that's going on? Straight out of Orwell's 1984.
The millions of cameras around the UK is the same situation but it's about intent and who controls it. I would say most people would agree the cameras play a good role in society not a bad one
 

Spurslove

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The millions of cameras around the UK is the same situation but it's about intent and who controls it. I would say most people would agree the cameras play a good role in society not a bad one
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the general concept of what you're saying, but I just think the idea of cameras and specialist lip readers zooming in on people's lips, trying to find traces of a word or a sound being made is like something out of George Orwell and it's not something I'm particularly comfortable with.

.
 

Ronwol196061

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I feel unqualified to weigh-in on this subject as I am neither Jewish nor go to games all that frequently and so my experience of supporting Tottenham Hotspur is largely Y-word free.

However, this comparison to the derogatory nature of the use of the word Paki, perhaps gives more contextualisation to what we are dealing with than comparisons to the N-word, and subsequent reclamation of said word. To my knowledge, the word Paki was never reclaimed in the UK (?) (where the N-word was, to an extent, and represented culturally in film and music).

So I feel like an outsider to the arguments and can only say 'hateful use is clearly bad....' or 'reclamation of the word by the fans is good because...' but what I'm more clearly witnessing is another stick to beat Tottenham Hotspur fans with whilst the racism debate is being had in current media coverage. The present discourse on racism in football is topical because of the Rudiger investigation AND YET, is being had WITHOUT discussion of the Chelsea fans' behaviour - particularly regarding persistent hissing noises to represent the gas chambers - something you might argue is an actual hate crime.

I'd like to know why the conversation is being had WITHOUT this examination of the Chelsea fans' behaviour - Because it might just shed light on why it's important for Spurs fans' (Jewish or not), to reclaim/recuperate the word and 'fight back.'

Instead, we are left to argue amongst ourselves about the morals of our own fanbase's actions. If anyone has any bright ideas as to how to fight rival fan hostility in an alternative way, perhaps therein lies the answer (solutions similar to dealing with bullies, for example) - as once we've established that use of the Y-word offends a minority, an alternative and preferable way to fight back would likely be adopted by a reasonably intelligent Tottenham Hotspur fanbase.
Maybe they consider Spurs fans use of the word more critical as we play 30 games in a season at home and Cheksea play one at the lane
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with the general concept of what you're saying, but I just think the idea of cameras and specialist lip readers zooming in on people's lips, trying to find traces of a word or a sound being made is like something out of George Orwell and it's not something I'm particularly comfortable with.

.
I dont disagree with that either. Sometimes there are necessary evils
But again its whether you trust the observers or not
 
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