The Y Word

Ronwol196061

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It's really a conundrum for Jewish Tottenham supporters. I think most have a warm feeling about the word how it relates to Tottenham but it also opens up the possibility for others to use it negatively. Levy I'm sure would be happy if the word was used without ramifications but their are. Anti semitism has been around long before 1882
 

marc aron

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Anti Semitism isn’t going to go away or even decrease because Tottenham hotspur football club and its supporters stop saying Yid. To be honest, it’s disingenuous to say it would have any impact at all because anti Semitism is a centuries old evil that is rooted in much more than the word “Yid”. baddiel and Dave rich attempt to portray themselves as voices for the Jewish community when the community is as diverse in opinion as any other. You cannot speak on behalf of a community that is not monolithic. The word being reclaimed by thousands and thousands of Jews and non Jews is a message of defiance that anti semites won’t define us (im Jewish), we aren’t weak or voiceless anymore. I would be devastated if there were actions taken to prevent spurs supporters from calling ourselves Yids or Yid Army. Don’t allow the people who use the word for bad to win.
 

Ronwol196061

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Anti Semitism isn’t going to go away or even decrease because Tottenham hotspur football club and its supporters stop saying Yid. To be honest, it’s disingenuous to say it would have any impact at all because anti Semitism is a centuries old evil that is rooted in much more than the word “Yid”. baddiel and Dave rich attempt to portray themselves as voices for the Jewish community when the community is as diverse in opinion as any other. You cannot speak on behalf of a community that is not monolithic. The word being reclaimed by thousands and thousands of Jews and non Jews is a message of defiance that anti semites won’t define us (im Jewish), we aren’t weak or voiceless anymore. I would be devastated if there were actions taken to prevent spurs supporters from calling ourselves Yids or Yid Army. Don’t allow the people who use the word for bad to win.
I like your post but I do see both sides of this.
The fact is the word will be defended by most Spurs fans but still there are not so many that can grasp the depth of the ramifications or maybe even care.
There is a history there.
It's a difficult one as I love the term
 

Saoirse

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I never even considered that the Yid chants helpfully weed out the racist element among us too, but it's certainly another positive. If Chelsea's a bit upmarket for you, how about West Ham? Salt of the earth good English cockneys, hate Jews, and lack class.
 

hellava_tough

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So is the argument that if we use the word 'Yid' in an affectionate or defiant way, then other fans might use the same word in an abusive way?

If that is the case, then who cares? Those sorts of people are still going to find language to express their rivalry/distaste/hatred of our club. Suppressing a word (which incidentally was never originally offensive in nature) is neither here nor there.
 

daveduvet

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Anti Semitism isn’t going to go away or even decrease because Tottenham hotspur football club and its supporters stop saying Yid. To be honest, it’s disingenuous to say it would have any impact at all because anti Semitism is a centuries old evil that is rooted in much more than the word “Yid”. baddiel and Dave rich attempt to portray themselves as voices for the Jewish community when the community is as diverse in opinion as any other. You cannot speak on behalf of a community that is not monolithic. The word being reclaimed by thousands and thousands of Jews and non Jews is a message of defiance that anti semites won’t define us (im Jewish), we aren’t weak or voiceless anymore. I would be devastated if there were actions taken to prevent spurs supporters from calling ourselves Yids or Yid Army. Don’t allow the people who use the word for bad to win.
Marc, I agree. I’m not Jewish but have plenty of friends that are. I conversed with a fellow (Jewish) spurs supporter just now; he happens to be married to a woman of Jamaican heritage. He equated the “positive” subversion and (Re)ownership of the word ‘yid’ and ‘nigger’ from those who hurl the abuse; thus diluting the vitriol - it’s the same psychology of the bully and the bullied: neutralise the bully’s ammunition and they end up the fool.
Additionally, given that - for the sake of argument - each club is a corporation, those clubs that have Jewish owners could/would seek to weaken the opposing corporations by any means necessary (Malcolm) , in order to promote their (club) corporation. Chelski and Wet Spam spring to mind. My overriding argument is that we adhere to our traditionally Jewish roots and sing loud & proud:’ we’re yids, and we know we are’. Our players are yiddos.
 

Ronwol196061

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So is the argument that if we use the word 'Yid' in an affectionate or defiant way, then other fans might use the same word in an abusive way?

If that is the case, then who cares? Those sorts of people are still going to find language to express their rivalry/distaste/hatred of our club. Suppressing a word (which incidentally was never originally offensive in nature) is neither here nor there.

This is true without a doubt when it comes to the hate if the club.
When someone talks racist about a Spurs player it's also the hate for the club
But in both cases more often than not it's not only that
 

Phomesy

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Marc, I agree. I’m not Jewish but have plenty of friends that are. I conversed with a fellow (Jewish) spurs supporter just now; he happens to be married to a woman of Jamaican heritage. He equated the “positive” subversion and (Re)ownership of the word ‘yid’ and ‘nigger’ from those who hurl the abuse; thus diluting the vitriol - it’s the same psychology of the bully and the bullied: neutralise the bully’s ammunition and they end up the fool.
Additionally, given that - for the sake of argument - each club is a corporation, those clubs that have Jewish owners could/would seek to weaken the opposing corporations by any means necessary (Malcolm) , in order to promote their (club) corporation. Chelski and Wet Spam spring to mind. My overriding argument is that we adhere to our traditionally Jewish roots and sing loud & proud:’ we’re yids, and we know we are’. Our players are yiddos.
I think this matches how I feel. If the Jewish Spurs community were to express disquiet with the chanting I’d stop instantly. And for non Spurs Jews who do feel disquiet (like David Baddiel who I believe is genuine in his argument - I just don’t necessarily agree with it) all I can say is I’d never dream of using the term outside of this specific footballing Spurs camaraderie context and would hope all other people - Spurs or not - would be the same.
 

wrd

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Everytime one of these debates come up in life, I always believe in the context of which a word is used but I see people argue against that and I start to feel bad that maybe I am bias, maybe I'm being a bigot by sticking to my belief in intent of a word vs how it makes people feel and I'm part of the problem. Then every single time the person on the other side either shows their true colours or shows that they only care when it affects them and I feel vindicated once more in my beliefs.
 
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Metalhead

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Everytime one of these debates come up in life, I always believe in the context of which a word is used but I see people argue against that and I start to feel bad that maybe I am bias, maybe I'm being a bigot by sticking to my belief in intent of a word vs how it makes people feel and I'm part of the problem. Then every single time the person on the other side either shows their true colours or shows that they only care when it affects them and I feel vindicated once more in my beliefs.
I agree with you - for me it is context and intent.
 

Joshua shepherd

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Took my 7 year old nephew to his first game on Saturday and I have to say it’s far easier for me to explain why we sing Yidooo at one of our own than it is to explain why the bloke behind calls Eriksen all manor of abusive words.

The truth is the intent is the most important thing and for me I’m far nose offended at the F’s and C’s than singing the thing I like most is being a yid.
 

Navin R Johnson

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Took my 7 year old nephew to his first game on Saturday and I have to say it’s far easier for me to explain why we sing Yidooo at one of our own than it is to explain why the bloke behind calls Eriksen all manor of abusive words.

The truth is the intent is the most important thing and for me I’m far nose offended at the F’s and C’s than singing the thing I like most is being a yid.
My son had a ticket in The Paxton from the age of seven upwards (he's twenty four now), I'm a firm believer that if you teach a child the difference between right and wrong they learn to filter out the F's & C's without coming to any harm.
 

LeSoupeKitchen

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I don’t want to hijack a really important debate of recent weeks but just found a comment really interesting in the Guardian Football Weekly pod on racism:

I can’t remember the exact words but it was something like “this is the first time England fans have chanted in unison against racism and it’s a watershed moment”. There was also a general theme that racism is a massive problem at the moment (obviously).

It just struck a note as also in 2019 we’re being given the following message:

“Hey you lot who have been chanting in unison against anti-semitism for the best part of 50-years – it’s time to stop. The meaning behind it is a throwback to a more uncivilised time and is no longer necessary.”

I know anti-semitism isn't the issue at the moment and don't want to dilute the debate but just struck me as crazy how messed up everything is that such mixed messages are being sent out.
 

Dougal

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I don’t want to hijack a really important debate of recent weeks but just found a comment really interesting in the Guardian Football Weekly pod on racism:

I can’t remember the exact words but it was something like “this is the first time England fans have chanted in unison against racism and it’s a watershed moment”. There was also a general theme that racism is a massive problem at the moment (obviously).

It just struck a note as also in 2019 we’re being given the following message:

“Hey you lot who have been chanting in unison against anti-semitism for the best part of 50-years – it’s time to stop. The meaning behind it is a throwback to a more uncivilised time and is no longer necessary.”

I know anti-semitism isn't the issue at the moment and don't want to dilute the debate but just struck me as crazy how messed up everything is that such mixed messages are being sent out.
England fans didn’t chant in unison against racism. They chanted against Bulgaria. ‘Bloody foreigners. Coming over here, errr... over there, stealing our racism...’, before heading back to the London Stadium and Stamford Bridge.
 

Ronwol196061

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I don’t want to hijack a really important debate of recent weeks but just found a comment really interesting in the Guardian Football Weekly pod on racism:

I can’t remember the exact words but it was something like “this is the first time England fans have chanted in unison against racism and it’s a watershed moment”. There was also a general theme that racism is a massive problem at the moment (obviously).

It just struck a note as also in 2019 we’re being given the following message:

“Hey you lot who have been chanting in unison against anti-semitism for the best part of 50-years – it’s time to stop. The meaning behind it is a throwback to a more uncivilised time and is no longer necessary.”

I know anti-semitism isn't the issue at the moment and don't want to dilute the debate but just struck me as crazy how messed up everything is that such mixed messages are being sent out.

It's an interesting debate. As a jew and a yid I am torn with the word.
When we started using it in reference to Tottenham it was great,but I understand the problem it's no different than saying an iffy Jewish joke.Its ok between jews to laugh about ourselves but not for others and it's obvious why.
It's the same thing in a way and a shame but I'm with whatever is reasonable with looking at all sides of that issue
 

dontcallme

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I don’t want to hijack a really important debate of recent weeks but just found a comment really interesting in the Guardian Football Weekly pod on racism:

I can’t remember the exact words but it was something like “this is the first time England fans have chanted in unison against racism and it’s a watershed moment”. There was also a general theme that racism is a massive problem at the moment (obviously).

It just struck a note as also in 2019 we’re being given the following message:

“Hey you lot who have been chanting in unison against anti-semitism for the best part of 50-years – it’s time to stop. The meaning behind it is a throwback to a more uncivilised time and is no longer necessary.”

I know anti-semitism isn't the issue at the moment and don't want to dilute the debate but just struck me as crazy how messed up everything is that such mixed messages are being sent out.
I think the debate has been done to death.

It is important to know the history of the usage of a term like this. If people think the term should no longer be used, is not ours to reclaim or whatever then fine. They can have the view. But intent is important in anything. We clearly have no intent in being racist when using the word and the first usage by us was in protecting a group against racism. So people against use of the word not acknowledging that weakens their argument.

In just the last month we have witnessed extraordinary levels of racism in an international game between England and Bulgaria. Then a game being called off between Yeovil and Haringey.

So we still have fans fromdifferent countries being openly racist. There has at least been some punishments being handed out. The Bulgarian manager was fired and a few arrests were made. I believe at least two fans from the Haringey vs Yeovil game were arrested too.

So racism is still rife and the authorities need to do a lot more in terms of punishment.

Jus feel like the Y Word argument is the least of the racism issues currently present.
 
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England fans didn’t chant in unison against racism. They chanted against Bulgaria. ‘Bloody foreigners. Coming over here, errr... over there, stealing our racism...’, before heading back to the London Stadium and Stamford Bridge.
And Yeovil Town by the sounds of it.
 
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