The VAR Thread

'O Zio

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Some of the pundit criticism of VAR is starting to verge on Luddite stuff. You’d think goals had never been disallowed in the history of football before.
Agree. The thing that winds me up the most is that the same people moaning about VAR are the same ones who absolutely crucify the ref every time he gets a decision wrong. If you don't want VAR then you can't complain when refs regularly get decisions wrong. Holding them to the standards of someone who's seen a replay, but not allowing them to see a replay themselves is just ridiculous but that's what was happening, hence why VAR has been introduced.
 

jamesinashby

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I was watching a discussion on VAR and they said,the EPL had adopted a different system to all the other European countries. Apparently with them the VAR ref is only an assistant. They ask the game ref to look at the slo mo shots from different angles of the game he decides whether to stick or change his decision. In the EPL, when the game ref makes a decision, the VAR ref takes the decision and the game ref gets no say in the matter.
If this correct, I think it is a bad system. Any decision taken is subjective ie, how the ref taking the final decision sees it, be it the game ref or VAR ref. I feel we have to do the same as the other countries. The VAR ref is only there to alert the game ref he may have got it wrong and to check for himself and to either let it stand or reverse it.
I know this slows the game down but it should reduce the arguments that arise when the TV Shots we see indicate the VAR refs appeared to have got it wrong.
In four games I saw, the ref awarded a penalty with the VAR reversing his decision. The 4 games included Wolves, City, Utd and Spurs and all the pundits including 2 retired refs watching the TV replays agreed if the game refs had seen the video shots they would have let the penalty decisions stand. In all games the result would have been different if the penalty was scored. I certainly think so with the Kane incident in the Newcastle game.
The other point that was raised (if true) is that British refs couldn't ref games in Europe because the EPL plays to a different system.
Can anyone else confirm whether the refs inn the EPL have recourse to checking a video?

COYS
 

worcestersauce

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Literally just seen a replay of the Kane penalty appeal and VAR or no VAR the referee fucked up, he got it wrong. I guess you have to ask if there is a natural reluctance by the var referee to override his colleague's decision, and I mean it, they have to ask that question because if it is the case VAR is worthless.
 

WalkerboyUK

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I was watching a discussion on VAR and they said,the EPL had adopted a different system to all the other European countries. Apparently with them the VAR ref is only an assistant. They ask the game ref to look at the slo mo shots from different angles of the game he decides whether to stick or change his decision. In the EPL, when the game ref makes a decision, the VAR ref takes the decision and the game ref gets no say in the matter.
If this correct, I think it is a bad system. Any decision taken is subjective ie, how the ref taking the final decision sees it, be it the game ref or VAR ref. I feel we have to do the same as the other countries. The VAR ref is only there to alert the game ref he may have got it wrong and to check for himself and to either let it stand or reverse it.
I know this slows the game down but it should reduce the arguments that arise when the TV Shots we see indicate the VAR refs appeared to have got it wrong.
In four games I saw, the ref awarded a penalty with the VAR reversing his decision. The 4 games included Wolves, City, Utd and Spurs and all the pundits including 2 retired refs watching the TV replays agreed if the game refs had seen the video shots they would have let the penalty decisions stand. In all games the result would have been different if the penalty was scored. I certainly think so with the Kane incident in the Newcastle game.
The other point that was raised (if true) is that British refs couldn't ref games in Europe because the EPL plays to a different system.
Can anyone else confirm whether the refs inn the EPL have recourse to checking a video?

COYS
Pretty sure that isn't the case and is why the Lamela foul against City wasn't given after VAR review.
My understanding is that VAR will advise the referee if they think the decision is incorrect, but if the referee says he saw the incident then his decision stands (unless he views on monitor and changes mind).
 

'O Zio

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I was watching a discussion on VAR and they said,the EPL had adopted a different system to all the other European countries. Apparently with them the VAR ref is only an assistant. They ask the game ref to look at the slo mo shots from different angles of the game he decides whether to stick or change his decision. In the EPL, when the game ref makes a decision, the VAR ref takes the decision and the game ref gets no say in the matter.
Admitedly I'm no expert either but that's not my understanding of it. As far as I understand, the VAR checks for mistakes by the ref and tell him what they see and if they think it's potentially a mistake they'll say something like "You might want to have a look at that one again" but then the ref can either take their word for it and overturn his decision OR go over to the sideline and have a look himself OR just overrule the VAR and say he's happy with his original decision. The final call is still made by the ref on the pitch as far as I understand. They have said thouh that they're keen for refs to go over to have a look themselves as little as possible because it causes too long a stoppage, so unless they're realy not sure, they're not meant to do that
 

Shadydan

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Admitedly I'm no expert either but that's not my understanding of it. As far as I understand, the VAR checks for mistakes by the ref and tell him what they see and if they think it's potentially a mistake they'll say something like "You might want to have a look at that one again" but then the ref can either take their word for it and overturn his decision OR go over to the sideline and have a look himself OR just overrule the VAR and say he's happy with his original decision. The final call is still made by the ref on the pitch as far as I understand. They have said thouh that they're keen for refs to go over to have a look themselves as little as possible because it causes too long a stoppage, so unless they're realy not sure, they're not meant to do that
How do they have a look at the incident if there's no TV screen at the side to show them I wonder?
 

'O Zio

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How do they have a look at the incident if there's no TV screen at the side to show them I wonder?
I assume there is isn't there? I don't think anyone's done it yet in the PL.

EDIT: Apparently there is definitely a screen for the ref in the so/called referee review area. But like I say, the PL are discouraging refs from using it unless absolutely necessary
 

'O Zio

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I heard that they did away with the TV's as they don't want to slow the game down, dunno.
Nah they definitely have them, I just double-checked, but they've been specifically told it's only as an absolute last resort. So nobody has done it yet in the PL as far as I can remember
 

MK Yid

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Admitedly I'm no expert either but that's not my understanding of it. As far as I understand, the VAR checks for mistakes by the ref and tell him what they see and if they think it's potentially a mistake they'll say something like "You might want to have a look at that one again" but then the ref can either take their word for it and overturn his decision OR go over to the sideline and have a look himself OR just overrule the VAR and say he's happy with his original decision. The final call is still made by the ref on the pitch as far as I understand. They have said thouh that they're keen for refs to go over to have a look themselves as little as possible because it causes too long a stoppage, so unless they're realy not sure, they're not meant to do that

Not quite.
The protocol we have adopted over here is that the VAR will ask the referee what has he seen, he will not advise the referee what he believes the decision should be at that stage.
If the pictures back that up the referees viewpoint as being even slightly correct, and in subjective calls, they almost always will be, that is the end of the conversation, the referee is deemed to have seen it, and review is over.
It is only if it becomes clear to the VAR that the referee has totally misread the situation that he will advise the referee that he may have made a mistake, and these will really be factual situations.
Yes I can confirm there are monitors available for the referee, the protocol set though makes it highly doubtful they will be used.

Really think we missed a trick with VAR. We were late to the party and should have learned from other mistakes, we do seem to have buried our head in the sand though, and have almost adopted the worst possible system.
At the moment VAR is effectively only being used to basically rule out goals.
 

'O Zio

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Not quite.
The protocol we have adopted over here is that the VAR will ask the referee what has he seen, he will not advise the referee what he believes the decision should be at that stage.
If the pictures back that up the referees viewpoint as being even slightly correct, and in subjective calls, they almost always will be, that is the end of the conversation, the referee is deemed to have seen it, and review is over.
It is only if it becomes clear to the VAR that the referee has totally misread the situation that he will advise the referee that he may have made a mistake, and these will really be factual situations.
Yes I can confirm there are monitors available for the referee, the protocol set though makes it highly doubtful they will be used.

Really think we missed a trick with VAR. We were late to the party and should have learned from other mistakes, we do seem to have buried our head in the sand though, and have almost adopted the worst possible system.
At the moment VAR is effectively only being used to basically rule out goals.
Cheers for the explanation mate.

As for it being the worst system, I'm not so sure. I know it's a personal thing, but I'd rather VAR be used sparingly so the current PL system is miles better than whatever the system they were using in the cups last season was. That game away to Rochdale being a prime example of what nobody wants i.e. everyone hanging around every 5 minutes for the umpteenth review.

I've said it earlier in the thread but most of the VAR problems that we're had in the PL so far have been more to do with how impractical the rules are rather than the actual VAR system being wrong. VAR has just highlighted how daft the handball rule is in particular, but also offide to a certain extent as well.
 

MK Yid

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Cheers for the explanation mate.

As for it being the worst system, I'm not so sure. I know it's a personal thing, but I'd rather VAR be used sparingly so the current PL system is miles better than whatever the system they were using in the cups last season was. That game away to Rochdale being a prime example of what nobody wants i.e. everyone hanging around every 5 minutes for the umpteenth review.

I've said it earlier in the thread but most of the VAR problems that we're had in the PL so far have been more to do with how impractical the rules are rather than the actual VAR system being wrong. VAR has just highlighted how daft the handball rule is in particular, but also offide to a certain extent as well.
Totally agree. The technology is not good enough to decide if a player is offside by up to 20cm, calculations around the frame rates and speed of players show this, so to have a goal ruled offside as being factual by 1cm in the Man City v. West Ham game is just an error by VAR in my view, but PGMOL just don't see it that way. Would much prefer where if it is too tight to be certain, then on-field decision should stand.
Also agree the handball law change is poor, the goalscorer I agree should not be able to use his hand/arm, but an accidental handball in the build-up that wouldn't be given against a defender, should not be.
 

'O Zio

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Would much prefer where if it is too tight to be certain, then on-field decision should stand.
Definitely. That's how all video replay things seem to work in every other sport I've seen using it so I don't get why they don't have that here. These marginal offsides are often not clear-cut enough to overule the on-field decision IMO.
 

Thewobbler

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https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11800516/ref-watch-jack-grealish-harry-kane-and-callum-mcgregor-decisions-analysed-by-dermot-gallagher

So on ref watch:

INCIDENT: The ball appears to hit Isaac Hayden's hand moments before Fabian Schar scores to equalise for Newcastle, which goes unnoticed by the referee or VAR

VERDICT: Wrong call.

DERMOT SAYS: "It didn't get picked up. Whether that's because they were trying to keep the game flowing and do it as quickly as possible, I don't know.

LOL.

INCIDENT: Harry Kane goes down under a challenge from Sokratis in the final minute in the Arsenal penalty area, but the referee and VAR both decide against giving a spot-kick.

VERDICT: Right call.

DERMOT SAYS: "For me, definitely not a penalty. If you look, he steps across him, takes his ground, sees Sokratis and goes into him. I thought Martin Atkinson not only refereed a fantastic game in a good manner, but he got this absolutely right.

"There's contact there, we don't not wanting too many yellows when contact's made but I think it's not a penalty, that's the key issue."



INCIDENT: Youri Tielemans appears to stamp on Callum Wilson, but after a VAR review he is given a yellow card

VERDICT: Correctly handled based on what the referee saw.

DERMOT SAYS: "It doesn't hit the threshold, the bar is set very high. What shows it's a red card for me, some people I've spoken to say it isn't, the first clip you see, the same angle the referee sees, it doesn't look a red card. During play it didn't look a red.

"I think the threshold has got to be that everyone's going to go, 'yeah we're in that camp'."
 

MK Yid

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https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11800516/ref-watch-jack-grealish-harry-kane-and-callum-mcgregor-decisions-analysed-by-dermot-gallagher

So on ref watch:


INCIDENT: Harry Kane goes down under a challenge from Sokratis in the final minute in the Arsenal penalty area, but the referee and VAR both decide against giving a spot-kick.

VERDICT: Right call.

DERMOT SAYS: "For me, definitely not a penalty. If you look, he steps across him, takes his ground, sees Sokratis and goes into him. I thought Martin Atkinson not only refereed a fantastic game in a good manner, but he got this absolutely right.

"There's contact there, we don't not wanting too many yellows when contact's made but I think it's not a penalty, that's the key issue."
For clarity, the last bit on there, is whether Kane should have been booked for diving.
 

neilp

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For clarity, the last bit on there, is whether Kane should have been booked for diving.
That’s the trouble with the decision though, no one has said Kane dived, but they all seem to say that Kane went down because he stepped across the defender, as if this excuses why the clumsy oaf tumbled into Kane.
 

MK Yid

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That’s the trouble with the decision though, no one has said Kane dived, but they all seem to say that Kane went down because he stepped across the defender, as if this excuses why the clumsy oaf tumbled into Kane.
Many, in fact almost everyone is saying the contact was nowhere near enough to make him go over like he did.
In other words, he flopped/dived/exaggerated contact/cheated/impeded/deliberately ran into opponent to try and win a penalty/tried to deceive referee (delete whichever are appropriate).
Clearly not a penalty though in the view of almost everyone not Spurs connected, and even Spurs connected I am sure it is vast minority that really think otherwise
 
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'O Zio

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That’s the trouble with the decision though, no one has said Kane dived, but they all seem to say that Kane went down because he stepped across the defender, as if this excuses why the clumsy oaf tumbled into Kane.
It's one of those that's six of one and half a dozen of the other to me. Kane deliberately steps across so that he draws the foul, the defender is clumsy enough to fall for it hook line and sinker, and then Kane kind of exaggerates how much impact there was and falls over. The trouble is you can't really win as a striker because if you stay on your feet you never get the penalty, but if you intentionally fall over when fouled you get called a diver.
 

MK Yid

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Mike Riley has admitted to 4 VAR errors this season so far.

These I have been told are :-

Bournemouth player foul on David Silva (should have been penalty)
Tielemans should have been red card (referee only gave yellow)
Lamela foul on Rodri (should have been penalty)
Missed handball in build up to goal (Newcastle goal v. Watford).
 

Shadydan

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Mike Riley has admitted to 4 VAR errors this season so far.

These I have been told are :-

Bournemouth player foul on David Silva (should have been penalty)
Tielemans should have been red card (referee only gave yellow)
Lamela foul on Rodri (should have been penalty)
Missed handball in build up to goal (Newcastle goal v. Watford).
You have been told?
 
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