The Y Word

Spurslove

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Just putting aside whether it's offensive or not for a minute, does everyone agree that if we stopped using the term it would be easier to prosecute opposition fans that tried to use it against us at games than it was twenty or thirty years ago?
'Prosecute' them how exactly? Seriously, how would you prosecute thousands of Chelsea or West Ham fans making hissing noises? What do you think about the clubs being sanctioned if their fans are guilty of blatant anti-semitism? It's a genuine question and I ask only because I'm not sure how it can be argued that a club is directly responsible for the behaviour of it's fans and I'm not comfortable with a club being docked points or fined for something which is almost impossible to control.

My last point, this entire nonsense is focused not one word, but one letter. Y. My idea would be to start calling ourselves 'Id Army' It sounds exactly the same but nobody could claim to be offended by it. (That was a joke by the way).

Really, I think we have far more important things to worry about in the world today, like the Coronavirus and Chelsea in a Champions League place above us. We have our OED validation for the Yid Army and that's a great leap forward in my view.

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Led's Zeppelin

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Some people seem to overlook the fact that “Yid” and it’s derivatives is different from swearing, for example.

It’s a specific racist term of abuse with a horrendous history and is still used in a threatening way, and many people find it deeply offensive and even frightening.

The fact that it has been adopted by Spurs supporters as a defensive term of solidarity and is not intended to be offensive but quite the opposite, even endearing as some have said, demonstrates the enduring potency of the word. So if people are made more than just uncomfortable by hearing it at their own football club, shouldn’t we respect their views rather than dismiss them as “PC brigade nonsense” or the like?

Most people don’t regularly tell their grand-parents to FUCK OFF to their faces. It’s out of respect, not because of what the word means but how it affects the people who hear it.

I know we don’t use Yiddo as a slur, but I wouldn’t use it to someone’s face if they asked me not to. So why do it in a crowd?

I used to use it a lot at football. I don’t anymore because I‘ve been asked not to by people it upsets, and I see no reason to upset them further.
 

dontcallme

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Some people seem to overlook the fact that “Yid” and it’s derivatives is different from swearing, for example.

It’s a specific racist term of abuse with a horrendous history and is still used in a threatening way, and many people find it deeply offensive and even frightening.

The fact that it has been adopted by Spurs supporters as a defensive term of solidarity and is not intended to be offensive but quite the opposite, even endearing as some have said, demonstrates the enduring potency of the word. So if people are made more than just uncomfortable by hearing it at their own football club, shouldn’t we respect their views rather than dismiss them as “PC brigade nonsense” or the like?

Most people don’t regularly tell their grand-parents to FUCK OFF to their faces. It’s out of respect, not because of what the word means but how it affects the people who hear it.

I know we don’t use Yiddo as a slur, but I wouldn’t use it to someone’s face if they asked me not to. So why do it in a crowd?

I used to use it a lot at football. I don’t anymore because I‘ve been asked not to by people it upsets, and I see no reason to upset them further.
Great post. It is a pretty unique situation.

David Baddiel and others has put forward that you wouldn't use the term "n word army" and then say you are reclaiming the word.

But the problem is that the word Yid is not the same as this term and has a very different history. I can't think of any other example of a football club, or similar group, using a similar term in the name of putting us altogether to fight against people racially abusing a section of their group.

Misframing the argument is never helpful, but then neither is writing off any issue as "PC gone mad." The moment anyone uses the term PC gone mad I automatically think that person is a moron.

David Baddiel and others are against its usage and I respect that. The editor of the Jewish Chronicle thinks it's fantastic that we use the term and I respect that. So as a non-Jew it is hard for me to determine correct usage as there is no dominant opinion within Jewish groups as to whether our usage is offensive or not.

But we can't expect people not used to our usage to understand the history of how we use the term. A lot of people have said hearing a large group of football fans makes them very uneasy.

So for me I don't sing songs with the term anymore. I kind of feel that our mission to fight back against the racists in the 50s to 80s has essentially been done. We have ensured our Jewish fanbase is very much a part of our group.

Probably time to stop using the term but I respect if others want to keep using it.
 

Led's Zeppelin

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For clarity, I think it's correct to include it in the OED. And I'm not in favour of banning it. In fact I'm strongly opposed to banning any words.

But just because something isn't illegal or banned doesn't mean it's OK to do it in all circumstances.

It seems perverse to me that in trying to show solidarity and defend people who have been abused and upset by the word "Yid" in the past, they are the very people we upset when we continue to use it, and yet on we go regardless.

It's as if we don't really care whether it hurts them or not. Which in the end makes a bit of a nonsense of the "solidarity" argument, even though that clearly isn't the intent.
 

southlondonyiddo

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As a mostly non practicing Jew (not sure if that makes any difference) I’ve always been proud that we reclaimed the word from certain scum sections of opposing supporters

My mum & dad were always uncomfortable with the term and I’m sure my grandparents would have been horrified by it. Back in the old east end days the term was only ever used as the most offensive word you could use against someone Jewish

For me it brought this issue into the open which can only be a good thing and calling out any and all forms of racism is the right thing to do

The whole Baddiel thing really angered me and can’t help but think he was a bit of an apologist for a large minority of his clubs fan base

I don’t think the word or chants used in a racist way will ever stop and I hope we continue to keep calling it out in our own way

Im a fourth generation Tottenham supporter and have always been proud of our association of standing against this but it’s still a tricky issue and I’m not sure that the OED getting involved has made things any easier.

If anything they may well have muddied the waters still further!
 

nailsy

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'Prosecute' them how exactly? Seriously, how would you prosecute thousands of Chelsea or West Ham fans making hissing noises? What do you think about the clubs being sanctioned if their fans are guilty of blatant anti-semitism? It's a genuine question and I ask only because I'm not sure how it can be argued that a club is directly responsible for the behaviour of it's fans and I'm not comfortable with a club being docked points or fined for something which is almost impossible to control.

My last point, this entire nonsense is focused not one word, but one letter. Y. My idea would be to start calling ourselves 'Id Army' It sounds exactly the same but nobody could claim to be offended by it. (That was a joke by the way).

Really, I think we have far more important things to worry about in the world today, like the Coronavirus and Chelsea in a Champions League place above us. We have our OED validation for the Yid Army and that's a great leap forward in my view.

.
All of the fans in our ground are on camera these days. Clubs make it very clear that that kind of behaviour won't be tolerated any more. If us and Chelsea and West ham, etc. made a joint statement before each game (maybe include it when sending tickets out) that this kind of behaviour would result in a stadium ban then I think it would have an impact. If you get the hissing then follow the example of the racism protocol by making stadium announcements. Then follow it up by identifying as many people as possible and banning them. We wouldn't put up with thousands of people making monkey noises, so why should we continue to turn a blind eye to this?
 

Spurslove

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Some people seem to overlook the fact that “Yid” and it’s derivatives is different from swearing, for example.

It’s a specific racist term of abuse with a horrendous history and is still used in a threatening way, and many people find it deeply offensive and even frightening.

The fact that it has been adopted by Spurs supporters as a defensive term of solidarity and is not intended to be offensive but quite the opposite, even endearing as some have said, demonstrates the enduring potency of the word. So if people are made more than just uncomfortable by hearing it at their own football club, shouldn’t we respect their views rather than dismiss them as “PC brigade nonsense” or the like?

Most people don’t regularly tell their grand-parents to FUCK OFF to their faces. It’s out of respect, not because of what the word means but how it affects the people who hear it.

I know we don’t use Yiddo as a slur, but I wouldn’t use it to someone’s face if they asked me not to. So why do it in a crowd?

I used to use it a lot at football. I don’t anymore because I‘ve been asked not to by people it upsets, and I see no reason to upset them further.
Fair do's, we each have to make our own life choices and nobody is ever going to force you to use that word, so if it makes you feel uncomfortable in any way, don't use it, that's fine. The only thing I would add is, it's beyond anyone's remit to admonish anyone else for choosing to use it in the manner in which we do. As I say, it's a free choice we can all make and should be regarded as such.
.
 

Spurslove

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All of the fans in our ground are on camera these days. Clubs make it very clear that that kind of behaviour won't be tolerated any more. If us and Chelsea and West ham, etc. made a joint statement before each game (maybe include it when sending tickets out) that this kind of behaviour would result in a stadium ban then I think it would have an impact. If you get the hissing then follow the example of the racism protocol by making stadium announcements. Then follow it up by identifying as many people as possible and banning them. We wouldn't put up with thousands of people making monkey noises, so why should we continue to turn a blind eye to this?
Can CCTV cameras pick up which individuals are hissing?

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nailsy

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Can CCTV cameras pick up which individuals are hissing?

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They brought in lip readers to try and find out if someone in the crowd had shouted something racist at Rudiger so I assume they could pick up hissing as well.
 

Led's Zeppelin

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Fair do's, we each have to make our own life choices and nobody is ever going to force you to use that word, so if it makes you feel uncomfortable in any way, don't use it, that's fine. The only thing I would add is, it's beyond anyone's remit to admonish anyone else for choosing to use it in the manner in which we do. As I say, it's a free choice we can all make and should be regarded as such.
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To repeat myself, I've said it shouldn't be banned.

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't be free to "admonish" people who we believe are hurting people.

I appreciate your argument, but if I were to repeatedly shout "nice tits" at your mother, wife or daughter, I expect you'd feel that you were within your rights to admonish me, (and no doubt more than just admonish!) even if I explained that I saw it as a term of endearment.
 

Vinny_Sammways_left_peg

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I feel pretty bitter how hard both Baddiel's have been pushing this all things considered.

I find the hypocritical nature of some those driving this too much to take.

Spurs have taken some fearful stick in the last 18 months on this front and more recently with the Antonio Rudiger situation as well and for all intents and purposes we're in the wrong as a club/support.

Nothing wrong with plenty of open dialogue, plenty of self exploration when it comes to looking at the club/support itself but not keen of all this being played out among a media that is driven by some in power with questionable historys/back grounds themselves.
 

Led's Zeppelin

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I feel pretty bitter how hard both Baddiel's have been pushing this all things considered.

I find the hypocritical nature of some those driving this too much to take.

Spurs have taken some fearful stick in the last 18 months on this front and more recently with the Antonio Rudiger situation as well and for all intents and purposes we're in the wrong as a club/support.

Nothing wrong with plenty of open dialogue, plenty of self exploration when it comes to looking at the club/support itself but not keen of all this being played out among a media that is driven by some in power with questionable historys/back grounds themselves.
Agreed.

I have to say that if anyone on the outside is going to try to criticise us for offensive behaviour, anyone connected with Chelsea Football Club should be last in the queue, and should have more important and relevant issues to deal with very much closer to home.
 

nailsy

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Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Sssssssssssssssssssssss

Yeah good luck with that!
I'm not sure why it would be that hard. Your mouth makes a certain shape when you make that sound and you're obviously doing it for a prolonged period of time. It's not like when you're talking and you mouth is constantly moving.

I feel pretty bitter how hard both Baddiel's have been pushing this all things considered.

I find the hypocritical nature of some those driving this too much to take.

Spurs have taken some fearful stick in the last 18 months on this front and more recently with the Antonio Rudiger situation as well and for all intents and purposes we're in the wrong as a club/support.

Nothing wrong with plenty of open dialogue, plenty of self exploration when it comes to looking at the club/support itself but not keen of all this being played out among a media that is driven by some in power with questionable historys/back grounds themselves.
I thought the survey the club did recently was really well done. It will be interesting to see where they go with it in the future. I'm sure there was a separate thread for it, but I can't find it anywhere.
 

CowInAComa

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Is it possible to enjoy football or watching spurs or even live a full and happy life without being about to shout yid?

I don't know what I will do if I can't shout this word over and over. It's the only reason I support spurs. I don't even like football.
 

whitelightwhiteheat

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I would take David Baddiel a lot more seriously if he were to acknowledge the fact that Chelsea fans are one of the most racist football clubs in world football. In the past I queried him about it (politely) on Twitter and he just blocked me. I can't respect a man who doesn't want to engage in a conversation, and just wants to put their view forward as being the only thing that's correct.
 

degoose

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I would take David Baddiel a lot more seriously if he were to acknowledge the fact that Chelsea fans are one of the most racist football clubs in world football. In the past I queried him about it (politely) on Twitter and he just blocked me. I can't respect a man who doesn't want to engage in a conversation, and just wants to put their view forward as being the only thing that's correct.
Same here about baddiel. Anytime i even see a new news story about spurs singing yid or yiddo and baddiel is linked in the story for his input i just don't bother. He is a huge hypocrite and doesn't realise it or at least acknowledges it in public, probably because that would make him look stupid.
 

Ronwol196061

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Many excellent posts about this and all of them valid. It is a little complicated but glad we can air out some reasonable and rational views on this
 

Gassin's finest

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I would take David Baddiel a lot more seriously if he were to acknowledge the fact that Chelsea fans are one of the most racist football clubs in world football. In the past I queried him about it (politely) on Twitter and he just blocked me. I can't respect a man who doesn't want to engage in a conversation, and just wants to put their view forward as being the only thing that's correct.
I would maybe take Baddiel seriously if he were even a genuine football fan, and wasn't just pretending to be one because he hosted a comedy football show back in the 90s.
 

Dov67

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As an observant and practicing Jew, I have always felt our adopting the term yid army was one of the most powerful and profound messages of anti racism in football, and it fills me with joy and pride every time I hear it reverberating around the ground.

nothing and nobody will ever make me stop singing it.

Even if we put aside the arguments for and against from inside the club and outside, does anyone seriously believe there is one chance in a billion of our fans ever stopping singing it, so ingrained as it is in our identify for generations ? There’s more chance of me switching allegiance to Chelsea than our fans giving up our identity

Secondly, since that **** baddiel started this (because he’s ashamed of his own club and needs to deflect, what has happened? It’s got worse from the likes of Chelsea and West Ham, the racist abuse has intensified and our fans have become justifiably more defiant.

So in conclusion this has zero chance of success and has increased the anti Semitic abuse we find ourselves on the receiving end of.

Finally change the title of this thread. For crying out loud, YID is not a profanity, it is not a racist word any more than Muslim or Jew is, depending on the content and/or intent.
 
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